Two of the pilots have completely blank pilot abilities (unless you want to spend points on Tractor Beam Maul for some reason), and it’s arguable if Sun Fac is still playable even with it given that he’s 82 points for a single-reposition interceptor that can’t avoid shots with the tractor ability any more.

But do they do anything without the signature upgrade, which is how you’ll have to take them in Hyperspace? They don’t look like nearly two whole vultures as their coat would suggest...

2 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

Are Nantex playable without Ensnare?

No. /thread.

They are effectively neutered in HS, as the Petranaki Aces are certainly playable with Crack and Predator - both of which have been removed from HS. There are a few who have found some success with the Bughouse Swarm, which is five of the Hive Guards with Gravitic, but that is a tad pricey to get into. But yeah, the named guys are effectively dead in all formats. For practical effects. Ensnare is just plain bad for these guys now. They really HATE being hit at R1. Like, a lot. So Ensnare doesn't do much except for the possible edge case of moving someone onto an asteroid. And we all know how effective it is to build lists around edge cases.

edit: Realized I didn't really address the primary question: "Are Nantex playable without Ensnare?" The answer is, "Yes, but...." With the 'but' being that they aren't terribly good all by themselves. They are pretty **** squishy, and CIS struggles a little with heavy hitters to distract/take advantage of the Nantex fear factor. And now that Ensnare has been nuked, this problem is exacerbated. And that's pretty much it. I believe you will find that you are better off, *competitively*, just sticking to a Vulture swarm with a touch of Hyena support - and that you may now struggle a lot more against other lists. And Ensnare is now just a trap. Nothing more. Just a trap.

Nantex look incredibly interesting from afar when first released. Haven't had the pleasure to go against one or fly one, and now she's been pulled back due to what I presume is NPE for new players? Now, well, the chassis, even at a high I, simply cannot support her points I'll wager.

...now where's my tea?

Gravitic deflection does shore up their weakness a bit. They're not worth as much without ensnare, but that's where the large price tag comes from. Predator also makes that bullseye jucier (Edit: forgot that's not hyperspace), and at I4 they should do okay in hyperspace.

Berwer Kret could actually be quite good with a droid army and maybe Treacherous. Curious what something like this could do:

Berwer Kret (40)
Gravitic Deflection (5)
Treacherous (2)

DBS-32C (40)
TA-175 (9)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Discord Missiles (4)
Grappling Struts (1)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Grappling Struts (1)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z358X255W228Y328XW239WWY279XW208WY279X224W208WY279XW208WY279XW208WY279XW208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

You can use 32C to roll a vulture into obstruction almost every turn, forcing your opponent to shoot at the vultures instead, which generates tons of calculates with TA-175... Maybe it's a pipedream but it seems kinda fun. At least you're likely to end up with a favorable endgame piece. Probably needs more bid but I don't have any suggestions.

I guess if you really want to make Chertek work, you could consider bringing Maul with a tractor beam, but I doubt that would ever pay for itself (that said, Maul's pretty good in his own right now).

I don't think we've had enough time to adjust to the very-different Hyperspace format that rolled out on Thursday to answer this question. It is interesting to note that Gorgol picked up a Modification slot, though. In Extended, I think they're possible to play, but in a very small ship-count list.

1 hour ago, Matanui3 said:

But do they do anything without the signature upgrade, which is how you’ll have to take them in Hyperspace? They don’t look like nearly two whole vultures as their coat would suggest...

Yes. They have two signature upgrades, and the other one - Gravetic Deflection - is a lot better than you'd think. I've played quite a few games with them and in all but one I've had na'er a copy of Ensnare in sight.

I completely agree that with Ensnare out of the picture, Chertek is as dead as a doornail. He costs more than a Petranaki Arena Ace for a pilot ability that doesn't work without a source of tractor tokens, that can only come from a price-increased tractor beam on an already pretty expensive Sith Inflitrator.

Sun Fac is a hesitant maybe. At 54 points, you're basically buying him for I6. Not that that's an entirely awful choice; Soontir, Wedge, Resistance/Scum Han Anakin and Quickdraw have all been pulled out of Hyperspace*, and Vader loses Supernatural/Precognitive Reflexes and Afterburners. As a result, I'd suggest there aren't an awful lot of I6 pilots to compete with; Fenn Rau, Vonreg and Poe are basically 'it'. Does that mean sinking 20 points into getting I6 is worth it relative to a basic Hive Guard?

