3 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

*Explicit* that.

Most of my faction/collection is 1e release only. I couldn't be more vehemently opposed to this.

Not that I’m saying they are *going* to do this. But if they did do this it would precisely be because of comments like that.

If you aren’t buying 2nd Ed product they’ve no strong reason to support your preferred mode of play.

Given how soft FFG usually is at introducing rotation, I'd expect them to make the extended format a side-event format before binning it completely. That way they don't have to put too much effort into it but it is still a fun, reasonably balanced casual format, like epic.

has someone got a link to whats legal in hyperspace rigt now?

Looking at the top tables at LVO, this is why Hyperspace . The points adjustment left everything that dominated the meta mostly intact, but next to none of it is in Hyperspace. Want a new meta, want games that don't look like they did before? Hyperspace is the place to find it.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Want a new meta, want games that don't look like they did before? Hyperspace is the place to find it.

They’re about to be different anyway with the new pilots pack plus the new chassis. The meta always shifts when new things are added.

I am honestly not that worried about it: the only real bogeymen got handled. Regen is costlier, and Sear swarm can’t bring everything and the kitchen sink. I don’t mind jedi being good. I don’t mind swarms being good. But they’re n the only good things, and both have been brought down some with the changes outlined.

There is not one list that I saw on LVO stream that did not have something that wasn't hyperspace legal. (I didn't see all games.).

All the things that would have to be removed for hyperspace would have made the lists more fun to play against.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Looking at the top tables at LVO, this is why Hyperspace . The points adjustment left everything that dominated the meta mostly intact, but next to none of it is in Hyperspace. Want a new meta, want games that don't look like they did before? Hyperspace is the place to find it.

I agree with this, and also fear it.

This doesn't mean Extended is broken. 6 of 7 factions in the Top 8. Triple aces, swarm, ace+support all represented. Lots of interesting new things made cut. The final table, despite being two familiar lists showcased a a TON of REALLY GOOD PLAY. The maneuvers were interesting, the choices the pilots made mattered. For two hours . Anyone that thinks Extended is bad is out of their minds.

Sometimes being able to play a list for more than 3-6 months is nice. Sometimes you want a big shakeup, something that feels different. Sometimes, you want to feel creative but don't want to be relegated to the bottom tables. Fresh is also good. We need fresh. Hyperspace brings us that.

Both formats are important.

9 hours ago, Greedo_Sharpshooter said:

has someone got a link to whats legal in hyperspace rigt now?

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

just click the dropdown and switch to Hyperspace, then pick the faction you like best and have fun! I'm currently trying to figure out where Poe fits in all this, the points just don't count up the way I want them to and I love that they're making me make choices in my list instead of giving me everything.

7 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

I agree with this, and also fear it.

This doesn't mean Extended is broken. 6 of 7 factions in the Top 8. Triple aces, swarm, ace+support all represented. Lots of interesting new things made cut. The final table, despite being two familiar lists showcased a a TON of REALLY GOOD PLAY. The maneuvers were interesting, the choices the pilots made mattered. For two hours . Anyone that thinks Extended is bad is out of their minds.

Sometimes being able to play a list for more than 3-6 months is nice. Sometimes you want a big shakeup, something that feels different. Sometimes, you want to feel creative but don't want to be relegated to the bottom tables. Fresh is also good. We need fresh. Hyperspace brings us that.

Both formats are important.

Broken or bad isn't necessarily a term I'd use for Extended. However, FFG made very few changes to top-performing lists. It's strange to have a points update, and then for very little to change.

9 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

They’re about to be different anyway with the new pilots pack plus the new chassis. The meta always shifts when new things are added.

I mean, we usually say that about points updates. Doesn't really seem to be the case this time.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Broken or bad isn't necessarily a term I'd use for Extended. However, FFG made very few changes to top-performing lists. It's strange to have a points update, and then for very little to change.

Well, that doesn't surprise me. We don't really want to see a cycle of anything good gets nerfed into the ground, do we?

FFG made a lot of changes to the lower end, and we'll see how the meta evolves. Extended seemed pretty healthy at Worlds, and it still seems pretty healthy, if a little static. I thought it was really cool to watch Paul play those vultures, there is clearly a lot of practice that goes into playing a list like that and it would be a shame if every six months FFG said "all your efforts mean nothing now" and nerfed vultures into obscurity.

I think that this split is really good for the game. The innovation will happen in Hyperspace, and it'll hopefully continue to have bigger changes during the points change. Extended will be a slower to change beast, where we shouldn't worry as much about what specific ships are on the table as watching people who are highly skilled with their list duke it out.

