1 hour ago, FFGMerda said:Fun!? 5xwings is an op list.
The meta has shifted. 5x beats triple aces. Maybe don't bring triple aces? Aces are still good but they can't go unassisted like they used to, which IMHO is a very good thing.
They used to be everything, now they're one option among many.
2 hours ago, FFGMerda said:Fun!? 5xwings is an op list.
Its a solid list no doubt. That said, the # of lists in hyperspace that can easily handle the 5x matchup is uh....
30 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:Its a solid list no doubt. That said, the # of lists in hyperspace that can easily handle the 5x matchup is uh....
If 15 people in portugal can't beat it in the first month, its clearly the best list in the game
8 hours ago, FFGMerda said:Fun!? 5xwings is an op list. Last friday i participate on a 16 players HS tournament and the winner is, guess, 5 x's, 15 attack dices and 30 hit points.
If you would like to know what was the others list see the link above:
https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1477
5 X-Wings is a strong list, but as others have said, it's not the strongest list by a long shot. When you build a list, you need to have a plan to beat 5X, because a lot of people are flying it (partly because it's a good list, but also because people like X-Wings). Looking at the lists flown in that tournament, there are some strong lists there (such as the dooku + droids) but very few people seem to be exploring the possibilities offered by the new points changes. The first order players are notably ignoring the spectacularly efficient TIE/fo fighter, and a lot of the other lists just look like pre-points-change lists with slight adjustments. With that in mind, it's not surprising that 5X won.
I am intrigued by the Dengar/Manaroo/Fenn list, though. I'm not a big fan of Dengar (he's expensive and easily blocked) but I've been eyeing off Manaroo with 000 for a while now. I'm certainly not surprised that list came second, they are innovating and making use of the points changes a lot more than the other players.
Besides all that, 5X is still a legal list in extended, so I'm not sure how you can use 5X as a complaint against the hyperspace format.
My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently. FFG did the opposite.. why?
Here in Australia we have 1 system open in the entire country. Yes the first store champs is supposed to be HS, but who's going to police us convicts if we decide not to? FFG have shown they don't care much for this part of the planet, so they certainly aren't. Even if stores do play by the rules its maybe 2 tournaments for HS for the average Aussie player. Nobody is going to play HS casually when they are allowed to play extended and have no meaningful tournaments to practice for. **** there's only 4 SOs slated for North America right now, with a combined total of 60x the population of Aus. Even if the number of SOs doubles to round out the year, its such a tiny pool of the overall player base.
In my eyes this is a massive wasted opportunity. They should have made 'The Road to Worlds' all hyperspace. It would have kept extended as is for casual play, and kept the comp play balanced and evolving. Why not use this format more extensively? Even the S tier players are saying the new hyperspace seems more balanced. If that's coming from the top, why not make THE top event use that format?
Edited by BVRCH9 hours ago, FFGMerda said:Fun!? 5xwings is an op list. Last friday i participate on a 16 players HS tournament and the winner is, guess, 5 x's, 15 attack dices and 30 hit points.
If you would like to know what was the others list see the link above:
Because the results of one small tournament held in the early days of the meta when people are still figuring everything else out should totally be taken as definitive evidence of a given list's power level.
IMO, 5X is going to end up being tier 1.5, maybe even tier 2. It will take the occasional win, particularly early on when it's raw stats can bully the people doing science on other factions. But sooner or later, people will (re)learn how to fight against such lists and/or start teching against it and it will fall away a bit. It will be decent and a reasonable thing to use as a gatekeeper (ie. if your list can't handle 5X you should change it so it can... because if it can't handle 5X, it also won't handle the squads that can ), but it won't be a dominant meta force.
35 minutes ago, BVRCH said:My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently. FFG did the opposite.. why?
Here in Australia we have 1 system open in the entire country. Yes the first store champs is supposed to be HS, but who's going to police us convicts if we decide not to? FFG have shown they don't care much for this part of the planet, so they certainly aren't. Even if stores do play by the rules its maybe 2 tournaments for HS for the average Aussie player. Nobody is going to play HS casually when they are allowed to play extended and have no meaningful tournaments to practice for. **** there's only 4 SOs slated for North America right now, with a combined total of 60x the population of Aus. Even if the number of SOs doubles to round out the year, its such a tiny pool of the overall player base.
