Hi,

Having played and analyzed the system I determined that the Scatter special abilty is utterly useless when compared to the autogun or stub automatic.
Also it doesn't realy feel like a shotgun so I thought up the following changes:

Scatter (revised)

If fired at an opponent at Point Blank Range, each two degrees of success add an additional 1d10 of damage uptil a maximum of 2d10, additionally every two degree of successes also give a -10 penalty to dodge to a maximum of -20.

When using this weapon on semi-auto or full-auto the maximum is 1d10 additionally damage though penalty is still capped at -20.

All armour points double at long and extreme range.

Please give me some feedback...and lets improve our game...

GrtZ,

Santiago...

I like that rule. I will have to add that to my games.

It's a start but I would like more. Scatter ability should work at short range IMO, not just Point-blank. Buckshot just doesn't scatter that quickly. I like having the damage increase by 1d10 instead, although thats' kinda silly against armor... suddenly shotguns become the best anti-armor weapons because of the high max damage. maybe having armor count against each extra d10 but toughness only counting once (like with dual shot)?

Also beyond short range there could be a bonus to hit (which might negate some range penalties). At long range and beyond the attacks should retain primitive status.

Friend of the Dork said:

I like where your going with this. But I dont like dual shot....so any scatter rules based on this seem to have problems.

I dont really see any reason to even bother with most standard heavy weapons, excluding the super heavys like las cannon, auto cannon, assault cannon etc

dual shot trantors with dum dums and mighty shot against unarmored monsters, or open helmeted dudes yield:

2d10+18 = 29 damage with a near 20% empra fury for gauranteed pwnage, not a space marine wrecking, but your average ganger with a few talents can hurt him.

Dual strike with 5 str and chain axes and crippling blow yields 2d10+22 TEARING ==40 damage (42 if best quality) with a 35ish % chance of Hitting the fury for total carnage. Thats Space marine destruction in 1 round.

linearblade said:

Unless he dodges or parries. If he parries with a power sword - quite likely, given a Marine's skill-at-arms and the +10 for it being a balanced weapon - then he's probably also removed your ability to Dual-Strike by cutting one of the axes in half (can't dual strike with only one weapon).

Oh, and your calculations are a little off. Assuming you mean Crushing Blow (+2 damage in melee) not Crippling Strike (+4 critical damage in melee), each chainaxe (common quality) deals 1d10+11 R, Tearing, Pen 2 damage, reduced by armour (8 for power armour) to 1d10+5, rolled twice, added together for an average of 24, from which Toughness Bonus is removed (8 for a Marine), to 16... in Purge the Unclean, Brother-Sergeant Agamorr has 20 wounds, so assuming that he has a few more than average, that's either Heavily Injured or a minor Critical Hit for the Marine. It hurts, but it's not instant death.

Dual Strike with a pair of Power Fists, however... that's a different matter.

I made a reply but i vanished. Point was, using the dual shot technique will actually LOWER the damage. Also since its only a single shot it mean mighty shot applies only once. Anyone with an accurate basic weapon will probably be better against armored foes.

Friend of the Dork said:

Mighty shot might only apply once but the targets toughness bonus also only applys once with dual shot/strike. So if the target has a TB of 3 or more dual shot comes out ahead that two separate shots.

Though I don't see where you are getting "mighty shot only applies once" from.

Bilateralrope said:

It comes from firing a single shotgun blast. It is a single shot, a single attack, and thus mighty shot applies once. If you look at the OP it would seem that both TB and Armor applies once to an attack you can get 2d10 extra damage. Pretty tough.

I like the general idea you are shooting for here, but I absolutely have a problem with adding extra D10s to shotgun damage instead of the current granting of multiple hits. Suddenly a shotgun is a great weapon for blowing up bunkers and Leman Russ Battle Tanks... Not cool.

As an alternative perhaps consider keeping point blank as it is in the rules already (it is disgustingly deadly against anything not in HEAVY armour!) and allowing the scatter quality to grant an extra hit at short range for every 3DOS (instead of the usual 2DOS). At long and extreme range there is no possibility of multiple hits from a single shell (no Scatter quality) and the attack gains the Primitive quality.

You can represent solid slug ammo by using the Manstopper ammo rules: Remove the Scatter quality but replace your Pen0 with Pen3!

I personally don't think Shotguns are underpowered in DH, but I do find the Scatter rule a little... odd... in use.