For me? No. Your mileage may vary.

Gravetic Deflection stapled on to one Talent Slot means he can use Pinpoint Tractor Array without buggering up his own defence too much, but as you noted his own pilot ability is pretty hard to trigger. His second talent upgrade is pretty pointless, too - most talents aren't hyperspace legal, and of those that are....Daredevil, Expert Handling and Outmanoeuvre don't work on a Nantex (no boost or forward arc), Intimidation and Squad Leader seem a poor use of an expensive ace, and I've never found Snap Shot that reliable. Treacherous might be a nice choice, I guess?

Maul with a Tractor Beam and Sun Fac with Gravetic Deflection is 127 points - leaving you enough for a trio of droid fighters, or you can accept you're just trying to use him as an arc-dodging ace with a functionally blank pilot ability.

Berwer Kret might also get more use if there are fewer I6 pilots to out-dance him and a bunch of lock-happy droid bombers to benefit from his ability.

Gorgol....I don't think is that amazing. I just find his ability to use Afterburners and Pinpoint Tractor Array awesome, making him one of the fastest ships in the game.

What I've seen work well is Stalgasin Hive Guard with Gravetic Deflection. A mob of 5 of them is surprisingly good in close quarters, given the fact they have every speed of turn and bank, and can rotate their mobile arc to fire sideways. Deflection lets you use your Pinpoint Tractor Array to reposition without dealing with most of the downsides, and for that matter lets one ship tractor itself to 'protect' a wounded wing-bug by granting it rerolls on its full agility.

* Beware of Interdictor-class Cruisers!

I'm out of the loop. I recall when the stats for these came out it was declared the death of the 2.0 maneuver game. Has that not come to pass?

13 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

I'm out of the loop. I recall when the stats for these came out it was declared the death of the 2.0 maneuver game. Has that not come to pass?

It did, though not because of the stats. But it's not hyperspace legal, ensnare got more expensive (28 points for Sun Fac!), and the new tractor mechanic means Sunfac won't arcdodge anymore.

It lasted just a short time.

In fairness, the final few rounds at worlds (top 8, I think?) featured a total of zero Nantex, ensnaring or otherwise, so they clearly are beatable in a tournament setting despite the naysayers.

But I think FFG did the right thing pulling them from hyperspace because facing them simply isn't much fun ...

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

But I think FFG did the right thing pulling them from hyperspace because facing them simply isn't much fun ...

Yeah, there were another couple little things that got nerfed with this points update, and the cries of “it wasn’t even that competitive!” seem to forget about this. They even said it in an article with the Trip Ups nerf, I think—something doesn’t have to be unbeatable to be plain unfun to play against.

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

the new tractor mechanic means Sunfac won't arcdodge anymore.

He can, just not with ensnare. Pinpoint tractor array still gives him a red-token-free, action-free boost or barrel roll plus the ability to shoot sideways,on an I6 pilot.

Dodging arcs without also getting a consequence free reposition of the enemy too is obviously harder, but perfectly possible...

They're now just a CIS analogue to the interceptor or RZ-2 rather than some bizarre hypermanouvrable turret-armed quadjumper.

basically, will being able to turn 90 degrees mean that the tractor ship can now almost always shoot back? (assuming no asteroid)?

Also, can you rotate 90degrees if you have a stress already?

I've tried the Nantex only ONCE before this nerf to Ensnare. It's Han Gunner (Scum) all over again - nerfed to oblivion and out tof the game. Now, we'll have to wait until July to get it reduced (if they are).

I agree on removing it from Hyperspace, though.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

He can, just not with ensnare.

Honestly I think he'll be even more fun with Ensnare now, for both players. If he pulls off the dodge, great! Without banked boosts that's tougher than it is for most aces.

But if he doesn't, he has a really hard choice:

a) If he's in someone's arc that's outside R1 (and with the prevalence of swarms that will be quite common) he's tractored and that's bad news.

b) If he's in someone's arc that's inside R1, he can use ensnare (yay?) BUT if he does they get to shoot back at R1, guaranteed. Better hope you can initiative-kill them.

c) If he did pull off the dodge in the first place, he now has a choice: Increase my odds on the shot, but take return fire, or just use the 2-turret? Neither is that appealing...