In my eyes this is a massive wasted opportunity. They should have made 'The Road to Worlds' all hyperspace. It would have kept extended as is for casual play, and kept the comp play balanced and evolving. Why not use this format more extensively? Even the S tier players are saying the new hyperspace seems more balanced. If that's coming from the top, why not make THE top event use that format?
I agree, hyperspace is a much more interesting format, and it should be the main competitive format for reasons of balance, fun, and profit (for FFG).
Personally, I would still play hyperspace over extended for casual play, and I suspect many store leagues will alternate between the two.
I think the reason FFG haven't made hyperspace more prevalent is because they are often very cautious and hesitant when introducing rotation into their games. Their plan for this year looks like a trial for making hyperspace more prevalent - they can look at sales performance and player reactions in both halves of the year, and they can look at how many stores run hyperspace tourneys in the second half. By having hyperspace forced on us for the first half, many players might realise that it is indeed a better format and run with it. At any rate, I'd expect to see some more changes in 2021 based on how things go this year.
1 hour ago, BVRCH said:My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently. FFG did the opposite.. why?
Here in Australia we have 1 system open in the entire country. Yes the first store champs is supposed to be HS, but who's going to police us convicts if we decide not to? FFG have shown they don't care much for this part of the planet, so they certainly aren't. Even if stores do play by the rules its maybe 2 tournaments for HS for the average Aussie player. Nobody is going to play HS casually when they are allowed to play extended and have no meaningful tournaments to practice for. **** there's only 4 SOs slated for North America right now, with a combined total of 60x the population of Aus. Even if the number of SOs doubles to round out the year, its such a tiny pool of the overall player base.
In my eyes this is a massive wasted opportunity. They should have made 'The Road to Worlds' all hyperspace. It would have kept extended as is for casual play, and kept the comp play balanced and evolving. Why not use this format more extensively? Even the S tier players are saying the new hyperspace seems more balanced. If that's coming from the top, why not make THE top event use that format?
Did you miss X-Wing in 2019?
They tried that with having the major tourneys leading up to Worlds be Hyperspace (Hyperspace Qualifiers, and Hyperspace Cups, and everything else). Its not as popular a format as its fans would like it to be.
The System Open series leading to Coruscant Invitational is a good place for it, as that has typically been an alternate format for proven competitive players, but the main format of X-Wing is Extended.
22 minutes ago, gadwag said:I agree, hyperspace is a much more interesting format, and it should be the main competitive format for reasons of balance, fun, and profit (for FFG).
Personally, I would still play hyperspace over extended for casual play, and I suspect many store leagues will alternate between the two.
I totally understand that, and you wouldn't be the only one. However with extended being the primary format its very easy for many to just follow suit and play extended the majority of the time, as there's no incentive outside of personal preference.
If Hyperspace were the primary format, it would be a much more even decision as hyperspace is the more restrictive of the two.
58 minutes ago, gadwag said:I think the reason FFG haven't made hyperspace more prevalent is because they are often very cautious and hesitant when introducing rotation into their games. Their plan for this year looks like a trial for making hyperspace more prevalent - they can look at sales performance and player reactions in both halves of the year, and they can look at how many stores run hyperspace tourneys in the second half. By having hyperspace forced on us for the first half, many players might realise that it is indeed a better format and run with it. At any rate, I'd expect to see some more changes in 2021 based on how things go this year.
I agree with that, and I'm hoping they will indeed start changing OP over the next 12-18 months too.
On 1/21/2020 at 2:58 PM, kris40k said:Did you miss X-Wing in 2019?
They tried that with having the major tourneys leading up to Worlds be Hyperspace (Hyperspace Qualifiers, and Hyperspace Cups, and everything else). Its not as popular a format as its fans would like it to be.
The System Open series leading to Coruscant Invitational is a good place for it, as that has typically been an alternate format for proven competitive players, but the main format of X-Wing is Extended.
Did you miss X-wing in 2019?
