I think the ammo partly was my fault I meant "inferno shells" (DH core book page 143 / RT core book page 137)

and at least for inferno shells you can do a normal full burst with your shotgun and depending on your rule itnerpretation the target must make 1 AG test or 1 AG test per hit and is set on fire if he fails... no primitive no single shot only... of course this works with bolter weapons as well

and shotgun > bolter is true as long as the house rules from op are used and the situation is point blank but only because (and this is wanted if I read correctly) shotgun+point blank > everything else

Shotgun+PB shouldn't beat bolter or plasma. Some weapons are better than others. But shotgun+PB ought to beat an autopistol or even an autogun, but it doesn't. Hence, it's not a viable alternative even when compared to weapons in about the same range of awesome.

If shotguns are to be viable beyond mere stub revolvers and las pistols there needs to be some equal advantage to balance the disadvantage of 30m range for a basic weapon and double ap at long range. One additional hit per two DoS at PB-melee doesn't balance out those disadvantages.

How about extending the range of scatters multi shot to short range and letting it get additional hits for 1 DoS instead of 2 in PB?

And yeah, full auto shotguns are nice, but so's full auto everything else . And once you add full auto to the shotgun you've got somehing that needs to be compared to better weapons, such as a bolter which can do full auto inferno shells with more damage, tearing, more penetration and longer range.

That's exactly one of the things I keep trying to point out. Shotgun + Point Blank realisticaly isn't more damaging then a autopistol (uzi) at PB range. It hurts more then a single bullet from an autopistol, but not more then a burst. The reason buckshot shotguns are used by criminals, police and hunters is because they're easy to hit with, not because they do more damage. Even now most of these groups go up to autoguns (assault rifles) when they can. Realisticly, the shotgun isn't that great of a weapon, only in stories and video games. I still think the best adjustment is inaccurate and +10% to hit.

OTOH, it's not really about realism. Realisticly you wouldn't survive a plasma shot to the head or gut heretics with a chainsword either, but there you go.

There's a really iconic and fun weapon in the equipment list that the rules make unviable, surely that's a problem?

Fair enough - The easiest way to make them more powerful, though, it just to increase their base damage, or give them a PB damage bonus.

Quicksilver said:

There is another way - double all modifiers for range on Scatter weapons. Point Blank becomes +60, Short Range becomes +20, Long Range becomes -20 and Extreme Range becomes -60. Emphasises their effectiveness at close range and their ineffectual nature at long range, boosts Scatter (because a BS 30 Naval Armsman with a Shotgun suddenly hits on a 90 or less, which in turn makes it easier to hit several times - a roll of 1 for that character hits 5 times), and gives them an edge against point-blank autofire (+50 to hit as a full action, or +60 to hit as a half action). It'll still not fare particularly well against heavily-armoured or extremely tough enemies (1d10+4 will only do so much against an Ork or an enemy in Power Armour, even at point blank), but that's what specialist ammo (I allow Manstoppers in Shotguns, but they lose the Scatter rule if so loaded; the Amputator Shells on page 136 of the Rogue Trader rulebook are a good alternative against tough instead of armoured foes) and special weapons are for.

oh! I like N0-1's idea. Covers a lot of issues with a very simple change.

Graspar said:

No iconic weapon of the contemporary world is viable in the 40k universe. And that's not really a problem, because 40k 'verse offers us a plethora of it's very own iconic weapons instead.

As in, this shotgun of yours is meant to suck. You're bringing a pea shooter into a bolter fight, so don't expect great results.

No iconic weapon of the contemporary world is viable in the 40k universe. And that's not really a problem, because 40k 'verse offers us a plethora of it's very own iconic weapons instead.

As in, this shotgun of yours is meant to suck. You're bringing a pea shooter into a bolter fight, so don't expect great results .

If you read the other posts of mine in this thread I've clearly stated that the shotgun should not be compared to a bolter, the bolter is clearly the superior weapon and that's how it should be. I'm not expecting to come out ahead if I bring a shotgun up against a bolter. However, against a stub auto I ought to be ahead, currently the shotgun looses that fight.

And yeah, double range modifiers is a GREAT fix. Stroke of genius.

Graspar said:

I read them, and I don't find the argument convincing. How is a shotgun more iconic than a submachine gun? Why should it perform better when they're both crude pea-shooters in the world chock-full of incredibly durable armors and futuristic weaponry?

Morangias said:

brings up the question again why is a compound bow or a crossbow primitive and a shotgun isn't...
talking about iconic and realistic and should be...

you can either have a system that works as is and use what ffg provides or you can modify and apply housreules
whatever you prefer go with it, but don't ever think your choice is better or realistic or the way everyone should handle it

Sirion said:

Alright, I'm calling off my commando of canon-nazi-ninjas. They were just on the way to take away your books for Doing It Wrong, but they won't do this anymore because you've shown me the light.