So now there are just more choices involved all around, making Sun Fac a bit harder to play and easier to play against, and more fun either way.

55 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

1. basically, will being able to turn 90 degrees mean that the tractor ship can now almost always shoot back? (assuming no asteroid)?

2. Also, can you rotate 90degrees if you have a stress already?

1. In most cases yes.

2. Yes, there is no "if not stressed" stipulation on the tractored ship rotating.

A buddy of mine was trying Sun-Fac without Ensnare over a month ago. Just using him for his I6, I think with Predator and Crackshot. He seemed to be pleased with results in open play, but never figured out how to work him into a list.

I want to try them out with Gravitic Deflection beside Maul/Dooku/O-66 with a Tractor Beam and Vulture/Hyena swarm and see how it works out, just for fun if nothing else.

the i4 might work naked? maybe? in the right list? turrets are good

they might need to drop the generics by something in the 3-5 points range, maybe, to compete with other options in an ensnareless world

34 minutes ago, svelok said:

the i4 might work naked? maybe? in the right list? turrets are good

The I5 seems like a better fit to me, especially with the droid gunships wanting to lock more than calculate. That's the only place I see a red calculate action being super useful.

I almost wish Calculate was the one action you were allowed to perform multiple times in a round...

It also makes me wonder:

Sun Fac (54)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Berwer Kret (40)
Gravitic Deflection (5)

Darth Maul (65)
Heightened Perception (3)
Tractor Beam (3)
Count Dooku (10)
General Grievous (3)

Total: 188

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z357X255WY358X255WY272X72W13WW218W219WWWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

It suffers badly from a lack of Hate (which would probably make it almost good) but I wonder if it could still do work. It's quite an ace list for CIS: 2 I5s and an I6! Chertek might even be better than Berwer Kret, depending which you need between Initiative and mods. At a 1-pt difference I tend to jump for I5 but his ability is basically blank.

this is the least bad looking hs nantex I can come up with:

Darth Maul (65)
Informant (5)
General Grievous (3)
Cluster Mines (8)
Scimitar (4)
Ship total: 85 Half Points: 43 Threshold: 5

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Total: 199

54 minutes ago, svelok said:

this is the least bad looking hs nantex I can come up with:

Darth Maul (65)
Informant (5)
General Grievous (3)
Cluster Mines (8)
Scimitar (4)
Ship total: 85 Half Points: 43 Threshold: 5

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Total: 199

But what do you do with it? Wouldn't 5 Vultures or 4 Hyenas just be better?

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

1. In most cases yes.

2. Yes, there is no "if not stressed" stipulation on the tractored ship rotating.

yeahhhh..... Goodbye nantex

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Yes. They have two signature upgrades, and the other one - Gravetic Deflection - is a lot better than you'd think. I've played quite a few games with them and in all but one I've had na'er a copy of Ensnare in sight.

What I've seen work well is Stalgasin Hive Guard with Gravetic Deflection. A mob of 5 of them is surprisingly good in close quarters, given the fact they have every speed of turn and bank, and can rotate their mobile arc to fire sideways. Deflection lets you use your Pinpoint Tractor Array to reposition without dealing with most of the downsides, and for that matter lets one ship tractor itself to 'protect' a wounded wing-bug by granting it rerolls on its full agility.

With 1 reroll from GravDef, a tractored Nantex essentially "gained back" the missing agility.

So it's a 3 agility, 4 health ship, with a 2-dice turret.

It's an RZ-2, basically.

I'd say GravDef Nantex are probably playable.

Are they good? Well, with the partial un-nerf of the RZ-2 plus new pilots, and the buff to the TIE Striker, I'd rather fly something other than Nantex.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Sun Fac is a hesitant maybe. At 54 points, you're basically buying him for I6. Not that that's an entirely awful choice; Soontir, Wedge, Resistance/Scum Han Anakin and Quickdraw have all been pulled out of Hyperspace*, and Vader loses Supernatural/Precognitive Reflexes and Afterburners. As a result, I'd suggest there aren't an awful lot of I6 pilots to compete with; Fenn Rau, Vonreg and Poe are basically 'it'. Does that mean sinking 20 points into getting I6 is worth it relative to a basic Hive Guard?

