Hi,

Having played and analyzed the system I determined that the Scatter special abilty is utterly useless when compared to the autogun or stub automatic.
Also it doesn't realy feel like a shotgun so I thought up the following changes:

Scatter (revised)

If fired at an opponent at Point Blank Range, each two degrees of success add an additional 1d10 of damage uptil a maximum of 2d10, additionally every two degree of successes also give a -10 penalty to dodge to a maximum of -20.

When using this weapon on semi-auto or full-auto the maximum is 1d10 additionally damage though penalty is still capped at -20.

All armour points double at long and extreme range.

Please give me some feedback...and lets improve our game...

GrtZ,

Santiago...

dunno about RT (a quick check on the corebook gives only standard shotguns which are indeeda bit effect-less) but IH (from DH) has a Vanaheim pattern shotgun which is capable of all three fire modes and has scatter (as well as a built in red dot laser sight and a melee attachment if I remember correctly)

having a BS of 40 point blank (+30) and full auto (+20) rolling a 50 results in 5 hits for full auto + 2 hits for scatter for 7 hits total...

scatter is supposed to be weaker then bursts but it works with single shots and having a pistol with the scatter quality and dualshot is effectively enough as is in my opinion (and with these pistol you can even fight in melee and it is rather effective to walk those 3 meters to your enemy who has only a basic weapon because he is rather helpless until he changes weapons (or has a melee attachment))

go for inferno shells to set your enemy on flame in the same attack

but most of this is about the listed weapons which have the scatter quality not about scatter itself

so my question is do you want to make it more powerfull? revise it because you just dislike it? or do you maybe think it is too powerfull?

I see shotguns as special purpose weapons and the special purpose is extreme tight space situations where you need to squeeze advantage out of a situation where both you and your opponent have point blank

I think realism is not intended to be achieved neither by the existing rules nor by your house rules and therefore is not a matter of discussion?

so basically you are substituting extra hits for extra damage, and adding more difficulty to dodge...

I'ld roll a character dualwielding shotgun pistols with dual shot and have (point blankor melee provided) not a 2d10+8 damage on a hit against double armour and another one per 2 extra DoS but would have 4d10+8 for 2 extra DoS and 6d10+8 for 4 extra DoS... which is about 41 damage average but armour counts twice... (going up to 68 damage max without fury and 6 dice are likely to get fury on its way)

with basic rules I'ld do 2d10+8 for a ahit and for every 2 extra DoS which are ~19 damage average armour counts twice

having a commoner with about 4 toughness bonus and 3 armour it doesn't matter much he is dead any way... having a big phat named npc with unnatural toughnes(*2) a toughness bonus of 6 and an armour of 8 who would normaly be "immune" to the scatter pistol build it is now very likely to harm him seriously basic rules damage gets caught in the armour (16 armour and then 12 toughness are hard to overcome) and he has a harder time to dodge it too

basically where "basic accurate weapons" would get there aim extra damage but are not compatible with dual shot because it specifically requires pistols you are letting trouble in by a similar effect which is not excluded for dual shot, which is probably not the only "flaw" with these rules

I just think the current scatter rules don't give the correct feel.
They should be these close combat monsters, but with the current rules the shotgun isn't much better than a stub automatic at point blank firing semi-automatic.

So I decided to create some more fitting rules.

So +1d10 extra damage per 2 DoS and a -10 to dodge per 2 DoS to a max of 2d10 extra damage and -20 to dodge.
When firing semi or fully automatic the maximum is -10 to dodge and +1d10 extra damage.

So someone wielding a Vanaheim, firing fully automatic and at point blank range with BS 40 rolling a 39 would hit 6 times for 2d10+4 I and the opponent would have -10 to dodge.

Now the shotgun is scary again...

Note: In the entire game there is just one full auto shotgun and that is a rare Forge World variant...this rule makes combat shotguns worth the thrones.

Santiago said:

This, I'd argue, is the problem. Your compairing a single buckshot blast to being shot three times from an autopistol. Personaly, I'd expect the autopistol to hurt more.

