The problem with 6-pt Mag-Pulse, in a nutshell:

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (22)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Total: 200

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The problem is obviously not the jam; the problem is the deplete. That's a lot of deplete!

Sure you'll lose 1-2 on the first pass before they get the locks, but that's still a lot of deplete!

How do you kill that with your weapons reduced the whole time? They have no incentive to joust because they know they're losing at least one anyway. They instead spread out and get the locks in their own sweet time, then deplete you to death on the second pass. The problem isn't the alpha strike, it's the beta strike. After they do get those locks, how do you fight back?

Alternative, Alpha-strike variant. Now the Jam and the Deplete count more than ever:

"Odd Ball" (34)
Swarm Tactics (4)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Synchronized Console (1)

Blue Squadron Protector (27)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Synchronized Console (1)

Blue Squadron Protector (27)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Synchronized Console (1)

Blue Squadron Protector (27)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Synchronized Console (1)

Blue Squadron Protector (27)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Synchronized Console (1)

Total: 193

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There's 5 at I5, or try 4 at I6 that doesn't care about 1st vs 2nd as far as target locks go:

"Quickdraw" (45)
Swarm Tactics (5)
Targeting Synchronizer (6)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Passive Sensors (3)
Afterburners (6)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Omega Squadron Expert (34)
Swarm Tactics (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Total: 200

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So in the end, what do you do against massive walls of deplete? Because they're coming, like it or not.

In other news, first player is better!

101 views and no response. I guess it's not a problem.

Problem being is that that low initiative have a hard time getting locks and with low IN shooting AFTER a lot of other ships the deplete won't really matter.

Say in the first build you fly against 5 In 2 X-Wings. You move first and unfortunately are beyond range 3. Then they move and they end up at range 3 or 2. Shooting ensues and you lose a Z or 2. Next round you move and end up at range 2 or 1 of the Xs, they move and get range 1 for the most part. They shoot first and you are likely losing some more Zs, maybe 2 or 3 more. Your turn to shoot and maybe a X is gone from last round or badly damaged. Do you fire the mag pulse at range one for a maximum of 1 crit or your main gun for possibly more damage? The Xs have likely spent focus tokens on offense so jam might not be useful, the deplete might help next round when everyone k-turns. End of round there are likely 3-4 Zs and 3-4 Xs. It just doesn't seem like the Zs have much of a chance at this point.

Mag pulse will be pretty good on high IN ships such as Kylo, Poe, Vonreg, and such, but on generics I don't know how good it will be.

38 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Mag pulse will be pretty good on high IN ships such as Kylo, Poe, Vonreg, and such, but on generics I don't know how good it will be.

Passive Sensors makes generics with ordinance a viable threat to high IN ships on the first turn in range. Zeta Squadron Survivor (IN 2) for FO and Baron of the Empire (IN 3) for Imps both come in at 41 points, so only 4 ships instead of 7, but they are much more likely to survive that first round of fire (and the BOE would shoot first anyway against IN 2). Still, 3 or 4 Mag Pulse shots....

I think the Zs fall into the same category as the four Y-Wing TLT builds of 1e. They were a PITA until players figured out a counter then they all but vanished.

The other two builds are slightly more disturbing. The higher Initiative can hamstring builds that rely on a bunch of low Init pilots and one or two aces. Especially low Init pilots with low Agility.

I wouldn't say it's a problem until we actually see that it's a problem. The sky is not falling. At least not yet.

Almost any swarm munitions fleet is going to be hard-pressed to put a strategy like this to work without support. Jendon can help 4 TIE Bombers, TIE Aggressors, TIE Advanced v1s, etc, so that might have legs? The TIE Advanced v1 may be the best carrier for Passive Sensors + Pulse, and you could have up to 5 of them at init 3 and a whole 4 health each. Not bad, but I'd have to see it played.

IMO it's still mainly a weapon for higher-init pilots. The Pulse Swarm could hurt, but it's going to suffer a lot from the low-lock-init dilemma and shooting last, tamping down on its overall effectiveness quite a lot. And despite dropping the target's attack, your own damage is pretty low... compare to 5x x-wings that just focus on murder and tanking. That's going to be hard to beat even with the depletion trick.

