Brief analysis of Hyperspace legal 5-ship Rebel lists based on T65s

By Biophysical, in X-Wing

I don't always play Rebels, but when I do, I play X-wings. I think they look cool and I think S-foils are interesting to use. I like the combination of a ship that hits hard, moves fast, and can take at least one hit before it goes down. The primary purpose of this post is to compare the offensive efficiency of three 5 ship Hyperspace squads centered on T65s.

With the drop in generic prices, and the removal of most ships from Hyperspace, now is a good time to look at heavy T65 lists.

The most obvious option is 5 Blue Escorts. 5 i2 X-wings, pretty much what it says on the tin. 5 well-rounded ships.

You can trade one X-wing for a support ship/pocket ace and some initiative in the form of Jake (4 Red Vets + Jake). Jake gives you some more frequent access to double mods, and the bump to i3 for the X-wings isn't insignificant.

A 3rd option is 4 X-wings and an A-wing blocker with Intimidation. You don't get the extra modification from Jake, but you can drop the offense of a singe target under certain situations.

Using the X-wing dice calculator ( http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/ ) I ran the numbers of these 3 squads against 2 "hard" targets, Boba Fett with Focus, 1 Force, and 1 reroll and 3 AGI with Focus and 2 Force, representing CLT Jedi, Vader, and Kylo. The most defensive targets were chosen because low defense targets rapidly start favoring massed attacks. Debuffs and extra mods are most significant against higher quality defenses, and such defenses are fairly common in competitive play.

Assumptions: All shots were assumed to be at Range 2 for the sake of simplicity. The 4X + Intimidation A-wing was assumed to have blocked the target with the A-wing, and therefore denied the target's Focus action for defense. 4X + Jake squad is assumed to have used Jake successfully to generate two Focus tokens for the X-wings, but not to have a shot himself (although his 2 dice unmodded shot is not likely to be significant against high defense targets).

Results: see table attached

Analysis: the real takeaway here, for me, is that Jake provides no net offensive gain. Optimal use of the extra mods is largely equivalent offense to just having an extra 3 dice shot, but it's harder to get, and your offense is more concentrated in lot fewer models so an arc dodged is more significant. Jake does provide a wide range of extra abilities compared to another X-wing. You get better initiative, he can act as an ace, and you can feed tokens on bombs or red moves. That offers a lot of flexibility. That is not accounted for in this analysis. As this analysis looks at what is essentially an "optimal" situation for the Jake squad, it is likely that the 5X list will have better average offense over the course of the game. Jake's responsiveness and the improved initiative of the list also likely means that most of the disadvantages afforded by Jake will be easier to use against lower initiative squads than higher initiative squads.

The 4X+Intimidation A-wing squad has the highest expected damage output by a wide margin. It's damage, however, is highly dependent on successfully blocking the target with the A-wing. Its offense will be strictly worse than the 5X list if the target has not been blocked. This is a strategy that requires good prediction of opponent's moves and commitment in the planning phase. Each player will have to make a judegment about how often the optimal situation will occur in games where it would matter.

Thanks for reading.

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Are your figures assuming a generic A-Wing with Intimidation? 4x Blue Squadron T-65s leaves 40 points which allows the Intimidation blocker to be Arvel (or even Jake, who doesn't block as well at i4 but adds his support-like ability instead).

3 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

Are your figures assuming a generic A-Wing with Intimidation? 4x Blue Squadron T-65s leaves 40 points which allows the Intimidation blocker to be Arvel (or even Jake, who doesn't block as well at i4 but adds his support-like ability instead).

The intimidation analysis doesn't assume Arvel. Arvel basically makes it better if the block is successful by sometimes adding a 5th attack, but is still worse than 5X against an unblocked target. Same conclusion, but bluffs the numbers a bit more. I'd need to do more analysis to figure out roughly now many times the Intimidation block needs to happen to make it worthwhile, but that's really hard, because the two different squad types would rely on two different formations and strategies for engaging opposing aces. There are different "failure modes" if the desired plan doesn't happen each turn, etc. Well beyond the scope of this short post.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

The intimidation analysis doesn't assume Arvel. Arvel basically makes it better if the block is successful by sometimes adding a 5th attack, but is still worse than 5X against an unblocked target. Same conclusion, but bluffs the numbers a bit more. I'd need to do more analysis to figure out roughly now many times the Intimidation block needs to happen to make it worthwhile, but that's really hard, because the two different squad types would rely on two different formations and strategies for engaging opposing aces. There are different "failure modes" if the desired plan doesn't happen each turn, etc. Well beyond the scope of this short post.

Thanks for running the numbers. All these new number-of-same-ship breakpoints from the cost changes seem like they could shift the benchmarks of jousting efficiency, so the analyses are really interesting.

6 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

Thanks for running the numbers. All these new number-of-same-ship breakpoints from the cost changes seem like they could shift the benchmarks of jousting efficiency, so the analyses are really interesting.