Plus, by adding damage instead of adding extra hits, your greatly increasing the shotguns ability to combat high-toughness and high-armor targets. Even ignoring the dodge penalty, 3d10+ in a single hit is equivilent to an expert sniper shot, or (roughly) a Krak Grenade. That's a lot for a few little pellets moving at relitivly slow speeds.

Also, reguarding the dodge penalty, it makes no sense. The increased damage is repersentitive of more of the shot spread hitting the target, which means the spreads nice and close togeather, which you would think would make it easier to dodge, not harder.

If you want to more accurately get the 'feal' of a shotgun, give it scatter, inaccurate and a general +10 to hit.

shotguns are a close combat monster.... against unarmored targets... the rules use multiple hits for the mechanics which is absolutely fine because unarmored targets will take more damage from more hits.... if you want to rule out any left reality to shotguns just go with whatever you like we won't stop you (maybe flame a little bit) against armoured targets though shotguns aren't very effective against armour because each pellet (or whatever high technology variant you are using in your 40k game) has only a fraction of the kinetic energy that a normal bullet has and modern armour is all about absorbing (and spreading) kinetic energy

let's compare a shell of buckshot to a tiny micro rocket called bolter round

a buckshot does (per rules) 1d10+4 damage with a penetration of 0 scatter

a self propelled microrocket with an armour piercing adamantium tip does (per rules) 1d10+5 pen 4 tearing

a buckshot does spread it's lead but not that much (it's still a directed accelleration) this is why it dosn't get a to hit bonus but it's lead pellets spread once inside the flesh doing a good amount of damage

a micro explosion does a little bit more damage as it enters your body first and then literally explodes doing massive amount of damage inside your body

now in advancement to this they added the scatter rules ontop of it giving you extra hits for extra damage against a low armoured target you do seriously more damage than a bolter could against a high armoured target it simply lacks penetration and force and then bolters have tearing to make them more likely punch it really good

but in your rules standing close to a shotgun is even more deadly weather or not I'm wearing armour and suddenly my finest craftsmanship power armour which is good to protect me from much of the damage a bolter does (about 2/3) is nearly useless against a good roll from a shotgun (about less then 1/2 with a good hit) and not only this... it is harder to dodge, it does only take a half action to fire a shotgun compared to the only other method to achieve such damage peaks namely an accurate basic weapon a.k.a. sniper, on top of that now it is possible with a pistol!

now I don't know about you but a boltgun in my opinion is a combat monster and should be superior to shotguns which is not always given as per rules but you tune the shotguns to a degree that I'ld leave my sword at home to carry a shotgun pistol for close combat (or maybe swiftattacking with the mainhand and a singleshot with the offhand?)

and if you mention "a bolter has tearing" then consider rolling two dice and keeping the best against keeping 2 (or even 3) dice and keeping both (all)

maybe scatter is not the best rule but I think you are overpowering them...

maybe try a different approach let's make scatter something like this: for each extra degree of success you add 1 damage...

I have been fond of using a cone area effect for shotguns when I have shoehorned them in where they didn't belong. You could adapt the flamer rules to be a scatter variant. I could see it being a lot meaner than a flamer up close but drastically reduce the cone length/range.

Perhaps capping it at 1d10/-10 is better, or adding the dodge penalty to the excisting rule...

I think the rules for Scatter are fine as they are. As others have pointed out, there are no realistic reasons as to why a hail of shots should be more deadly at close range than a series of bullets, so there's little merit to the design goal of your house rule.

For what it's worth, Shotguns are still very good at close range shootout according to the rules. Their real strength is in economy of usage - a single shell can devastate a lightly armored target in the way no single bullet can. It's not a good choice against heavily armored targets, but well, it shouldn't be.

problem is it was designed for DH where ammunition and money do matter in RT you can just pack all the bullets you want....

a shotgun is a great thing for maximum effect with a minimum of shells given the right circumstances... without a need for tight ammo calculations the balance is a bit off

Sirion said:

While it's true that you don't need to count money spent on ammo, you still have to count how much ammo you're carrying on person.

