23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The realization I had about ship breakpoints lately: they matter more the smaller the ship count is.

• 8 TIE/fo won't matter at all; 7 clearly didn't. It's a nice ship, effective for it's cost, and Avenger Swarm is decent.
• 7 Autoblasters Scyks? Eh, that might matter, but probably not. I can't think of many things going from 6 to 7, but the basic concept stands.
• 6 Strikers or Interceptors? Well, they could already 5 + Wampa.
• 5 T-65 X-Wings? We'd just finished a 1e where 5 Flight Assist X-Wings was really common, so I can see launching at 41, but Kihraxz have always had the 5-per, and 40 is fair.
• 4 Silencers or E-Wings? Almost surely not a problem, but I understand why FFG was hesitant, and I appreciate that they've been ticking down the prices pretty much every update. I wish SJE made the step like E-Wings, but hopefully next time.
• 3 Defenders or Decimators or VCX? Yeah, I'm actually worried here. I think these lists can probably skew a bit to tanky for their offense for a time-limited game.

Nice bullet-point layout. TIE/fo swarms could be solid, just not top tier. Strikers and Interceptor swarms will have a splash, just as X-Wings and A-Wings, but nothing to salt about. Honestly, I have no idea about 7 Autoblaster Scyks, as I have never played or seen that many Scyks, haha. I also completely agree, 4 Silencers or 4 E-Wings would simply be fun, nothing earth-shattering.

I'll stand on 3 Defenders not being a game warping problem, even with time being your opponents enemy. However, I agree that 3 Decimators or VCXs probably is too much... but it does beg the obvious pint-fueled comeback: "...but (3) scavenged YT-1300s with 20 points of upgrades are OK?" Though I do see some differences.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

@Smikies02, I'm no statistic major either. I could be completely wrong, as this is something admittedly I am far more than I'd like to admit, haha.

Cheers!

...no where's that tea refill?

I'm no stats major. I just feel the numbers do more justice than my recollection of games. Also helps to keep perspective.

Leaving the numbers behind and just based on prior experience, I'm a hard no on 3 defenders. I don't know your experiences, but the ps1 doesn't care if its predictable because it doesn't die. The white 4K makes it so it wins the joust as well. Surprise slow maneuvers also throw opponents off. Can't really run the numbers as the numbers it's hard to account for ranges, obstruction, or multiple rounds, but the Defenders win on attrition. @ 55 points they'd have Collision Detector, which shores up their only weakness.

Like most other matchups, I can beat a less skilled player running 3 defenders, but I doubt my ability to beat 3 defenders on an equally skilled player, regardless of my list. Neither would that game be fun.

8 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...but it does beg the obvious pint-fueled comeback: "...but (3) scavenged YT-1300s with 20 points of upgrades are OK?" Though I do see some differences.

I was surprised the Scavenged YT-1300 went down as much as it did, but it's really so much worse of a ship. Red boost, Red rotate, plus the worst dial of any 3-red turret, plus they really aren't that tanky. 11 HP? Pshaw. Before upgrades, the list overall is about as tough as 4 B-Wings, with fewer total red dice. Probably good time-on-target due to the turrets, but it probably won't make a splash.

3 Decimators, with their reinforce? That's potentially a quagmire folks can't escape from in 75 minutes. I've tested some 2 Decimators, each with a Force charge, plus Duchess. Seems almost OK. Like, I know it's not winning top-tables, but you won't hate your life.

18 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

3 Decimators, with their reinforce? That's potentially a quagmire folks can't escape from in 75 minutes. I've tested some 2 Decimators, each with a Force charge, plus Duchess. Seems almost OK. Like, I know it's not winning top-tables, but you won't hate your life.

I've tried the same except replace Duchess with 2 Acadamy Pilots. They are good for blocking to ensure the Deci's get their actions. And I totally agree, 3 Deci's is something the game doesn't need.

Yeah. Surprisingly, 3 defenders really aren’t good. But they mitigate bad play and lack of focus fire very hard. Against newbies they are NPE.

Hey guys,

Spam is bad because it suffers disproportionately to hard counters.