Yeah, I think the breakpoints are interesting too. Traditionally jousting has been in a bad place because 3 aces vs 4 jousters was often 3v3 very quickly. 3v5 makes that a lot tougher for the aces, so the question becomes "which 5?". The 5th ship makes the heads up exchange much tougher for aces and that makes the rest of the game harder because the 5 can cover more zones, protecting each other with offense. That's why, essentially, I'm leaning toward 5X myself. It deals with arc dodges best by not concentrating firepower into single events, so broader areas are covered.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I don't always play Rebels, but when I do, I play X-wings.

Figure one does not contain any data, but is in fact, a meme

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

Figure one does not contain any data, but is in fact, a meme

Figure 1 does not contain a figure either. JUDGE!

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I don't always play Rebels, but when I do, I play X-wings.

Perfectly cannon.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Figure one does not contain any data, but is in fact, a meme

Perfectly logical.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Figure 1 does not contain a figure either. JUDGE!

Perfectly understandable.

In my interactions with Rebels, and my limited understanding of the newly revised hyperspace format, why not start with Luke, then add pieces?

Pardon my ignorance in advance, it's rainy here... and the tea simply isn't keeping up.

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

In my interactions with Rebels, and my limited understanding of the newly revised hyperspace format, why not start with Luke, then add pieces?

But Luke is just one X-Wing. What if I could have five? That would be better! I can’t have five with Luke.

Sorry, I think you might be doing it right too. There is something to be said for having a formation filled with Xwings. It really looks good on the mat.

Same ship squads FTW!

I think mixed squads, like XXYYB or XXXYY, are going to be better than just XXXXX. You get assorted benefits like higher initiative ships, more arc coverage with turrets, named pilots with powerful abilities, and so on.

Some example squads:

XXXYY at Init3 with ion turrets: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z29XW138WWWWWY29XW138WWWWWY2XWWWW142Y2XWWWW142Y2XWWWW142&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

XXXYY at I2 with Ion Turrets and Thane: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z30X138WWWWWY30X138WWWWWY1XWWW142Y1XWWW142Y9XWWWW142&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Note: You can sub Ten Numb with Config instead of Thane. No cannons, but the config is so you get the Evade action, which should keep him alive longer

BBYYY is also possible, but the points line up less well.

5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

In my interactions with Rebels, and my limited understanding of the newly revised hyperspace format, why not start with Luke, then add pieces?

I'm a huge fan of Luke, but that's essentially a different squad than what I'm talking about. You're either down a ship, or two X-wings are replaced with A-wings. I'm not saying that's not good, or even better than the squads I discussed above, just different.

@Biophysical You are truly a man after my own heart. As soon as I heard people talking about 5X, I started thinking about similar squads that are better. I quite like this:

32 Pheonix Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
164 (4x) Red Squadron Veteran w/ Servos
4 Bid

Having the RSVs at PS3 allows them to PS kill both droids and other 5X lists, it's just a shame crackshot is out of hyperspace. You could buff the Pheonix up to a GSV, but I like him being at PS1 with a large bid. It allows you to mostly ensure getting initiative against droid swarms. The other option is to drop one of the Reds to a Blue and get Arvel:

40 Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
123 (4x) Red Squadron Veteran w/ Servos
37 Arvel Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
0 Bid

You could also drop all the Reds down to Blues and get Thane to flank (Garven's also OK, but less so as a flanker):

32 Pheonix Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
120 (3x) Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
48 Thane Kyrell w/ Servos
0 Bid

Finally, while it's not 5-ships, I do really like the look of this list:

120 (3x) Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
79 Lando
1 Bid

Is Lando worth 2x Blues? I think so. Even naked, he's tough, and really good at getting double modded R1 shots. Plus he gives you some 'tricks' with his ability to pseudo-coordinate the Blues. Lando's also great for blocking PS5+ aces (your small 1pt bid means you're likely being given initiative).

Been staring hard at the 4 Reds and an A-wing. Have to get some table time to decide if I can get Intimidation to proc or if just the threat is enough to get people to fly differently. I like the idea that you just throw on Crack Shot for Extended and have one squad that can compete in both formats.

Something to keep in mind about I3, you won't get any advantage against Aces but you can still initiative kill the filler ships. The only squads that you don't get any benefit are if everyone in the other squad is I4 or higher.

5 hours ago, CRCL said:

@Biophysical You are truly a man after my own heart. As soon as I heard people talking about 5X, I started thinking about similar squads that are better. I quite like this:

32 Pheonix Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
164 (4x) Red Squadron Veteran w/ Servos
4 Bid

Having the RSVs at PS3 allows them to PS kill both droids and other 5X lists, it's just a shame crackshot is out of hyperspace. You could buff the Pheonix up to a GSV, but I like him being at PS1 with a large bid. It allows you to mostly ensure getting initiative against droid swarms. The other option is to drop one of the Reds to a Blue and get Arvel:

40 Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
123 (4x) Red Squadron Veteran w/ Servos
37 Arvel Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
0 Bid

You could also drop all the Reds down to Blues and get Thane to flank (Garven's also OK, but less so as a flanker):

32 Pheonix Squadron Pilot w/ Intimidation
120 (3x) Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
48 Thane Kyrell w/ Servos
0 Bid

Finally, while it's not 5-ships, I do really like the look of this list:

120 (3x) Blue Squadron Escort w/ Servos
79 Lando
1 Bid

Is Lando worth 2x Blues? I think so. Even naked, he's tough, and really good at getting double modded R1 shots. Plus he gives you some 'tricks' with his ability to pseudo-coordinate the Blues. Lando's also great for blocking PS5+ aces (your small 1pt bid means you're likely being given initiative).