Morangias said:

sure? I think you can carry as much as weight allows ... so if you're not the underdeveloped weakling child of your party you should be able to carry enough SP with you that you really don't have any trouble pumping bursts

Rogue Trade Core Book page 273: ~ you can take as much ammo with you as you want (and can reasonable carry).... only if you don'T want to keep track of it you can use the rule of three

so 10 shells for a shot pistol have a weight of 1
4 shells for a shotgun have a weight of 1
16 pump action shotgun shells have a weight of 1

because shells are interchangeable you'll just carry pump action shotgun shells with you at a 16/1 ratio

~86 autogun shells weight 1 (~8.5 full bursts)

72 autopistol bullets weight 1 (12 full bursts)

so you can carry around at least 4 times the SP bullets as you can carry shotgun shells in matter of weight not enough for a 10 round burst but enough that it makes not that much difference to carry a shotgun instead of a sp weapon if you can only have the benefits in point blank but of course if using a pump action shotgun (and only then) or using a glitch to carry pump action shells with your shotgun you can squeeze more shots out of your weight restriction but then the SP calculations are only made for full burst and they have the option to shoot single shots as well

Perhaps more importantly, what PC is going to be specifily selecting a shotgun when everyone gets better weapons as starting equipment, and all but the poorest RT can easily obtain more effective equipment for himself even if he were to lose said starting equipment?

Your right that shotgun doesn't make much sense for the PCs to carry, but I don't think that really matters, it's a weapon for armsmen, scum and other common folk anyway.

Quicksilver said:

With the proper ammunition a shotgun can be just as effective and more versatile than a boltgun, and a lot less conspicuous.

Sirion said:

That's a serious loophole that I'd expect any gm to smack down. Even if they are forgetting this bit from page 135: Ammo weight is not listed; hoever; should it be important to know how much ammunition weighs, consider a weapons's full clip to weight 10% of the weight of the weapon itself.

With my players I use that weight rule as it works a lot better.

ItsUncertainWho said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

Could you give us an example ?

Then you have to consider that the shotgun would only be useful in ranges between 3m and melee. That is a very small range of usefulness, so the shotgun will have to be way better than a boltgun to be worth carrying.

Inferno shells

Blazer shells

Hyper Density Penetraitor shells

Executioner shells

I'm sure I am missing some of the other fun shells.

A Bolter will probably average more damage, especially at long range, but a shotguns still hits and does damage beyond 3m. Shotguns are a good choice when you need flexibility and don't run around in open fields all day. Also, if you find yourself waking down the street with a shotgun in hand the reaction will be much less severe than if you are walking down the street with a Bolter in hand.

Get yourself a Combat Shotgun with a Fire Selector upgrade, load it with standard, inferno, and blazer shells. You know have one weapon that can shoot people with scatter, shoot people and set them on fire, and a multi-shot flame thrower. If you are an Arbiter or very, very well connected, load one clip with executioner shell goodness. You now have a self propelled, targeting, tracking, cover ignoring, better-than-a-bolt-round-could-ever-hope-to-be shell of death.

ItsUncertainWho said:

We are talking about a Rogue Traders and their companions here. How often do they go undercover in places where a boltgun will be suspicious ?

How often will they want to infiltrate a group that hasn't noticed their ship and found out what the captain looks like ?

What about the Rogue Traders other gear (generally the high quality ornate stuff) attracting attention ?

If you were talking about inquisitorial acolytes then the low price of a shotgun makes it useful, even if you ignore the low profile.

As for the special ammos:

- Inferno rounds can be used in "all bolt weapons" so they don't help shotguns.

- I've never heard of blazer rounds. Where can I find their stats ?

- Hyper Density Perpetrators are another round that can fit in bolters.