That was all with the 'black box' regulation for hyperspace. It was a completely pointless format last year. With the new restrictions for this year it will operate like it should have from the get go, as a proper curated format.
Edited by BVRCHAgreed, last year the hyperspace format was bland and meaningless. No one had any idea why they added the ships they did, and there was no clear roadmap for additions or rotations. 2019 hyperspace can't really be compared to 2020 hyperspace.
On 1/17/2020 at 9:13 AM, Hawkstrike said:Why not? Multiple ways to play the game give you variety and new ways to challenge yourself.
Might as well ask why Epic? Why missions? Why Aces High?
I agree more is generally better, but you need to have something uniting the playerbase.
we currently have some super fun fringe stuff (aces high, epic, hotac, missions) and 2 tournament formats. We should have one "standard" format, one tourney format, and bonus fringe stuff on the side. As it stands theres waaay too much going on for casuals or noobs so the playerbase is shrinking. when the game has dense rules and 300+ pilots with over 100+ potential upgrades it gets to be super niche game, and when the points shift and sometimes certain cards can or cant be played... its a lot to absorb. at a certain point saying "git good" is not a solution to new players and casuals getting overwhelmed or turned off, and hyperspace is part of that density
3 hours ago, BVRCH said:My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently. FFG did the opposite.. why?
Here in Australia we have 1 system open in the entire country. Yes the first store champs is supposed to be HS, but who's going to police us convicts if we decide not to? FFG have shown they don't care much for this part of the planet, so they certainly aren't. Even if stores do play by the rules its maybe 2 tournaments for HS for the average Aussie player. Nobody is going to play HS casually when they are allowed to play extended and have no meaningful tournaments to practice for. **** there's only 4 SOs slated for North America right now, with a combined total of 60x the population of Aus. Even if the number of SOs doubles to round out the year, its such a tiny pool of the overall player base.
In my eyes this is a massive wasted opportunity. They should have made 'The Road to Worlds' all hyperspace. It would have kept extended as is for casual play, and kept the comp play balanced and evolving. Why not use this format more extensively? Even the S tier players are saying the new hyperspace seems more balanced. If that's coming from the top, why not make THE top event use that format?
One: you have to be careful, not making a game too expensive, by forcing players to buy new ships all the time. Old players with extensive collections do not care that much. But for a new player aiming for competitive play? E.g. a newbie who has just bought 2 or more Nantexes? Would be really sad now, if HS was the format.
X-wing ships are not cheap nowadays, together with the complexity creep accelerating really fast right now, these can be steep hurdles for new players interested on competitive play!
Also people have different preferences what they like to fly (e.g. some Scum players really dislike the Mando dominance in HS scum ships)
Two: in this case FFG would have to SERIOUSLY step up their distribution and get a grip on releases. Cause in Southern America, East Europe, North Europe (do not know for Asia) you really have problems to get enough of the new ships (or at all) before the already next points change comes (while simultaneously Australia and Barnes and Nobles releases come weeks too early).
3 hours ago, BVRCH said:Here in Australia we have 1 system open in the entire country. Yes the first store champs is supposed to be HS, but who's going to police us convicts if we decide not to? FFG have shown they don't care much for this part of the planet, so they certainly aren't. Even if stores do play by the rules its maybe 2 tournaments for HS for the average Aussie player. Nobody is going to play HS casually when they are allowed to play extended and have no meaningful tournaments to practice for. **** there's only 4 SOs slated for North America right now, with a combined total of 60x the population of Aus. Even if the number of SOs doubles to round out the year, its such a tiny pool of the overall player base.
Speak for yourself. The entire local scene here in Brisbane is playing nothing but Hyperspace at the moment. Just the fact that people don't have to worry about stuff like Inquisitors, regen Delta-7Bs, Whisper or Ensnare has been enough incentive.
As for the first round of Store Champs being HS, if my local stores were to try and run them as Extended (and therefore make people have to worry about stuff like Inquisitors, regen Delta-7Bs, Whisper and Ensnare again) I am fairly certain there would be an actual riot.
1 hour ago, Managarmr said:One: you have to be careful, not making a game too expensive, by forcing players to buy new ships all the time. Old players with extensive collections do not care that much. But for a new player aiming for competitive play? E.g. a newbie who has just bought 2 or more Nantexes? Would be really sad now, if HS was the format.