A more radical approach, but easier to keep track of would be to give your shotguns a "narrow flame template" (say maybe 15 degree cone 10m long?). Anything in the blast tests Agility to not be hit. Then you chose to shoot the template or "normal". Rather clumsy and awkward I realize: Making this up on the fly....

Anyways, chop this up with a hatchet, sift through the scraps and see if any of it is useful for you.

In this thread over in the Rogue Trader* forum N0-1_H3r3 came up with a nice alteration to scatter: Double all range modifiers for scatter weapons.

*http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efpag=0&efid=160&efcid=3&efidt=330129

ZillaPrime said:

I agree competely on the danger of making the shotty be a minature armor-piercing cannnon.

As for shotguns being good enough, I don't know. Poor range, and scatter only works within 3 meters. Shotguns can't be used in melee unless they are also pistols (sawn off shotguns are popular), and a typical autogun will out-perform a pump-action shotgun and even a combat shotgun on all ranges. Point blank single shot is better with the shotgun, but who would want to shoot single shot in PB anyway? Hmm do I want 6 bullets to hit or only 1? Hmmmm....

The full-auto shotgun is of course very good at close quarters, but has a fairly low ammo capacity and cannot use Manstopper ammo.

And in the end the rules are neither fun enough or realistic enough as it is. It's main advantage is rooted in fluff, not crunch.

Using an area attack could work.. it'll be like the blunderbuss in WHFRPG (which is incidentally quite bad for anyone except those with low BS), but that could make it too much like a flamer.

So no, extra hits is still the best way I think. The point is more damage at PB and possibly short range (buckshot really doesen't scatter much between 3 meters and 20 meters), but not better penetration (which means armor should be effective against each "hit."), and maybe a bonus to hit at longer ranges as the buckshot scatters (combined with primitive quality).

So here's my try: Every additional hit only causes 1d10 damage (instead of full weapon damage), which armor applies to but not TB.

PB range: works as normal, except every DoS causes a new hit. # Hits are capped at 10.

short range: +10 BS (stacks with normal bonus), every 2 DoS causes new hit.

normal range: +20 BS, no extra hits.

Long Range: +10 BS (making it -10 with range penalty). 2*armor if hit.

Extreme Range: Not available.

So how will the effect of these rules be?

1. Creatures with high armor will be harder to kill at PB.

2. Creatures with high or even supernatural TB will be easier to kill at PB and short range.

3. It will be easier to hit as shot scatters, and a generally good weapon at short ranges, thus useful for combat inside buildings, spaceships, urban environment etc.

The goal with these rules is to make the shotgun a useful weapon in particular situations, but not replace the usefulness of autoguns and other stubbers. It's main weakness will be range and penetration, possibly ammo capacity.

Come to think of it I'll remove the long range BS bonus.

Friend of the Dork said:

1) The Combat Shotgun (core) and the Skitarii model (IH) are both multi-fire brutality when used in close range work.

2) NEVER remove Toughness reduction for non-supernatural or "poison" attacks! Never, ever, no way, not in my game EVER! This makes small lead or steel pellets MORE dangerous to big tough Tokyo-stomping monsters and daemons than much more "powerful" weapons like that HereTek "gatling-melta" that some crazy Logician is cooking up in his basement.

3) 10 potential hits from a single shotgun shell for a half-action? SERIOUS game balance issue here. Especially if you combine this with the ignore toughness idea things get rapidly absurd... Assuming NO ranged combat talents except weapon training (SP) you are looking at the potential for a single shell of buckshot to inflict 10D10+40-(TB) damage! Now add in Mighty Shot and a full-auto or even burst-capable shotgun...

I don't think any of us are close yet.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

hmm, I think your calc is slightly off as well

1d10 tearing yields 8 on average right? (roll twice as many times, the lowest half of the rolls, followed by average the rest = 8)

IE, the rolls:

keep the high rolls?

10 10

9 9

8 8

7 7

6 6

sum 80 / 10 rolls = 8?

discarding the low rolls-

55

44

33

22

11

so

1d10+5 TEARING x 2 ==

8 + 5 = 13 x 2 = 26 damage... however, you ARE correct, Brother Sergeant Agamorr still standing.

if you take into account the relavtively high chance of emps fury, he is in a dangerous situation. IF you had crippling blow as well (ironically after this post I revised my low opinion of it LOL), then he is in serious trouble.