Or, we can assume that I wasn't going to do anything like that anyway, because I don't have my own squad of ninjas and if I had them, I'd find more compelling uses for them then bullying fellow geeks into my vision of RPG rules. Like, taking over the world or something. Anyway. Just because I disagree with a houserule and post my disagreement here doesn't make it an invalid houserule for you. Nothing I post can prevent you from using the houserule, unless you actually buy into my reasoning and it, but that'd be an act of your own free will. What I'm doing here is providing food for thought. Nothing more. So, maybe you should chill out a bit instead of bashing me for something I didn't do nor intended to do?

While we're at it, posts like yours are the reason I loathe Golden Rule. Sure, everybody can change any rule. But it doesn't make a valid logical argument for changing anything. And any time I question some houserule hoping for an interesting answer that perhaps might kick my brain in a new direction, I hear this thought-killing cliche instead.

I read them, and I don't find the argument convincing. How is a shotgun more iconic than a submachine gun? Why should it perform better when they're both crude pea-shooters in the world chock-full of incredibly durable armors and futuristic weaponry?

Never said it was. Only that the shotgun, as is, is a no go compared to the other weapons in it's range of as you put it "crude pea shooters". That is, there's no support in the mechanics for equipping ganger #6 with a shotgun instead of an autopistol or autogun like #1-5 already has. Even if you plan only for combat at point blank range.

Morangias said:

I'm sorry only the first half of my post was related to the quote(your post)

For myself, I don't think shotguns are going to find enough use to make a house rule worth it.

That being said, Shotguns are Iconic for being redickulously effective at close range (see Halo and most other FPS, along with a good hadful of mostly zombie movies) the same way MP5s are Iconic for being usable in one hand (Bond and other action flicks), and cars are Iconic for exploding when ever driven by a NPC. So I see the desire to replicate that, and if shotguns are going to be used enough, I think N0-1's idea is the simpilest way to produce that effect.

Also worth noting that the system assumes this is a 'modern' shotgun or a 'modern' autopistol. There's no reason a low-tech world might not have a 'primitive' shotgun or a high tech world might not have a "modern" crossbow.

Graspar said:

I'd say that a lasgun is a much more iconic weapon for 40k, yet I don't see any Rogue Trader PCs carrying them. Not because a lasgun is a bad weapon, but because RTs can afford much better gear.

Also, put me down as another person who likes N0-1_H3r3's idea.

Bilateralrope said:

Not Rogue Traders per say. But it is the preffered weapon of the Arbites and, more relevantly, Navel Armsmen.

I like N0-1_H3R3's but still think that scatter range could effect out the weapons full range ( not that it'll be effective past short range anyway).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

YOINK !

Shotguns are known for doing lots of damage to tough, but unarmored, enemies (eg, zombies). This could be accomplished by increasing damage, but also giving weapons with Scatter the Primitive quality. This reduces the relative effectiveness of toughness vs. armor.

The shotgun's lack of penetration is better represented by having a base pen of 0, like it does.

My idea for letting shotguns work against zombies and their ilk is to combine their damage rolls after damage is deducted for armor but before damage is deducted for toughness. I think this would be better accomplished by making a new trait then tacking it on to scatter, which gets used for things besides shotguns.

I decided to use short range instead of point blank range for Scatter....I tried it and it works pretty good

You could even go so far as to allow Scatter to grant 1 additional hit per two DoS at Short range and 1 additional hit per DoS at Point Blank range.

If you want realism, scatter should simply have a +10% bonus to hit along with the added hit at PB, as they are good at hitting thing but really aren't that lethal past 30-40m because the shot pattern so spread out.

I suppose you could go with +1 damage per dos after PB range along with the bonus to hit I suggest, and it would still be "realistic", but Shotguns are not better than autopistols when you actually hit with more than one bullet.

N0-1_H3r3 has a great idea, but another thing that a lot of you seem to want to help the shotgun become better at close range would be to add the Concussive trait from DW to short range and closer fire.

This trait would stun or potentially knock down an opponent, making it much more deadly in close combat. Additionally while not stated that I can remember, another classic shotgun round is the beanbag round, replace scatter with concussive, make primitive and cause fatigue damage.

Making all typical shot rounds Primitive might not be a bad way to mitigate allowing Scatter to score multiple hits at all ranges. Sure, the shot would hit lots of times, but it's pretty **** ineffective against thick armour.

I'd also like to note that we don't really need to model 'realistic' shotguns, but rather stick with modeling cinematic shotguns.