Look at this another way: If a new player wanted to be competitive in the extended format, they have to buy a large number of ships right off the bat. If they are not collecting a prequel faction, they will also need a conversion kit and some second-hand 1.0 ships. That's an enormous up-front investment of time and money, which will turn off most new players from competitive play. Furthermore, new ships will also enter the extended format, and players will want to purchase them to make sure they have access to the latest upgrades, pilots, etc. Thus, extended has a similar ongoing cost to hyperspace (perhaps slightly less if hyperspace players buy multiples of ships) and extended still has a much higher initial cost.
With hyperspace format, a new player has a much smaller up-front cost, as they have a smaller pool of ships to choose from. Thus, they only need to buy enough ships to field a single squad, with maybe a small amount of variation. When rotation happens, they lose maybe 1-2 ships and buy a few new ships to replace them - ships they were probably going to buy anyway because they are new and interesting.
I agree in principle, though - if rotation is too fast, that will be a problem (and with no rereleases in the 2020 pipeline, it will be a problem for both old and new players).
1 hour ago, Managarmr said:X-wing ships are not cheap nowadays
X-Wing ships are still significantly cheaper than any other miniatures game, and are way cheaper than keeping up with rotation in Magic the Gathering.
1 hour ago, Managarmr said:together with the complexity creep accelerating really fast right now
Complexity creep is far less of a problem in hyperspace than it is in extended.
1 hour ago, Managarmr said:Two: in this case FFG would have to SERIOUSLY step up their distribution and get a grip on releases. Cause in Southern America, East Europe, North Europe (do not know for Asia) you really have problems to get enough of the new ships (or at all) before the already next points change comes (while simultaneously Australia and Barnes and Nobles releases come weeks too early).
Agreed
The entirety of the Hyperspace rules is a single giant NPE for me, it's the reason I completely abandoned any idea of doing any tournament play in X-Wing.
18 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:The entirety of the Hyperspace rules is a single giant NPE for me, it's the reason I completely abandoned any idea of doing any tournament play in X-Wing.
Care to expound?
Just now, svelok said:Care to expound?
Because I have no interest at all in taking part in a game where I am being artificially limited in what I am allowed to field. I've paid for all the little plastic spaceships, FFG have made a ton of money out of me, to then turn around and say what basically amounts to:
"The thing is, we'd really rather you didn't have any advantages, despite the fact that you've been playing this game for years and have really invested into it and have brought all the expansions and upgrades what we would really rather do is limit what you are allowed to play with."
It's a BS format that completely killed my interest in any and all tournament play.
I was considering coming back to try out some tournament play after being completely put off it in 1st Ed; I went to several tournaments when we were playing 1st Ed and at each one of them I had a terrible time, I played against people who were trying to rush me so I would make poor choices, constantly belittled both my play style and my lists and in one case blatantly just cheated (moved their ship illegally) and then denied it when I called a TO, who declared it was just "your word against his". 1st Ed tournament play was a horrible experience for me, I was thinking about going back to tournament play under 2nd Ed to see if anything had changed but all the local tournaments were Hyperspace Only and none of the ships I enjoyed flying were legal in that format, despite them being perfectly legal in the base game. It's a game mode designed to punish players who have been in the game for a while and I don't want anything to do with it.
So I just play on my kitchen table with my friends instead.
11 hours ago, BVRCH said:My question is why isn't Hyperspace the primary format? Most other games that have a restricted format, run that format as their primary competitive format in order to balance and refresh the meta frequently and consistently.
If you are talking about MtG, Standard is a primary format because it (1) encourages card sales and (2) it evens the playing field in THAT environment. FFG went a different route by making 2.0 rather than banning cards/ships/pilots outright in a 1.0 setting. FFG also has points adjustments as a leveler. If WotC could modify the mana cost on cards, then Standard would make less sense in regard to reason 2.
30 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:The thing is, we'd really rather you didn't have any advantages, despite the fact that you've been playing this game for years and have really invested into it and have brought all the expansions
To press a bit... this makes it sound like you think new players should be explicitly penalized and the game should be explicitly "pay to win".