Triple Defenders shouldn't be a thing for two reasons:

1) 67 is already a very aggressive price for the Delta, and I expect to see a strong meta presence for it. The others should all be sub-80, but 67 is very fair.

2) You shouldn't fly a full list of any one pilot anyway because that means you're going all in on rock and someone with any paper will beat it. Lists need balance.

3) The Defender is mean to play against, especially in any 1v1 endgame. There's just no getting through their shields. This is why they're expensive; they require focused fire to damage at all, not just substantially but at all. On top of 4 shields and 3 hull that's worth a whole lot of points.

maybe defenders only need a little boost to their attack.

IF they are too tanky to have 3 they are for shure too expensive to have only 3 focus dices

Try 4 Es instead..

52 minutes ago, Wayne Argabright said:

Try 4 Es instead..

If I had ‘em I’d smoke ‘em.

On 1/14/2020 at 4:05 AM, Porkchop Express said:

Yep, basically Rebels and Empire don't need to worry about future ships to balance the faction

I mean, there's the TIE/rb...which will probably fall somewhere between the t65, the TIE X1, the Bomber/Punisher, with a little Aggressor to spice things up.

No balance worries there, lol.

(I'm really being sarcastic. I have no doubt that the devs can work in some unique mechanics to being these to the table, but it's simply a matter of fan perspective where this funky "heavy TIE" fits in to the roster.)

6 hours ago, Wayne Argabright said:

Try 4 Es instead..

Sounds pretty awesome. Double mods engagement for anyone not taking fire.

Those I2 escort X-Wings, though...

MAN.

Such a brilliant meta shake-up.

23 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Hey guys,

Spam is bad because it suffers disproportionately to hard counters.

Triple Defenders shouldn't be a thing for two reasons:

1) 67 is already a very aggressive price for the Delta, and I expect to see a strong meta presence for it. The others should all be sub-80, but 67 is very fair.

2) You shouldn't fly a full list of any one pilot anyway because that means you're going all in on rock and someone with any paper will beat it. Lists need balance.

3) The Defender is mean to play against, especially in any 1v1 endgame. There's just no getting through their shields. This is why they're expensive; they require focused fire to damage at all, not just substantially but at all. On top of 4 shields and 3 hull that's worth a whole lot of points.

Spam isn't bad.

Its bad for those who don't believe in blocking the curmudgeon outta everything.

Or if you don't eat meat.

---

5Xs is not rock nor paper nor scissors. Its raw brutal death on a stick. The forbidden corndog.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Spam isn't bad.

Its bad for those who don't believe in blocking the curmudgeon outta everything.

I wouldn't inherently consider swarms to be spam. But the best (and only effective) swarms have a diversity of components, not just "count to 200 on one pilot" because someone else will just count to 200 on a slightly better pilot and you've lost everything.

200 points in one chassis is fine. 200 points in one pilot can be if they're kitted differently enough. 200 points in one ship build is always bad.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I wouldn't inherently consider swarms to be spam. But the best (and only effective) swarms have a diversity of components, not just "count to 200 on one pilot" because someone else will just count to 200 on a slightly better pilot and you've lost everything.

200 points in one chassis is fine. 200 points in one pilot can be if they're kitted differently enough. 200 points in one ship build is always bad.

Puhleeze. Have you actually played 5X? in 1e and in 2e? How about BBBBZ? how about 6Zs? 4 Tempests?

I've played it, about 10 times in 1e and about twice so far in 2e. Its a HARD question. Its a hard list building question too that most people don't see the nuance of. (Its not in 1e lol.)

I've made all of these work at some point, against tip-top tier 1 meta.

20 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Puhleeze. Have you actually played 5X? in 1e and in 2e? How about BBBBZ? how about 6Zs? 4 Tempests?

I've played it, about 10 times in 1e and about twice so far in 2e. Its a HARD question. Its a hard list building question too that most people don't see the nuance of. (Its not in 1e lol.)

I've made all of these work at some point, against tip-top tier 1 meta.

How do you beat this then? It’s a hard counter. 5 rookies against 5 Soontirs always goes one way.

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z181X126WWY181X126WWY181X127WWY181X127WWY181X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

You’re going all in on paper. Scissors wins every time.