- Executioner rounds can't be fired on semi or full auto and remove scatter. Unless the enemies have found themselves some really strong cover and are protected from being forced into melee, the increased range and rate of fire of the bolters make them more effective than the single high damage Executioner round.

So that's 2 ammo types that don't give any advantage to shotguns, one I've never heard of and one that will only beat bolters in a specific situation (although one that could plausibly happen a lot). That doesn't make a shotgun more versatile than a boltgun. But if that situation came up a lot then* other weapons have their uses:

- Accurate basic weapons with called shot. As called shot takes a full action they would only fire every other turn. But the full action aim counters the called shot penalty, the accurate quality provides another +10 (countered by half aim on shotgun) and if the range is >15m then the shotgun won't get the close range bonus but the sniper will. That's a potential 3d10+ hit on the exposed part of the target.

- Grenades can be lobbed behind the cover.

So I still don't see how a shotgun is a worthwhile weapon for a RT party to carry.

*Along with people asking the gm for more variation in combats.

"[Executioner shell] You now have a self propelled, targeting, tracking, cover ignoring, better-than-a-bolt-round-could-ever-hope-to-be shell of death."

Executioner Bolts also exist. They're primaraly used by the Inquasition who can afford such high priced upgrades for a basic weapon. I assume the reason the Arbeties us a Shotgun version is because they arn't issued boltguns standard. I remember this coming up in a few discussions about computer and tech level in 40k. I actualy didn't know they were avaliable as shotgun shells.

In modern times, the main reason why they are used by police departments stems not from their power but from their utility. With buckshot a shotgun can be fired effectivly without much aim. Good for when you need to hit a fast moving target or one that would otherwise appear for to short to get a clear pistol shot off at. The other use is with a solid slug. In this case, the shotguns heavier propelent charge makes it useful for blowing open locks.

Considered logicaly, a shotgun shot should never be more effective then a bolter round. Both are smooth bore weapons and contain no special 'damage increasers' in the weapon itself, everything is in the rounds used. Bolter round are nearly twice the dimentions of even the largest of their shotgun cosins, it stands to reason that anything a shotgun shell could do, a larger bolt round would exist for.

Executioner bolt rounds are not mentioned in the entry in the RH, that I recall. As for other fluff, I have never read mention of them anywhere but for Arbities shotguns. Where is the bolt round from?

Come to think of it, I don't think there are basic solid slug shells listed in any of the books. We might need to come up with something.

As I said, they came up in a couple other discussions I've gotten into on 40K boards. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of eather.

Your right that there are no solid slug rounds listed. Though you could just use the man-stoppers from the RT book to repersent them easily enough.

*edit1* Perhaps I should have read the second page so I don't just repeat arguments made by others.

*edit2* Allright, having read the second page I'd like to add that the blazer shell is like a primitive hand flamer with less penetration. Oh, and they only work on single shot.

Blazer shells can be found in IH p 164.

ItsUncertainWho said:

What's so special about these that they would make me consider a shotgun over a boltgun ?

- Since they have the flame quality you don't make a BS test to fire them. No BS test means you don't get any degrees of success to trigger scatter.

- Primitive damage means that armour will be a problem.

How often do Dark Heresy characters use them ?

Quicksilver said:

Could we try to keep it to ammo that has been stated up in the RAW ?

At this point I'm trying to see how far can get without bringing up the special bolter only ammos.

Special rounds this and special rounds that. The point is that scatter is a joke, sure shotguns can be a viable alternative if you put special rounds in it so it's not a shotgun anymore.

Scatter works between point bland and melee and in that one area where it ought to be great it's not that scary. Get an autopistol and you're pretty much set for anything the shotgun could handle, plus some additional bits at long and extreme range. In dark heresy there's a combat shotgun that does semi auto, and it's still dominated by the same autopistol unless you get 8 dos or above.

The shotgun isn't an alternative to the bolter and shouldn't be. Compare bolter to plasma and other high end weapons. But since the shotgun is equally dominated by an autopistol there's still a problem.