The Arvel version is something I've been looking at harder at because the damage potential vs hard targets starts getting absurd.

Oddly enough, with the 3 Reds and Arvel, you're initiative killing i2 X-wings pretty reliablely, and Arvel's abilities make it easy to get contact.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

The Arvel version is something I've been looking at harder at because the damage potential vs hard targets starts getting absurd.

Oddly enough, with the 3 Reds and Arvel, you're initiative killing i2 X-wings pretty reliablely, and Arvel's abilities make it easy to get contact.

Yeah Arvel's a really underrated pilot, especially against lower PS targets. The only issue I have with the Arvel + 4X list is it's vulnerability to being blocked by a PS1 swarm. Obviously it depends on your play group, but we have quite a few CIS players in our meta, so I always try to get a PS1 dude in my squads.

10 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Yeah Arvel's a really underrated pilot, especially against lower PS targets. The only issue I have with the Arvel + 4X list is it's vulnerability to being blocked by a PS1 swarm. Obviously it depends on your play group, but we have quite a few CIS players in our meta, so I always try to get a PS1 dude in my squads.

I was looking at it the other way. If Arvel gets blocked, he's still working, and if somehow your whole squad gets blocked, 4 unmodded dice vs -1 agility is still pretty painful. I don't know.

I'm definitely not flying those X-wings in block formation against i1, though, so I don't expect to get the whole squad blocked.

Does Intimidation stack?

7 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I was looking at it the other way. If Arvel gets blocked, he's still working, and if somehow your whole squad gets blocked, 4 unmodded dice vs -1 agility is still pretty painful. I don't know.

I'm definitely not flying those X-wings in block formation against i1, though, so I don't expect to get the whole squad blocked.

Yeah block formation is sad against an I1 swarm. In matchups like that, with similar lists, I run it like a 3-ship ace list. Pair off the X-wings on each flank, and run Arvel on his own down the middle.

I've been defaulting to that pincer attack a lot lately, not just with generic lists.

1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

Does Intimidation stack?

Yeah it does RAW.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

Does Intimidation stack?

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

Yeah it does RAW.

It's very unlikely outside of Arvel though(because of his ability to boost into range 0).

Edited by Cerebrawl

Since were looking at 5 ship rebel, I also considered 3x blue horton with a torp and a ps1 A as a blocker. Want to experiment and see what feels best.

My gut says the 3x red vet 1x blue and Arvel w/intimidation will be best.

Lots of people looking at 5 X-wings. And I get that.

Haven't seen anyone point out 4 T-70's and an RZ-2 is 200 points now as well. All I1 which is a problem in the mirrors but the upgrade to the chassis is interesting anyway.

1 minute ago, Cr0aker said:

Since were looking at 5 ship rebel, I also considered 3x blue horton with a torp and a ps1 A as a blocker. Want to experiment and see what feels best.

My gut says the 3x red vet 1x blue and Arvel w/intimidation will be best.

I'm afraid you're right but the fact that you can't get all I3 bugs me.

10 minutes ago, Cr0aker said:

My gut says the 3x red vet 1x blue and Arvel w/intimidation will be best.

I was slowly working my way to that, I think I'm one step from achieving the same results in list building. I'm still on 3x Red / Arvel w/intimidation / Gold w/Ion turret with four points left...

Edit: Of course, at that point... why not Jake instead of Gold? Arghh...

Edited by LagJanson
27 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Lots of people looking at 5 X-wings. And I get that.

Haven't seen anyone point out 4 T-70's and an RZ-2 is 200 points now as well. All I1 which is a problem in the mirrors but the upgrade to the chassis is interesting anyway.

I'm afraid you're right but the fact that you can't get all I3 bugs me.

1.) I feel you on no everybody being i3.

2.) The 4 T70 list loses a 5th 3 dice shot. Yes, it has a blocker, but what I was finding running the numbers (but what I and a lot of the community know from experience) is that damage is pretty linear with number of 3 dice shots, and blocking doesn't have a huge effect if there's no Intimidation involved. So basically giving up a shot to block is a net zero increase in damage if all you're doing is denting the action. Larger numbers of 3 did shots let's you generate larger areas where you have an overlap of 2-3 arcs.

The T70s offer other advantages, of course, but for generics I'm a firm believer in raw offense.

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Colossus Station Mechanic (26)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Sorry about jumping in, but someone mentioned T-70 and my ears were burning.