When 2.0 started, Hyperspace made sense to me as a way to put new players on a more even footing with folks who have a bunch of converted 1.0 stuff.

Outside of that, I don’t really get the purpose as we have a game where the company is readily able (and willing) to adjust points.

Why not? Multiple ways to play the game give you variety and new ways to challenge yourself.

Might as well ask why Epic? Why missions? Why Aces High?

Hmm... a game format where most of the NPE mechanics are absent. All in.

A cynic would call it the "Sell more new ships format."

An optimist would call it the "Play without the worst offenders format."

Most of the toys I like are in the format and cheaper but I understand why others might be upset. Overall though, I'm just glad to see them trying something different with Hyperspace.

28 minutes ago, Cr0aker said:

Hmm... a game format where most of the NPE mechanics are absent. All in.

But that is actually what I am driving at. If something causes NPEs and dominates the meta, it is better attended to via points from what I can see.

I am not saying I hate alternate play options. I love scenario based minis games like Rangers of Shadow Deep and look forward to the new battle field conditions etc.

Hyperspace is not scenario or story driven, so the restrictions seem oddball to me now that some of our “I only have 2.0 ships” players have some of their ships and pilots booted off the list of allowables.

1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Outside of that, I don’t really get the purpose as we have a game where the company is readily able (and willing) to adjust points.

Point changes can't solve everything, and it shouldn't be the only balancing lever at their disposal.

Hyperspace is the only format that looks fun right now.

Exactly right @miguelj , and that's the verbage they used like a year ago in a stream to describe one of the many goals of second edition. They wanted to have a lot of levers to be able to adjust the game.

Also points in fact cannot remove a NPE piece. It can lower it's rate of occurrence at best, but the mechanical functions of the piece remain, and are often still used. For instance I still know individuals who would bring an guadjumper for the same benefit it brought before, willing to pay the extra it now costs. So my game experience with those persons is not much changed, there's just fewer of them. A guadjumper isn't in every scum list I see, but they're still around occasionally.

FFG further had already stated that when they have what they call 'S-tier', what we call NPE, they want to limit it's viability and bump it down to A-tier, but they "definitely don't want to remove it". So that's your Extended format. It's all still there, but everyone has to play A-tier stuff, as they will keep trying to bump the S level down, and your B-tier works as your dark horse to keep it seeming fresh.

1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

When 2.0 started, Hyperspace made sense to me as a way to put new players on a more even footing with folks who have a bunch of converted 1.0 stuff.

Outside of that, I don’t really get the purpose as we have a game where the company is readily able (and willing) to adjust points.

To sell new ships and keep the game alive?

Case-in-point: I just figured out what I thought was a kinda degenerate list. 6 Trade Fed droids with Struts and Two Bombardment Drones with Trajectory Sim and Proton Bombs. It all fits right at 200. But guess what doesn't fly in hyperspace? Traj Simulator. Hyperspace is good. Hyperspace is life.

Edit: Oh good force, you could do three Bombers with Tragedy and Proton and 4 Trade Feds... Yuck.

44 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

But that is actually what I am driving at. If something causes NPEs and dominates the meta, it is better attended to via points from what I can see.

I am not saying I hate alternate play options. I love scenario based minis games like Rangers of Shadow Deep and look forward to the new battle field conditions etc.

Hyperspace is not scenario or story driven, so the restrictions seem oddball to me now that some of our “I only have 2.0 ships” players have some of their ships and pilots booted off the list of allowables.

What removal from Hyperspace does is that it allows ships/upgrades which dominate the meta to be removed, but while also allowing folks who enjoy playing them to keep doing so.

Folks who want to fly, say, 7B Anakin can do it. Folks who want to play Ensnare Nantex can. They haven't been completely deleted due to being nerfed with points into oblivion. There should be balance in Extended, to be sure, but Hyperspace threads the needle of preserving what a lot of folks love, and what others don't necessarily want to bother with.

Removing a scatter-shot of pilots like Wedge and Mace, removing a bunch of upgrades like 7B and Pattern Analyzer and Crack Shot kind of makes it so that Hyperspace actually has a reason to exist now. When it was all upgrades, all pilots, nearly all ships, it was just a mildly watered down Extended that didn't serve a function.

Love it or hate it, Hyperspace has become an actual split.

1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

But that is actually what I am driving at. If something causes NPEs and dominates the meta, it is better attended to via points from what I can see.

I am not saying I hate alternate play options. I love scenario based minis games like Rangers of Shadow Deep and look forward to the new battle field conditions etc.