For me? No. Your mileage may vary.

I feel like the major card a non-Ensnare Sun Fac is missing is the not-in-Hyperspace Trick Shot. They're an Init 6 highly mobile turret, who can fly over an obstacle and still get a reposition. Seems like Trick Shot would be an obvious pick for them, if it was in the format.

11 hours ago, Burius1981 said:

A buddy of mine was trying Sun-Fac without Ensnare over a month ago. Just using him for his I6, I think with Predator and Crackshot. He seemed to be pleased with results in open play, but never figured out how to work him into a list.

I want to try them out with Gravitic Deflection beside Maul/Dooku/O-66 with a Tractor Beam and Vulture/Hyena swarm and see how it works out, just for fun if nothing else.

The issue with Sun Fac is that - being I6 - to trigger his ability you MUST take either Maul or Dooku with Heightened Perception, as it's the only way CIS currently has to land that tractor token before Sun Fac shoots - Swarm Tactics is also no longer Hyperspace legal (and frankly chaining a Nantex to the not-enormously-manoeuvrable-by-comparison Infiltrator would be a bad plan anyway).

But yes, I figure that at 54 points, he's not a bad buy just as an Initiative 6 CIS Calibrated Laser Targeting Aethersprite analogue.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like the major card a non-Ensnare Sun Fac is missing is the not-in-Hyperspace Trick Shot. They're an Init 6 highly mobile turret, who can fly over an obstacle and still get a reposition. Seems like Trick Shot would be an obvious pick for them, if it was in the format.

Indeed. But if you're playing extended, you might as well still consider Ensnare. Yes, it's painfully expensive but frankly there's a reason. Trick Shot isn't a bad call, though.

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

So it's a 3 agility, 4 health ship, with a 2-dice turret.

It's an RZ-2, basically.

I'd say GravDef Nantex are probably playable.

Are they good? Well, with the partial un-nerf of the RZ-2 plus new pilots, and the buff to the TIE Striker, I'd rather fly something other than Nantex.

They are. They have their strengths and weaknesses relative to the resistance ship - since their ability doesn't give stress they rarely have to pull a blue move, for example, but then they can only 'straight' boost, not bank. RZ-2s can swing their guns back, Nantex can point them sideways. RZ-2 have critical-resistant shields, Nantex have their primary-3 centreline. RZ-2s are slightly cheaper, Nantex have an I6 pilot. I think there's good arguments both ways.

10 hours ago, svelok said:

this is the least bad looking hs nantex I can come up with:

Darth Maul (65)
Informant (5)
General Grievous (3)
Cluster Mines (8)
Scimitar (4)
Ship total: 85 Half Points: 43 Threshold: 5

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Petranaki Arena Ace (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Total: 199

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But what do you do with it? Wouldn't 5 Vultures or 4 Hyenas just be better?

Probably. Grievous is a weird choice in a smaller squad since you recover your damage-preventing charges after friendlies get shot down...

Informant + Nantex is not a bad idea - since you can reposition to arc dodge based on the Informant (why not "Sense", out of curiousity?) but if you're working off sneaky looks at your opponent's dial, you don't actually need Petranaki Aces - regular Hive Guard would do just as well, and that shaves 12 points off the squad right there...

10 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The I5 seems like a better fit to me, especially with the droid gunships wanting to lock more than calculate. That's the only place I see a red calculate action being super useful.

A Treacherous/Gravetic Deflection Berwer Kret comes in just shy of 50 points, and you can have a half-dozen Techno Union Bombers to act as blockers, swarmers, hit-cancelling cannon fodder and general purpose goons. Have them lock a target and if Kret hits it, everyone gets a free calculate into the bargain. It's hardly Howlrunner levels of force multiplier, but then Kret is in a rather more capable ship in and of himself....

I always wished they had made Sun Fac and cherteks abilities work if they are tractorred(?). Feels like it would have always been more of a personal choice and not the need to put ensnare on them. they would have also been hurt less by ensnare being removed from HS.