4 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Well, that doesn't surprise me. We don't really want to see a cycle of anything good gets nerfed into the ground, do we?

FFG made a lot of changes to the lower end, and we'll see how the meta evolves. Extended seemed pretty healthy at Worlds, and it still seems pretty healthy, if a little static. I thought it was really cool to watch Paul play those vultures, there is clearly a lot of practice that goes into playing a list like that and it would be a shame if every six months FFG said "all your efforts mean nothing now" and nerfed vultures into obscurity.

I think that this split is really good for the game. The innovation will happen in Hyperspace, and it'll hopefully continue to have bigger changes during the points change. Extended will be a slower to change beast, where we shouldn't worry as much about what specific ships are on the table as watching people who are highly skilled with their list duke it out.

Yep.

If FFG wants to keep strong stuff strong, the way to keep things from being stale is Hyperspace.

19 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Not that I’m saying they are *going* to do this. But if they did do this it would precisely be because of comments like that.

If you aren’t buying 2nd Ed product they’ve no strong reason to support your preferred mode of play.

I'm buying new in box old stock. But over half of my faction hasn't seen reprints either. Show me where I can buy a 2nd Ed Kihraxz fighter, Starviper, G1A, Kimogila, IG2000, HWK, Lancer, Quadjumper, scum Y-wing, or Scurrg.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Broken or bad isn't necessarily a term I'd use for Extended. However, FFG made very few changes to top-performing lists. It's strange to have a points update, and then for very little to change.

I mean, we usually say that about points updates. Doesn't really seem to be the case this time.

I think you may have different expectations for points updates than what the Developers do. The points updates aren't supposed to fully alter the meta, but tweak it. As such, any major shifts that happen won't necessarily be noticeable at first.

10 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

I think you may have different expectations for points updates than what the Developers do. The points updates aren't supposed to fully alter the meta, but tweak it. As such, any major shifts that happen won't necessarily be noticeable at first.

Thing is, those expectations of points updates were... kinda set by previous rounds of points updates? We've had two earlier big rounds of updates where overperforming lists got knocked down a peg or two.

50 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I'm buying new in box old stock. But over half of my faction hasn't seen reprints either. Show me where I can buy a 2nd Ed Kihraxz fighter, Starviper, G1A, Kimogila, IG2000, HWK, Lancer, Quadjumper, scum Y-wing, or Scurrg.

That's the point, you can't. And it looks like they decided that the market is too small to reprint these ships. And that means that your preference of format is not important because you won't pay FFG through your purchases.

That is not an accusation or anything of that sort, just a good explanation by SOTL as to why you shouldn't expect them to care too much about extended. Because caring about it costs them a lot of money. And, as you said yourself, they won't get that from you.

32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Thing is, those expectations of points updates were... kinda set by previous rounds of points updates? We've had two earlier big rounds of updates where overperforming lists got knocked down a peg or two.

But comparing it to the points update before this one, there also was a lot less diversity in the meta before those changes compared to this time. So in that way we maybe could expected it changing less this time.

And maybe if we give it a bit more time we will feel more effect from the changes when people test more things out.

1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:

I'm buying new in box old stock. But over half of my faction hasn't seen reprints either. Show me where I can buy a 2nd Ed Kihraxz fighter, Starviper, G1A, Kimogila, IG2000, HWK, Lancer, Quadjumper, scum Y-wing, or Scurrg.

You can’t, and FFG aren’t making money on old box stuff, they got paid for that years ago when it went into the supply chain.

They don’t want you to buy that stuff, they want you to buy Second Ed Z-95s and Fangs and YVs.

You’re precisely the person they would kill Extended for. Either you adapt to play new ships like they want and they win, or you quit and they don’t lose.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's the point, you can't. And it looks like they decided that the market is too small to reprint these ships. And that means that your preference of format is not important because you won't pay FFG through your purchases.

That is not an accusation or anything of that sort, just a good explanation by SOTL as to why you shouldn't expect them to care too much about extended. Because caring about it costs them a lot of money. And, as you said yourself, they won't get that from you.

I've spent somewhere around $700. They've gotten quite a bit of money from me, it hasn't all been spent on 1.0 stuff. I'm a paying customer, just give me something to buy. I've currently got huge ship conversion kit, epic battles, and 3 card packs(already bought 2) on order. If anything, scum with its high ship count is the whale faction.

Scum is a large faction too, by player count, pretty sure we outnumber the sequel faction players combined, one faction outnumbering two.