Hyperspace is not scenario or story driven, so the restrictions seem oddball to me now that some of our “I only have 2.0 ships” players have some of their ships and pilots booted off the list of allowables.

But if you just price nerf entire ships like the nantex what is the point of having them? 2 formats is good. Epic is good. (second hawkstrike here). It is hands down the best move OP has made yet.

I’ve got mixed feelings to be honest. But, I was also not a fan of hyperspace at the onset. Took some doing to get me to buy in, so it could just be the shift bothering me.

I mean, at least this way hyperspace isn’t just “rerelease only” mode? It actually is different.

My heart will always be in extended and epic....but I don’t hate what’s been done either. I’ll probably still try and fly a HS event or two.

3 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Outside of that, I don’t really get the purpose as we have a game where the company is readily able (and willing) to adjust points.

I haven't played it, but I see plenty of posts from people who really enjoy it. Isn't "players like it" justification enough?

(

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

A cynic would call it the "Sell more new ships format."

A certain truth is there. I called the TIE Int being dropped, because of course FFG wants to sell ba:s. So people playing HS and loving high end aces/arc dodgers will shift to FO.

I mean, partly this is OK, because if FFG does not sell ships, this game will die prematurely. And there are some hints of X-wing not selling enough 2.0 stuff.

But, with this points update, and HS selection, e.g. Republic only players got slapped in the face in HS, money wise. The ship of which there are 2 pieces in their starter pack is now illegal. And of the Jedi from the same pack are only 3 pilots of the pack left. So out of 12 pilots in their starter they lost 9. And the Arc pack, 30dollars apiece, lost the swarm enabler and the cheap generic. So clone fielding players are wrecked. Just saying.

3 hours ago, Cr0aker said:

Hmm... a game format where most of the NPE mechanics are absent. All in.

With the risk that FFG over time do not bother to adress issues hard enough, by just dumping them off to extended.

They could also introduce more levers, like more of the limited mechanics aka dots, like on Bombardment drones.

Also, First Order got to keep a lot of NPEs, gets Vonrekt (can be quite a NPE), gets regen, and gets more of this "you get punished for doing the one and only objective in this game, damaging your opponent".

Most here are really excited, but my gut feeling says HS might be quite lopsided, as some removals and keepings are not totally logical. Lets see 3 months from now.

Why would we not want two formats? I'm glad they both exist

27 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

With the risk that FFG over time do not bother to adress issues hard enough, by just dumping them off to extended.

Considering worlds and the prime champs are both extended, it seems to me they’re invested in keeping the game fully balanced.

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I’ve got mixed feelings to be honest. But, I was also not a fan of hyperspace at the onset. Took some doing to get me to buy in, so it could just be the shift bothering me.

I mean, at least this way hyperspace isn’t just “rerelease only” mode? It actually is different.

My heart will always be in extended and epic....but I don’t hate what’s been done either. I’ll probably still try and fly a HS event or two.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. I was never, ever averse to new and different ways to play the game, but my experiences with Hyperspace so far haven't been the best. And if I'm being honest, I much prefer the freedom and variety of Extended.

I've attended seven System Opens in the last three years. This year, none booked so far. Having to travel to play most of the time, I prefer the multi day events to max my gaming time, but the switch to Hyperspace format just leaves me disinterested.

Putting NPE aside, having two different formats means two different metas. If you aren't feeling the meta in one format, switch. Nothing wrong with playing both texas hold em and straight poker.

11 hours ago, Managarmr said:

A certain truth is there. I called the TIE Int being dropped, because of course FFG wants to sell ba:s. So people playing HS and loving high end aces/arc dodgers will shift to FO.

I mean, partly this is OK, because if FFG does not sell ships, this game will die prematurely. And there are some hints of X-wing not selling enough 2.0 stuff.

I'm glad you are bringing this up, but there's another side to the coin. Rather than 2.0 not being purchased as much, FFG miscalculated and produced too much of the 2.0 stuff early on. I don't know how this happened. Maybe they failed to anticipate people paring down to two or three factions and the resulting secondary market. Maybe there aren't as many new players as they expected.

But regardless, it's apparent that they finally decided to do something about the surplus of 1.0 ships because the 2.0 Raider was cancelled, along with TIE Reaper and Saw's Renegades. This way shops (including the FFG online store) can sell off their old stock before producing more product.

The reduction in cost of several ships below the "breakpoint" is clearly a part of this. The 2.0 TIE/sk, TIE/fo, and T-65 X-wing were not moving off shelves very quickly, and they all can fit more ships in a 200 point squad after the points adjustment. Definitely not a coincidence.

