8 hours ago, Icelom said:

Its the generics that have me baffled.

First order provocator 45pts for 3a, 3e, 2h, 2s and a good dial and reposition ability

Empire Alpha Squadron Interceptor + shield upgrade 39pts for a 3a, 3e, 3h, 1s and a good dial and reposition ability

Real hard to justify that 6 extra points. Not to mention i can just run the alpha 8pts lighter without the shield if i want.

I was really excited to run these as a pack, but **** are they expensive compared to other options that are almost the same.

It's the initiative difference. Compare the Provacator to a Sabre Squadron Pilot with a shield upgrade and a targeting computer. The Provocator is a point cheaper and has slots open, but loses a point of initiative.

That being said, it does feel a bit overpriced since a generic interceptor doesn't want to pay 10 points for that.

4 hours ago, Squark said:

It's the initiative difference. Compare the Provacator to a Sabre Squadron Pilot with a shield upgrade and a targeting computer. The Provocator is a point cheaper and has slots open, but loses a point of initiative.

That being said, it does feel a bit overpriced since a generic interceptor doesn't want to pay 10 points for that.

Don't forget the biggest advantage of the FOceptor has over the Interceptor: It's ability to natively get double modded shots. That's a big deal.

3 hours ago, CRCL said:

Don't forget the biggest advantage of the FOceptor has over the Interceptor: It's ability to natively get double modded shots. That's a big deal.

It's situational of course, but in my experience the 2-hard is also generally easier to block than the 1-hard. This is why playing with and against Soontir Fel (and Fenn Rau) is such an interesting skill challenge. Vonreg is likely a better knife fighter, which in turn might make him more vulnerable to bombs than blocking.

4 hours ago, CRCL said:

Don't forget the biggest advantage of the FOceptor has over the Interceptor: It's ability to natively get double modded shots. That's a big deal.

Indeed. It does pay for it with reduced defence (I'm assuming that if you're setting up a double-modded shot you probably wouldn't willingly take a deplete token) but even then it's still as tough as a Z-95 and strain goes away after one attack, so it's not as bad as, say, a tractor token (like the Nantex). 4 health/2 agility is still probably just a bit too tough to get one-shotted, too.

29 minutes ago, Okapi said:

It's situational of course, but in my experience the 2-hard is also generally easier to block than the 1-hard. This is why playing with and against Soontir Fel (and Fenn Rau) is such an interesting skill challenge. Vonreg is likely a better knife fighter, which in turn might make him more vulnerable to bombs than blocking.

Based on experience with the TIE/v1, I'd probably agree with you. The other nice thing is that a strain token doesn't demand you clear it immediately to the same extent as a stress token does; 'living with' a ship which is strained-but-focused for a turn or two is a lot easier than one which is has unmodified agility 3.

8 hours ago, Squark said:

It's the initiative difference. Compare the Provacator to a Sabre Squadron Pilot with a shield upgrade and a targeting computer. The Provocator is a point cheaper and has slots open, but loses a point of initiative.

Indeed. I'd probably suggest a good point of comparison is the Black Squadron Scout w/Afterburners.

Assuming you use Fine-Tuned Thrusters most of the time, you're both Initiative 2, with silly amounts of repositioning, at I3. The Provocateur gets the option to trade its repositioning for more firepower in a head-on pass, or to trade its firepower down in turns it's not shooting anyway (deplete token), but it critically pays for it by being a 4-per-squad ship rather than a 5-per squad. Sabres are the same. Losing that 5th ship hurts a lot.

It is expensive. but First Order does have access to plenty of cheap chaff in the form of TIE/fo and lightly equipped TIE/sf. This ship probably hits the right note for an 'elite swarm' - if they were going to make silencers a 4-ship unit, they'd probably have done it already (indeed, wanting to shift plenty of TIE/ba probably contributed to them not doing, as a generic TIE/ba and generic TIE/vn kind of compete with one another tactically) - but I think it's still probably going to be best used for aces.

4 TIE/ba versus 4 T-70s (to use a period-appropriate matchup) feels like a bad matchup.

Another thought is the Nantex. Take gravetic deflection and you've essentially got minimal loss of defence for being tractored, but with a primary-2 it more or less makes it equivalent of taking the deplete token each time. Hive guard have the same initiative, the same total hits (but with admittedly no shields to fend off inevitable criticals), similar defence and similar firepower to a depleted TIE/ba, but again are much cheaper.

I think it's ultimately potential and flexibility you're paying for. Being able to get a 'free' reposition for a red token is old news - most ships have that via a linked action. What's new is that you can 'tailor' the consequences (impacting defence or offence as suits you best), and the fact that you can focus/lock instead. That makes the TIE/ba not a million miles away from a force-user; since they're the main culprit of lock-with-focus-modifiers these days, and if you consider them to be an inquisitor with an extra attack die, they definitely justify their cost. The fact that the chassis slots also allow you to pack in shield regeneration has to be accounted for (though I doubt many people will shell out for it for generics).