None the less however, my point still rings true. its awefully powerful, and seems to me, that if the only thing that withstands your dual strike with 475 throne weapon, is a space marine (and only sometimes), then there is a serious problem with it. Thus, why I think scatter revision might be slightly too powerful if you base it off of dual strike.

RE: powerswords... Yea. you dont bust out your axes unless homie-be-bad has already parried, or you decide not to engage him in melee or use your own p-swords as well...

or you have a powerfield hooked up to your chain sword (yikes) or super cheese them by making the chain blades be made of lathe metal?

a lathe metal eviscerator in the main 2 hands and a lathe metal chain axe in the mechadendrite for dualwield lightning attacks... ;P

but you do only roll 1 extra damage dice for tearing and discard the lowest one

edit: since the 2d10+X comes from two different weapons (with dual wield) you roll twice 2d10 and discard the lowest each time... so you should be corect on the maths

Sirion said:

The Tech priest in my group will lulz at this. I can see him building it now.

ZillaPrime said:

Well yeah one of my players said as much. I agree extra hit per 1 DoS is too much, and basically ignoring unatural toughness might be a bad idea.

I don't quite agree that Combat shotgun is that good though, even on point blank. On say, 6 DoS you hit with 3 shells and 3 extra Scatter hits (IIRC)... thats' no worse than a PB autogun can do, which might even be more effective with Manstopper. It's decent, but a far cry from overpowered. Vanaheim full auto on PB range might be another matter....

So here's a new suggestion:

PB range: As before

Short range: Every 2 DoS causes a secondary hit, but only 1d10 damage per extra hit which can't generate Fury. Thus you might get some nice hits up tp 15 meters (common close combat range), but not very effective against those with high TB and/or armor. Close to your own suggestion, but trades damage for and increased chance of multiple hits. Every 3 DoS favors the insanely skilled too much, shotgun is supposed to be easy to use and hit with. I think it'd still like a bonus to hit at short range but I don't know how balanced that is...

One of the Guardsmen in my game has a primal love of shotguns, so I have had many opportunities to see their strengths and weaknesses in DH combat at this point.

Overall I would agree that an Autogun, Lasgun or Boltgun would be better all-around weapons, but those shotguns do shine at close in work.

In particular, the burst and full-auto capable models are where the "eeew!" factor comes in. The extra hits from the Scatter quality are "per hit" based on DOS from the attack. Burst and Auto-fire determine their hits using DOS as well, so you get a stacking situation here. Say you get a good burst of buckshot off and scored 4 DOS in the attack (not hard with a +40 for point blank and burst) then you have 3 shells hitting (1 +1/2DOS = 3) and 3 hits from each shell (same math) gives you 9 shotgun hits on your unfortunate target. Assuming no talents besides Basic (SP) and no special ammo loaded you are facing nine 1D10+4 hits. Good luck dodging THAT! A full-auto version is just WRONG in the same scenario: Assume ROF of 5 and your 4DOS hit (stupid-easy with a +50) becomes 5 shells at 3 hits each.... 15 separate damage rolls at 1D10+4 each.... And 15 separate chances to Fury!

The abovementioned Guardsman forced me to improvise a new way for the team to get into a villain's lab in the early days of my campaign. He literally reduced the cyber-monster that had an electronic key to the starship bulkhead door that had been installed for the lab to gobbets of foil and salsa with his Combat Shotgun! Needless to say anything that can reduce a HereTek zombie-servitor to chutney is going to be BAD for delicate electronic devices....

We have also seen a basic PDF trooper armed with a pump-shotgun blow apart several Combat Servitors during Dust and Ash. Needless to say we shipped this Trooper off to the Tricorn for further training and indoctrination...

Where they absolutely SUCK is at ranged work (say anything much past 30m). Get a nice Lasgun or Hunting Rifle for this. In that category a Longlas is pretty much like sex with a scope and adjustable buttstock.

John (the above Guardsman) recently got his hands on a shiny new good-quality Shotcannon and is just itching to try his new toy out on some deserving baddies. Sure, it is no good for the discreet missions, but sometimes you just need to drop the Emperor's Hammer on things.

Ok, so I'm not sure if inspiration just struck or just another flirtation with tech-heresy. If you are looking to tweak shotguns still maybe try this:

Point-blank hits gain the Tearing quality in addition to the usual Scatter.