I don't think FFG is struggling to sell this game, but I do think they misjudged the appropriate amount of early 2.0 re-release products to manufacture, and now they're trying to recoup costs. I already had 5 TIE/sk and 6 TIE/fo, but I went ahead and bought another of each to support the game and, more truthfully, to be fully prepared for large scale Epic Battles. Fortunately for me I can now run those 6 strikers in a standard game, too!

18 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I've attended seven System Opens in the last three years. This year, none booked so far. Having to travel to play most of the time, I prefer the multi day events to max my gaming time, but the switch to Hyperspace format just leaves me disinterested.

First, I’m envious you had that much flexibility to go to so many.

Second, I completely understand your position this year. I don’t know if I’d go to one to play hyperspace either.

I really liked the model ffg had last year with the hyperspace being the local store events that you could win a seat at worlds (well, by winning the event not like I’d ever do that) and having the bigger multi-day things being extended. Hopefully they return to that next year?

I can’t make Adepticon work this year, but at least there were side events to make it up. I’d happily fly in the epic format event for prize tickets and break up the hyper games that way.

That said, I’m happy there will be an LCQ for worlds and that it’s all extended. Maybe use your System Open funds you saved to come on up to Minnesota in October? It’s before the snow hits

8 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I'm glad you are bringing this up, but there's another side to the coin. Rather than 2.0 not being purchased as much, FFG miscalculated and produced too much of the 2.0 stuff early on. I don't know how this happened. Maybe they failed to anticipate people paring down to two or three factions and the resulting secondary market. Maybe there aren't as many new players as they expected.

The reduction in cost of several ships below the "breakpoint" is clearly a part of this. The 2.0 TIE/sk, TIE/fo, and T-65 X-wing were not moving off shelves very quickly, and they all can fit more ships in a 200 point squad after the points adjustment. Definitely not a coincidence.

Good call; I hadn’t been paying close enough attention to notice all the break points were 2.0 rereleases.

I might need to do a re-check of what I have and if there’s ones I “need” more of. I only have 2 strikers but I’m unlikely to fly the big striker list. I might buy one t65 pack just to have 5 xwings although I can legally field 5 as it stands in terms of models + dials (as long as no one is upset that a ship has a unique name on the dial: I went a little nuts and picked up 3x different names pilot dials at worlds prize wall). Then again, maybe I don’t have the cardboard for 5x blues.

FO? Man I’m set even for epic - I have 9 tie FOs and only 7 dials so...

I can’t imagine them not planning for folks pairing down in factions when they used that as a selling point of 2.0 however. I would guess the new player body count is lower than expected and the surplus state of 1.0 product (especially second hand or clearance product) has made it easier for new players to buy a lot / buy on sale and then pick up a conversion kit. One player in my group has literally only bought a scum conversion kit and the Lando’s falcon for 2.0: everything else has been picking up 1.0 bits here and there. He’s been borrowing my t65 damage deck until ffg releases that scum deck.

2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I would guess the new player body count is lower than expected and the surplus state of 1.0 product (especially second hand or clearance product) has made it easier for new players to buy a lot / buy on sale and then pick up a conversion kit. One player in my group has literally only bought a scum conversion kit and the Lando’s falcon for 2.0: everything else has been picking up 1.0 bits here and there. He’s been borrowing my t65 damage deck until ffg releases that scum deck.

Scum player here:

While I've bought the 2.0 starter unlike that player, it just has too many essentials(not just the deck), the rest of my 2.0 purchases amount to: 2x mining guild TIE, 1 Lando's falcon, 1 conversion kit.

I have 37 scum ships, 4 of them being 2.0.

I have come 180 on the new HS format. I am glad that HS isn’t just limited extended, I like that I have to think a lot harder on list building rather than fall back on old meta saviours.
people complained about OP Jedi regen 7B’s, they’re gone, Vader is a different beast without afterburners etc.

I like what they have done.

Even with points changes, extended will become stale and bloated, and some ships will be forever competing with one another for similar roles.

Hyperspace, on the other hand, allows FFG to radically change the meta and create a shifting, tuned competitive environment. That sounds much more fun to me. Making the format accessible to new players is also very important - ideally, new players should be always joining the game.

Of course, hyperspace will also incentivize sales, which is important if you want the game to continue.

On 1/17/2020 at 3:19 PM, svelok said:

Hyperspace is the only format that looks fun right now.

Fun!? 5xwings is an op list. Last friday i participate on a 16 players HS tournament and the winner is, guess, 5 x's, 15 attack dices and 30 hit points.

If you would like to know what was the others list see the link above:

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1477