The swarm with the most legs may be 5x Baron of the Empire with Passive Sensors and Mag-Pulse. Or 4x inquisitors as above, or one of the Jendon + 4 munition buddies combo. Maybe something wonky with 4 Alpha Star Wings and a friend:

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Sienar Specialist (26)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Ship total: 35 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 3


Total: 199

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Or

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4

Planetary Sentinel (31)
Proton Bombs (5)

Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

101 views and no response. I guess it's not a problem.

I mean, Z-95s. Amrite?

I mean, this is stupid and it probably won't work, but it's fun.

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Passive Sensors (3)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Advanced SLAM (3)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4


Total: 200

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That's 28 health, lots of maneuverability for hit&run tactics, heavy firepower at range 1, and a decent depletion trick for range 2-3 to limit the damage you take on approach. Your initial strike is hopefully going to deplete foes, likely keeping your lock (assuming an advanced slam, you can't spend it). Then the next round you move in for the range 1 nuke and focus. Then scatter again and prepare for the next pass. In theory it's fantastic...

But in my experience, Star Wing spam is tricky to use well. You really miss being able to k-turn, and you rely on foes cooperating with your approach and positioning an awful lot. All your ships having the same problem really hurts, so you may want to trade 1 - 2 star wings for some aces. At a minimum you need to be moving freely, never in formation.

More seriously: I guess it's still a bit of a mystery, but I'm very skeptical.

3-dice attacks that don't even do more than 1 damage aren't game-winning. I think even the most ardent defenders of Ion Cannons would agree to that. You can easily get pretty far behind the damage race like that. You've got to back that up with some real damage. But Deplete? Is that enough to push the damage-race in the other direction? I'm really skeptical that it is.

• The first Deplete from a low-init ship is mostly meaningless. Someone can just pull a blue move.
• So two Deplete. Get them onto one ship, and you'll force either two blue moves (which will probably mean at least one turn without attacking), or actually reduce one attack by a die. So two ships capped at 1 damage, to prevent one attack die and force one blue move. I'm not really all that bothered by it.
• So what about landing like five or six MPW onto someone? Well, most ships in the game would probably be dead, if these had been Concussion Missiles instead. Six attacks against 2 Agi with a Focus leads to 4.704 damage. Better than 6 plain attacks (4.086), but not by much, and you had to give up fairly substantial points to get there. With Concussion Missiles instead of MPW? 8.109 damage expected.

What about Swarm Tactics Daisy Chain high-init?

• That's kind of never worked with any missile, in 1e or 2e, right? Looking at those example squads, there's more than 20 points in those squads used for getting an early shot. That's a lot of a list to give up for an Alpha Strike that might not even kill something. Low-init ships can still be arc-dodged (particularly when they need to stay tight for the daisy chain), even if they shoot early.
• Meanwhile, even if you cripple-but-not-kill one ship, you've still got to deal with the rest of the enemy list, and that enemy list will have a much easier time earning points, since there's so many nearly-useless upgrades.
• On top of that, probably should have just been Concussion Missiles.

So what about when Deplete might work?

• On L ow-Init ships, I think the deplete strategy probably has to cost less than the target. A small-ish investment in MPW might be wicked nasty to fat turrets. When someone has a lot of points tied up into a ship which you can't kill quickly, but which needs to have a high damage output, that might be something that low-init Deplete is good against.
  • Something like 3 Z-95s, plus someone like Luke or Fenn Rau, plus another semi-filler 3-attack ship (Graz, Jek, etc). I don't hate it, but I'm not expecting to see it on stream at top tables.
• I guess Kylo or Vonreg or whatever. If you can thwart someone lock-dependent like Vader, then it's really strong.
• Potentially overlooked winners for MPW might be folks like Oddball or Tomax Bren. Cheap folks with missile slots and high Init, to really disrupt a high-priority target. 40 points for that Oddball, plus some combination of Obi, Ric, Plo, and/or Mace? Get that Jam in before your own attacks, maybe deplete one round to save some incoming damage. Pocket-Alpha, instead of pocket ace?

But overall, I think my takeaway is this: If you had enough bricks to build a wall of Depletes, you could have buried an opponent under a pile of damage.

Low init. Jam clears during the end phase. Deplete clears after a blue maneuver. Must have been a big acorn that hit someone in the head.

Mass magpulse aint the answer. Remember blair bunkes z swarm in 1st ed? He had 3 with tracers and 4 with harpoons. So you are gonna want like 3 with mag pulse to dmg and jam. Then follow up with a concussion/barrage/boron to push more dmg through. You also want those missiles fully modded. 3 dice with a single mod can be dodged by aces easily.