32 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:none of the ships I enjoyed flying were legal in that format
Out of curiosity, such as?
The bad experiences you had in first edition are unrelated to tournament format but are quite unfortunate. That sort of thing would turn anyone off and isn't behavior we as a community should tolerate, for exactly the reason that it drives people away.
6 minutes ago, svelok said:To press a bit... this makes it sound like you think new players should be explicitly penalized and the game should be explicitly "pay to win".
Not at all, but to turn it around. Why should I be penalised for being an existing player? Because that it what Hyperspace is, it's a format explicitly designed to penalise 1st edition players who have paid to convert to 2nd edition.
6 minutes ago, svelok said:Out of curiosity, such as?
Honestly couldn't tell you, probably first order or empire is the best I could do, it was a year ago at least but mostly I am a First Order/Imperial player.
3 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:Not at all, but to turn it around. Why should I be penalised for being an existing player? Because that it what Hyperspace is, it's a format explicitly designed to penalise 1st edition players who have paid to convert to 2nd edition.
Well, I couldn't disagree with that characterization more. It's a format designed to encourage building different styles of lists using different pieces, while extending a level playing field to both old and new players and promoting a distinct meta from extended, in changing both what a player can field as well as what they can expect to go up against.
4 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:Honestly couldn't tell you, probably first order or empire is the best I could do, it was a year ago at least but mostly I am a First Order/Imperial player.
Every FO ship but the Upsilon is hyper legal, though. So is it that you're more unhappy with the very principal of such a format rather than it's actual effect on what you personally want to field?
4 minutes ago, svelok said:Well, I couldn't disagree with that characterization more. It's a format designed to encourage building different styles of lists using different pieces, while extending a level playing field to both old and new players and promoting a distinct meta from extended, in changing both what a player can field as well as what they can expect to go up against.
To me it's a format that punishes existing players while favouring new ones. I have no problem with there being a new player friendly format, but when that is all that is available it's just not something I'm interested in.
I think we just have very different expectations as to what should be the main format of this game and what interests us.
4 minutes ago, svelok said:Every FO ship but the Upsilon is hyper legal, though. So is it that you're more unhappy with the very principal of such a format rather than it's actual effect on what you personally want to field?
Oh, it's very much both. About a year ago I looked at trying it out, got extremely frustrated with the limitations it puts on you and decided not to bother, looked around for an Extended format tournament I could play in and found precisely none. That tells me that FFG just don't want players like me to take part in the official play and honestly I'm ok with that, every single experience I've had with tournament play has sucked the big one so I just stay completely clear of it now.
I am also fully aware that I am probably firmly in the "Old man yells at cloud" part of X-Wing, but I'm ok with that as well. I have fun playing with my friends when we can find the time and I have never regretted ignoring the tournament scene.
3 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:Oh, it's very much both. About a year ago I looked at trying it out, got extremely frustrated with the limitations it puts on you and decided not to bother,
A year ago the entirety of FO was in hyperspace.
4 minutes ago, UberMunchkin said:looked around for an Extended format tournament I could play in and found precisely none. That tells me that FFG just don't want players like me to take part in the official play and honestly I'm ok with that, every single experience I've had with tournament play has sucked the big one so I just stay completely clear of it now..
Every organized play format other than the System Open Series is currently extended.
3 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:A year ago the entirety of FO was in hyperspace.
Then the fault is mine for not remembering correctly what I was trying to do. What I do remember clearly is trying, multiple times, to create a list that I could play under that format and every single one of them was illegal due to format restrictions. Which in turn was incredibly unfun.
3 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:Every organized play format other than the System Open Series is currently extended.
Well again your experience must be different to mine because when I've looked locally the only available organised play options have been Hyperspace Format only. That might be an artifact of shops near me only running a small number of games or a number of other things. Doesn't really matter. What does matter is that there was nothing available to me that wasn't Hyperspace format.
Also, this was all then. As for now, I currently have zero interest in playing in any kind of organised play event, the Hyperspace stuff completely killed any interest I had in playing competitively. (Which frankly wasn't that high due to the terrible tournament experience I had under 1st Ed).