Short Range hits benefit from Scatter.

Medium Range hits are as normal.

Long/Extreme range hits are as normal, but also gain the Primitive quality.

I think you may have worked out the number of hits incorrectly. Scatter in no way suggests that you get an extra hit for every degree of success x the number of extra hits with burst fire. It simply states you get an extra hit per 2 DoS. The maths would be (based on 4 degress of success) would be 1 basic hit + 2 bonus hits semi auto burst + 2 bonus for the scatter quality. Scatter grants an extra hit per 2 DoS and Semi-Auto Burst does too... that's it. Scatter is not worked out "per hit". With those results you get 5 hits. The hypothetical full auto one would score 7 hits (1 normal + 4 bonus for full auto-burst and 2 bonus for scattering).

Unless it has been errated to the way you have been playing it?

ZillaPrime said:

Scatter already doubles all Armor Points at Long and Extreme ranges; last sentence describing the quality. I think adding Primitive at those ranges would just be too much "nerfing."

Borithan said:

I think you may have worked out the number of hits incorrectly. Scatter in no way suggests that you get an extra hit for every degree of success x the number of extra hits with burst fire. It simply states you get an extra hit per 2 DoS. The maths would be (based on 4 degress of success) would be 1 basic hit + 2 bonus hits semi auto burst + 2 bonus for the scatter quality. Scatter grants an extra hit per 2 DoS and Semi-Auto Burst does too... that's it. Scatter is not worked out "per hit". With those results you get 5 hits. The hypothetical full auto one would score 7 hits (1 normal + 4 bonus for full auto-burst and 2 bonus for scattering).

Unless it has been errated to the way you have been playing it?

This has not been errate'd; it has, however, been explained just as you say. The extra hits for Scatter are indeed calculated separately from the hits generated by a successful semi- or full-auto burst, and then added together. Your example is spot on.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Edit : This forum software annoys me with quote failures.

ZillaPrime said:

Hmm not too bad. Not sure if PB needs the Tearing quality tho. I'm asuming the Long/Extreme range was just stating the current rules and not replacing them.

It's either that or Vanaheims are gonna be standard issue for Abitrators etc. After all Vs are Common, not Scarce as Combat Shotguns. They are more expensive, but SOOOO worth it.

It might be an issue about Full Auto being OP in general.

ZillaPrime: How could the PDF'er hurt the servitor? I thought they had around 14 damage reduction all together with Machine trait, armor and TB. Did you allow Fury? Yup, just checked. Gun Servitors have armor plating (6), machine (4) and TB (4). Which means that no shotguns can hurt them at ANY range UNLESS it's fired by someone noticed by the Emperor or the Chaos Gods (Touched by the Fates).

Actually this is the major weakness of shotguns as they stand, as an autogun with manstopper rounds CAN hurt those servitors and will be doing more hits anyway at PB range and of course at ALL other ranges.

this is again a matter of does armour stack with the machine trait or not... if it doesn't it comes down to 10 damage reduction

Sirion said:

You know what, with the Gun Servitor I think it's 10. I just noticed it has Armor: None (6), Machine (4) and the Armor plating trait (which gives +2 armor).. so in this case it seems like it has total 6 APs.

With the Combat Servitor it's another matter entirely as they are decked in Carapace (6) and has the same traits.. for some reason the APs are not added together though, or the guy who wrote the entries messed up.

I've been playing my servitors as terminators basically, almost invulnerable to normal guns. The Acolytes have always managed though. Especially Combat Servitors with their ridiculous low speed can be overcome with tactics when the Manstoppers are lacking.

Friend of the Dork said:

I think that's just a goof-up in editing. It woudln't be the first.

After all, both the combat and gun servitor have a "6" listed in their armour section, just one with "carapace" listed and the other with "none". Likewise they both have the same armour giving traits in the same quantity. I think that perhaps the "carapace" found in the combat servitor is a hold-over from an earlier edition of the rules where the machine trait and armour plated hadn't been invented or worked differently and to show that servitors were half metal what-not, they figured it would be about equal to carapace armour, so gave it to them before realizing that they could achieve the same result with a trait or two.

Of course, that's just my guess. It just seems like an odd coincidence that both servitors have the same armour rating and traits to achieve that armour rating... which is also the armour rating of carapace...