You should try it.

If you want my guess: Not a problem. But hey, its a guess, why? I didn't try it. That's why I ask people for table experience.

I think it'd be better btw with some mix of Mags and Concs. You don't have a lot of damage.

Its not quite as hard to get rid of 4hp as one would think.

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess Kylo or Vonreg or whatever. If you can thwart someone lock-dependent like Vader, then it's really strong.

In Kylo's case, it also gives him a means of delivering an automatic critical. Not that many people ever use his ability but if he's got a reliable way of triggering it it becomes something to think about, especially if you can jam, deplete and blinded pilot an opponent all at the same time.... turning a focus/locked missile into an unmodified, depleted primary shot is kind of mean.

Massed Deplete is nice, but probably better paired with RZ-1s or other agility 3 ships if you're going to try it at all - trying to deplete someone "for ages" is so-so for the reasons listed - if you could hit them with 4+ missiles, then if you'd used a different missile they'd just be dead. But an unmodified, depleted attack is much more likely to fail to hit an agility 3 target.

The fact that the 1 damage is automatically a critical is nice - frankly almost as big a deal as the jam/deplete. The problem is balancing initiative order - you want to drop jam/deplete tokens before they fire, but drop the critical after their shields are down (which means after other ships in your squad have fired).

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Not that many people ever use his ability but if he's got a reliable way of triggering it it becomes something to think about, especially if you can jam, deplete and blinded pilot an opponent all at the same time.... turning a focus/locked missile into an unmodified, depleted primary shot is kind of mean.

I thought that was what Marksmanship recoil was for?

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

• 40 points for that Oddball, plus some combination of Obi, Ric, Plo, and/or Mace? Get that Jam in before your own attacks, maybe deplete one round to save some incoming damage. Pocket-Alpha, instead of pocket ace?

Synchronized Console + Swarm Tactics seems potent to me — that’s a bunch of focused I5 3-dice attacks that deny range bonus. And it works even if Odd Ball gets dodged.

I agree opening with a mag-pulse or two and then wiping up with concussion is meaner to most lists, but vs something like Fenn or Duchess, those stacking crits will make a huge difference. The goal is to get some fuel-leak direct-hit action that the concussions can go in and flip again.

But I wonder how the viability of Seven missile Zs will look? I’m certainly beginning to change my mind on the price point of missiles...

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

In Kylo's case, it also gives him a means of delivering an automatic critical.

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I thought that was what Marksmanship recoil was for?

Proud Tradition fits along those lines, too.

Or maybe the reverse. ISYTDS makes it so that an opponent probably never flips you to False Tradition with a Crit. Can't wait for the Xi shuttle, so that Kylo Crew might actually be handy.

Just now, theBitterFig said:

Or maybe the reverse. ISYTDS makes it so that an opponent never flips you to False Tradition.

They can use the focus token.

It's actually going to be pretty common as many defensive rolls don't bring up a focus result anyway, and even if they do, a single hit is better than a voluntary crit, especially when backed by ISYTDS.

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They can use the focus token.

It's actually going to be pretty common as many defensive rolls don't bring up a focus result anyway, and even if they do, a single hit is better than a voluntary crit, especially when backed by ISYTDS.

Yeah, I know they can use a focus.

If they have one. Still, I could reword my above for a bit more clarity. At very least, ISYTDS makes it a lot bigger of an ask on the Defender..

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

At very least, ISYTDS makes it a lot bigger of an ask on the Defender..

Once.

Then you have a neutered Kylo.

Mag-Pulse is certainly the safer bet. Then again, going without focus might not be that bad if you take Primed instead of Optics...

Edit: I'm stupid kylo can't take Proud Tradition anyway. You meant on a wingman. 😛

Also, looking back at the original list, Z-95 swarms are just going to be so much fun now. Example:

Binayre Pirate (22)
Homing Missiles (5)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Homing Missiles (5)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Homing Missiles (5)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Homing Missiles (5)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Ion Missiles (4)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Ion Missiles (4)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22)
Ion Missiles (4)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Total: 200

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Only 28 health and you've gotta keep them spaced pretty far apart but that's AOE damage every time they die.

Guri/Fenn would HATE that list. So would Boba/Fenn. Extended-only though. Still...