That said, if they went: "screw your collection, half your ships are now banned", I'd never give them another dime, EVER.

Which is why extended isn't going anywhere.

But don't be surprised when they start pushing Hyperspace more and more as the main format.

5 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Which is why extended isn't going anywhere.

But don't be surprised when they start pushing Hyperspace more and more as the main format.

It certainly seems inevitable. As long as they keep LCQ+ Worlds extended, I’m ok. I only play a handful of competitive events in a year anyway. My LGS is casual xwing centric so aside from a few of us training our group’s representatives at bigger events, doesn’t matter to me what the format is.

8 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

You can’t, and FFG aren’t making money on old box stuff, they got paid for that years ago when it went into the supply chain.

But he is freeing shelf space and working capital for the retailers, that may or may not use it to re-stock 2.0 x-wing.

And he is helping keep the game alive by playing it.

On 1/26/2020 at 6:28 PM, theBitterFig said:

Looking at the top tables at LVO, this is why Hyperspace . The points adjustment left everything that dominated the meta mostly intact, but next to none of it is in Hyperspace. Want a new meta, want games that don't look like they did before? Hyperspace is the place to find it.

When I started this conversation, I based the question on my understanding of the two formats put forward by FFG: Extended was for folks with 1.0 collections so they can play their ships (I appreciate this as I’ve seen companies NOT do this) and Hyperspace for folks new to the game who can have more equal footing in the array of options with which they can build.

Hyperspace confuses me now as there are whole ships that are 2.0 and not usable in Hyperspace.

I have not researched the Extended meta enough to confirm or deny your impression of it...but this drives at my main thought on the subject. “If” the Extended meta is stale because folks have uncovered and are leveraging imbalance, then FFG should work on that via points.

11 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

“If” the Extended meta is stale because folks have uncovered and are leveraging imbalance, then FFG should work on that via points.

FFG, at least in the short term, has shown they clearly don't want to do that. What then?

14 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

But he is freeing shelf space and working capital for the retailers, that may or may not use it to re-stock 2.0 x-wing.

FFG is not going to "hope" product is getting restocked. They want to know product is moving or they will stop making product.

Quote

And he is helping keep the game alive by playing it.

But not growing.

If the game is "alive" but in a vegetative state with no new products slated, no one is going to stay interested for very long.

38 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

“If” the Extended meta is stale because folks have uncovered and are leveraging imbalance, then FFG should work on that via points.

The more balanced the game is in extended, the more stale it is. Balance is great for longevity. Imbalance is great for excitement. Excitement keeps people playing.

Also, at this point, adding new ships isn't really enough to jazz up the meta. Luckily for us, there are so many ships available, that adding a couple more (of well designed, non-game-breaking ships) isn't really going to alter the meta overly much.

So, what Hyperspace allows FFG to do is create a solid, well-balanced (and thus kinda boring) game and jazz it up by creating a microcosm that breaks the rules without actually breaking the rules.

That last part is exactly "Why Hyperspace."

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

FFG, at least in the short term, has shown they clearly don't want to do that. What then?

This just... isn't true?

It is true that they didn't nerf many of the top meta performers directly (or at least not by much, looking at you 1-pt Obi-Wan...)

That does not mean that they have not been effectively nerfed. The preponderance of 5-6x 3-attack ships that are coming into the meta now means that arc-dodgers will have a much harder time.

Previous nerfs seemed ineffective at changing the fundamental overpowered nature of I5-6 double-repositioning aces (especially with regen) because counters did not exist; raising the price rather meant that a different ace would take their place, not that they would have more arcs to dodge and thus a harder time. What the developers decided was that directly nerfing them again was not the approach they chose to take. Rather than pushing the I5-6 double-repositioning pilots further up, they brought their direct counters further down (and greatly increased regen).

I very strongly do believe that the upcoming Extended season will be quite quite different from what we've seen before:

31-pt TIE Interceptors aren't something new for Hyperspace; they're something new for extended.

62-pt Resistance Sympathizers aren't something for Hyperspace, they're something for extended.

28-pt dedicated torrents aren't something for Hyperspace, they're something for extended.

26-pt TIE Aggressors aren't something for Hyperspace, they're something for extended.

39-pt Cavern Angels Zealots and 40-pt Black Sun Aces and 36-pt Saber Aces and 63-pt Trajsim Proton Starfortresses and 22-pt Binayre Pirates? They're all there for Extended

All hail the new Extended meta.

But I still love Hyperspace!