Lists need diversity unless they’re severely underpriced (Such as FAA was in 1.0 - Initiative basically didn’t matter)

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

How do you beat this then? It’s a hard counter. 5 rookies against 5 Soontirs always goes one way.

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z181X126WWY181X126WWY181X127WWY181X127WWY181X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

You’re going all in on paper. Scissors wins every time.

Lists need diversity unless they’re severely underpriced (Such as FAA was in 1.0 - Initiative basically didn’t matter)

Have you actually tried it? I would take that on.

There are hard counters to many things. This one doesn't look like one to 5x.

Also the other way to beat is have everyone else beat it up bad in the tournament. Though, I gotta say looks like a fun list... Still probably not good. (I would probably put 2 hull upgrades instead...)

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

There are hard counters to many things.

There are good counters to many things. My point is that there are only hard counters to things that double-down on only one playstyle.

55 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There are good counters to many things. My point is that there are only hard counters to things that double-down on only one playstyle.

.... that's entirely not true. I've had numerous examples very recently of mixed lists.

14 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

How do you beat this then? It’s a hard counter. 5 rookies against 5 Soontirs always goes one way.

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Outmaneuver (6)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Saber Squadron Ace (36)
Predator (2)

Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z181X126WWY181X126WWY181X127WWY181X127WWY181X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

You’re going all in on paper. Scissors wins every time.

Lists need diversity unless they’re severely underpriced (Such as FAA was in 1.0 - Initiative basically didn’t matter)

I would 100% favor myself vs most other players if I were the X-Wings in this matchup. The Interceptor player only needs one bad variance swing to be screwed and I'm pretty confident in my ability to force enough dice trades to get there.

Conversely, I would also bet on myself if I were the Interceptor player, since I'm pretty confident in my ability to avoid the worst of those trades.

It's almost as if the game is fairly balanced and the player is more important than the lists. 🤔

Playing around with some Init 1 Silencers lately. They really do have a huge amount of mobility, and their statline is really solid. Having flown a reasonable amount of E-Wings also (before the points update, but still), I do think the Silencer is noticeably better.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Playing around with some Init 1 Silencers lately. They really do have a huge amount of mobility, and their statline is really solid. Having flown a reasonable amount of E-Wings also (before the points update, but still), I do think the Silencer is noticeably better.

You can only fit 3 in a list atm, would spamming 4 be broken? I am thinking about using a /ba Provocateur in a 4ths stead.

31 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am thinking about using a /ba Provocateur in a 4ths stead.

My 4th was an Outmaneuver Malarus. She was fine, nothing exceptional.

The game was... very flukey. My opponent's green dice as Imperial were very bad, so it probably doesn't really mean anything. Worst example was 3 hits into Duchess at Range 3 on the first turn.

35 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

You can only fit 3 in a list atm, would spamming 4 be broken?

Broken is a pretty loaded term. Having never flown SJE specifically, if you'd asked me yesterday, I'd have without hesitation said "4 is fine." Today? After one game with crazy dice? I hesitate a little. These things can really move. That's all I'd say. I'm less confident that four of these is a perfectly fine list. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

I'll also say a great compromise would have been to make them 50 points, but remove only the SJEngineer from Hyperspace.

Want to beat 5 X-wings? Bring 5 Jedi knights with CLT, it will be brutal beating, higher skill ship with double reposition option...

On 1/18/2020 at 5:02 PM, Archangelspiv said:

You can only fit 3 in a list atm, would spamming 4 be broken? I am thinking about using a /ba Provocateur in a 4ths stead.

4 certainly isn’t OP if 5 X isn’t.... FFG is simply very cautious, and that’s not terrible.

59 minutes ago, Redblock said:

Want to beat 5 X-wings? Bring 5 Jedi knights with CLT, it will be brutal beating, higher skill ship with double reposition option...

True, this is a great point.

5 hours ago, Redblock said:

Want to beat 5 X-wings? Bring 5 Jedi knights with CLT, it will be brutal beating, higher skill ship with double reposition option...

Have you actually tried this?

I played some games (about 4) with Jedi Knights with and without CLT. I doubt CLT makes THAT huge of a difference.