I am kind of tempted by the trio of named TIE/ba aces. Give the three of them Daredevil and Deuterium Power Cells and you've got a squirrely little ace unit.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. It does pay for it with reduced defence (I'm assuming that if you're setting up a double-modded shot you probably wouldn't willingly take a deplete token) but even then it's still as tough as a Z-95 and strain goes away after one attack, so it's not as bad as, say, a tractor token (like the Nantex). 4 health/2 agility is still probably just a bit too tough to get one-shotted, too.

That's why you want this ship on a flank where it's not facing any return fire. It can then do the old 1.0 Inquisitor trick of TL + Focus (and taking the strain) to hammer a ship, then slow-rolling with a 1 Bank the turn after, and do it all again.

If you do get caught in arc and aren't confident of the PS kill, you want to take the deplete to BR, then Boost/Evade to dodge arc or be defensive.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Based on experience with the TIE/v1, I'd probably agree with you. The other nice thing is that a strain token doesn't demand you clear it immediately to the same extent as a stress token does; 'living with' a ship which is strained-but-focused for a turn or two is a lot easier than one which is has unmodified agility 3.

Optics is also only 4pts and makes the focus token pretty valuable on your 3-dice, giving ~61% chance of 3 hits (up from ~42% without optics). It also makes your TL + Focused shots incredibly consistent. Having said that, I'm not sure I'd bother paying the 4pts, unless I had nothing else to spend it on.

This ship already checks every box I'm looking for in an ace: PS6, can double reposition, can double mod 3-dice shots, and has 4+HP to survive 1 defensive 'whiff'. The only other ships that tick all those boxes are: Vader with afterburners, Soontir with Shield and Predator, Poe with R4 astro, and Delta-7 Anakin. The problem is all those pilots are ~10-25pts more expensive, with the exception being Soontir who arguably doesn't tick the double mod box. This leaves you with a decent amount of points to fit in a solid 'anvil' to draw aggro away from Vonreg/Holo, or you can go into 3x ace territory (Kylo does check all but the PS6 box on my ace checklist).

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It is expensive. but First Order does have access to plenty of cheap chaff in the form of TIE/fo and lightly equipped TIE/sf. This ship probably hits the right note for an 'elite swarm' - if they were going to make silencers a 4-ship unit, they'd probably have done it already (indeed, wanting to shift plenty of TIE/ba probably contributed to them not doing, as a generic TIE/ba and generic TIE/vn kind of compete with one another tactically) - but I think it's still probably going to be best used for aces.

I am kind of tempted by the trio of named TIE/ba aces. Give the three of them Daredevil and Deuterium Power Cells and you've got a squirrely little ace unit.

If by shift you mean sell, I agree with you. In the end, in business, you really wanna know why? ‘Follow the money.’

They are not overpriced and Von’s ability is nothing close to a Wedge, Vader or Soontir, so it’s all cost for that I6. But, the chassis is very fun, nice dial, and the model is fantastic!

Truth be told, they probably got me again. Well played FFG, well played.

...now where’s my tea?

9 hours ago, Okapi said:

It's situational of course, but in my experience the 2-hard is also generally easier to block than the 1-hard. This is why playing with and against Soontir Fel (and Fenn Rau) is such an interesting skill challenge. Vonreg is likely a better knife fighter, which in turn might make him more vulnerable to bombs than blocking.

This

8 hours ago, CRCL said:

That's why you want this ship on a flank where it's not facing any return fire. It can then do the old 1.0 Inquisitor trick of TL + Focus (and taking the strain) to hammer a ship, then slow-rolling with a 1 Bank the turn after, and do it all again.

If you do get caught in arc and aren't confident of the PS kill, you want to take the deplete to BR, then Boost/Evade to dodge arc or be defensive.

Definitely the strategy I would use, but the urgent question is whether you'd pay 45 for that flanker:

First Order Provocateur - 45 pts

"Pure Sabacc" - 44 pts

Which is harder to ignore? I'm not sure. Sabacc would be much easier for me to reach for, but mainly because they're a known quantity. The Provocateur is still a bit of an enigma. The ace potential of I4 in the new meta ( especially hyperspace) is not to be underestimated.

If we flipped the question and asked who would win 1 on 1, I'd give it to Sabacc every time. I realize that's not a fair comparison in general, but it might be relevant when discussing flankers.

Edit:

Another important point to make:

Omega Squadron Expert (34) – 46
Proud Tradition (2)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

First Order Provocateur – 45

1 point to upgrade for something that seems much harder to ignore, at least at first glance...

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Definitely the strategy I would use, but the urgent question is whether you'd pay 45 for that flanker:

First Order Provocateur - 45 pts

"Pure Sabacc" - 44 pts

Which is harder to ignore? I'm not sure. Sabacc would be much easier for me to reach for, but mainly because they're a known quantity. The Provocateur is still a bit of an enigma. The ace potential of I4 in the new meta ( especially hyperspace) is not to be underestimated.

They are in completely different eco systems. You can't run Sabacc next to SFs or Kylo.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Edit:

Another important point to make:

Omega Squadron Expert (34) – 46
Proud Tradition (2)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

First Order Provocateur – 45

1 point to upgrade for something that seems much harder to ignore, at least at first glance...

The Omega is a straight up jouster. Of course it should be harder to ignore because no boost means it can't chase or push as hard to flank.

Played a fat kylo (protons, magpulse, optics etc.), vonrig, and Rsomething ps1 FO today with 4xwings and arvel.

Lost the match with injured kylo still on the board. Von regend twice.

Vonrig is fine, his regen needs to go up up up in points. Prob exceed r2.

Otherwise fine, more matches will help me assess. I mean, this still exists :

Obi-Wan Kenobi (48) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (4) Ship total: 56 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2

Plo Koon (44) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (4) Ship total: 52 Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

Jedi Knight (37) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (2) Ship total: 43 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Ric Olié (42) R2 Astromech (7) Ship total: 49 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 3 Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Republic&d=v8ZhZ200Z278XW6W200WY312XW6W200WY277XW6W200WY333XWW2W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Definitely the strategy I would use, but the urgent question is whether you'd pay 45 for that flanker:

First Order Provocateur - 45 pts

"Pure Sabacc" - 44 pts

Which is harder to ignore? I'm not sure. Sabacc would be much easier for me to reach for, but mainly because they're a known quantity. The Provocateur is still a bit of an enigma. The ace potential of I4 in the new meta ( especially hyperspace) is not to be underestimated.

If we flipped the question and asked who would win 1 on 1, I'd give it to Sabacc every time. I realize that's not a fair comparison in general, but it might be relevant when discussing flankers.

Edit:

Another important point to make:

Omega Squadron Expert (34) – 46
Proud Tradition (2)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

First Order Provocateur – 45

1 point to upgrade for something that seems much harder to ignore, at least at first glance...

Well thought out and I’m tracking parallel; ****, I might not want one anymore due to my increasing clarity.

1 hour ago, Cr0aker said:

Vonrig is fine, his regen needs to go up up up in points. Prob exceed r2.

I mean, this still exists :

Obi-Wan Kenobi (48) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (4) Ship total: 56 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2

Plo Koon (44) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (4) Ship total: 52 Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

Jedi Knight (37) R5 Astromech (4) Calibrated Laser Targeting (2) Ship total: 43 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Ric Olié (42) R2 Astromech (7) Ship total: 49 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 3 Total: 200

Agreed, and I can’t help but think, if his Regen goes up next reset, he should drop almost the same.

Because, that exists.

On 1/16/2020 at 9:06 PM, clanofwolves said:

After one shot-ing Fenn turn three and keeping them flanking with my fully loaded deci -thinking I was pretty good with Imp Aces after months of practice- I got my full health/full token stack Soontir out of two R1 arcs next turn and only left my opponent a range three thru an asteroid.... ‘hit, hit, crit’ ....no problem, five dice, focus/evade. ALL BLANKS. Major Explosion: bye bye Soontir.

I call this this Soontir Effect and it occurs 99.9% of the time.

Had this been a Range 1 shot against 4 hits, he’d have (somehow) blocked everything. Range 3 with 5 green double modded??? Any 2 die attack will destroy him.

26 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

I call this this Soontir Effect and it occurs 99.9% of the time.

Had this been a Range 1 shot against 4 hits, he’d have (somehow) blocked everything. Range 3 with 5 green double modded??? Any 2 die attack will destroy him.

Can confirm, that's usually how I kill him. That, or an unmodded range 3 shot from a 3 dice gun will one-shot him with natties vs blanks.

6 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I call this this Soontir Effect and it occurs 99.9% of the time.

Had this been a Range 1 shot against 4 hits, he’d have (somehow) blocked everything. Range 3 with 5 green double modded??? Any 2 die attack will destroy him.

Can confirm.... Had my Fenn killed by 2 Torrents shooting at range 3. From full health to zero.... was awesome.

19 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Can confirm.... Had my Fenn killed by 2 Torrents shooting at range 3. From full health to zero.... was awesome.

...and I’m the fool who wants to dive into 2.0 Fangs. More shieldless pain to come? 😝