1 hour ago, Vondy said:

Nice to know, though I would have preferred we be told that in 1-2 lines of dialogue in the movies. The expectation / requirement that viewers read a book or comic to have the most basic facts is not one that pleases me. That said, I would point out that Leia's "Resistance" appeared very well-established when we meet them in TFA so its reasonable to assume she had been preparing for an insurgency against the First Order well before they made significant inroads against the New Republic. That said, the the FO never completed their campaign of conquest and never got their big fleet out to cow the galaxy so the point remains that there were likely a goodly number of words who were still free and prosperous when the credits rolled on Episode XIII.

Very true, but many of them capitulated to the First Order out of fear.

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

Nice to know, though I would have preferred we be told that in 1-2 lines of dialogue in the movies.

Well, there’s the first third of TLJ’s opening crawl: “The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

2 hours ago, Vondy said:

... so the point remains that there were likely a goodly number of words who were still free and prosperous when the credits rolled on Episode XIII.

Do you mean Episode IX?

(Roman numerals can be tricky.)

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Given that it took the Rebellion to reorganize into a working government within a year or so... I'd say it wouldn't take the Resistance to take much longer, if any.

Mind you, I'm not really keeping up with the post Jedi Neo-Canon, so I cant comment on the modern era. Things might be different now but. . . .

There's a difference between saying that you're an all new government and actually being one. As I seem to recall, Mon Mothra signed the paperwork and established the New Republic right around the Bakura incident. The rest of the galaxy said "That's nice" and went about their business. It wasn't until Wedge opened the door to take Courscant that the Republic was taken seriously as a legitimate power - and that was, what three years after Endor?

So yes, you could in theory establish a government pretty quickly, but getting to a point where you can pave the roads, send the social security checks and open a new DMV branch on Bespin - that's going to take a bit more time.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

So, yeah, the First Order had already begun their campaign of galactic conquest almost immediately after the battle of Starkiller Base.

And here's where I wish we had some hard data (or even just a rough estimate) on the size of the First Order. The best we have to go by is Moff Richard E Grant going "Palpatine's fleet will increase our number 10 fold" (or something like that). The Empire had 25,000-ish star destroyers, and that was with the full might and resources of the Empire churning out ships over decades. One teeny-tiny planet will be able to produce - what, maybe a couple thousand. So even if we take Moff Grant's 10 Fold line in the same vein as a "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" generality (and not actually being able to consume an equine), giving them 500-ish ships sounds right in line with that. Throw in a few more for the old Imperial ships that defected.

Still an impressive fleet, more than enough to put some hurting on the Galaxy, but still way underpowered.

(Of course this is assuming that JJ would sit down and crunch numbers like this, which I really, really doubt he did.)

***EDIT***

Unless Moff Grant was considering the planet killer guns as "Holy crap, that will surely even the odds in our favor" and not doing the math as X Units + Y Units = 10 Fold!

4 hours ago, Desslok said:

Mon Mothra

My mental image of this is great.

Sorrynotsorry.

I think the galaxy will fragment into a number of small states instead of one huge state. Worlds and sectors will have different ideas on the appropriate courses of action after the war with states forming based on agreement about future actions. I also see lots of proxy wars in regions with divided opinions, and probably lots of covert ops disguised as mercenary or pirate fleets but no galaxy spanning conflicts for a while. I just don't see anyone in the Resistance who can tie most of the galaxy back into a superstate.

I think that if the galaxy is going to have realistic politics, it's not really going to be Star Wars anymore. We're going to get some variation of a New New Republic, and eventually a new Empire/Sith kind of thing. With the Hutts off to the side doing their own thing.

Like it has been for the last 5000 years and probably a good deal longer.

1 hour ago, RogueCorona said:

I think the galaxy will fragment into a number of small states instead of one huge state. Worlds and sectors will have different ideas on the appropriate courses of action after the war with states forming based on agreement about future actions. I also see lots of proxy wars in regions with divided opinions, and probably lots of covert ops disguised as mercenary or pirate fleets but no galaxy spanning conflicts for a while. I just don't see anyone in the Resistance who can tie most of the galaxy back into a superstate.

It will be like city states in history. They might eventually grow back into an over arching government....

11 hours ago, Desslok said:

***EDIT***

Unless Moff Grant was considering the planet killer guns as "Holy crap, that will surely even the odds in our favor" and not doing the math as X Units + Y Units = 10 Fold!

It was "Ten thousand-fold" or something else ludicrously large. IIRC, in Resistance season 1 they give the impression that the FOs fleet is bigger than any other in the galaxy, but still not the size of the old Imperial Navy.

3 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

I think that if the galaxy is going to have realistic politics, it's not really going to be Star Wars anymore.

I'm not necessarily looking to get into real world politics (other than potentially informing where we might go with the universe as it stands), just extrapolating where we go from here based on the data we have. Besides, if I want Republic vs Empire vs Jedi vs Sith, like you said - we've got 5,000 years of that to play with. I'm way more excited about a clean slate and a more chaotic time (until Disney comes along and codifies something).

1 hour ago, Talkie Toaster said:

It was "Ten thousand-fold" or something else ludicrously large

Okay, sounds like we have to take Moff Grant's statement with a grain of salt then - a clear case of Writers Have No Sense of Scale.

On 1/13/2020 at 3:54 PM, Daeglan said:

Even if Moff Richard Grant through all in with Sheev moving all those troops would take time so when the head is cut off it leaves a bunch of troops in the lurch and ready for anyone strong enough and of the right persuasion.

Time for Thrawns return from the unknown regions! 😉

24 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Okay, sounds like we have to take Moff Grant's statement with a grain of salt then - a clear case of Writers Have No Sense of Scale.

iirc it was just a thousand times, which would leave the First Order with about 2000 Star Destroyers and that fits with other sources as far as I know.

6 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

that fits with other sources as far as I know.

Citation needed!

And no, that's not me calling you a lier or anything. Just that my searching of the usual suspects - your wookiepeedias and the like - are all frustratingly coming up with vague non-answers.

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Im confused how I said something I didnt say

Was a typo anyway. I meant 200. There is count of first order ships at the end of some EA game, right before star killer fires. And it still needs the assumption that those Sith star destroyers count as 10 of the first order ones.

I was pleasantly surprised that TRoS didn’t require any major retconning of galactic (future) history in my Raiders of the Lost Jedi campaign. But then, that’s part of why I set it approximately 250 years after the movies; it allowed a lot of wiggle room to not step on canon and it not step on me.

But, in light of this thread, it has given me the opportunity to flesh out that future history in greater detail, rather than the broad strokes that I gave it, those broad strokes being a detente between the Galactic Alliance (overseeing roughly half the Galaxy) and the New Empire (controlling about a quarter). The way I see the newly-gelled details, rather than the New Republic coming back on the scene, smaller alliances formed, establishing their own control over parts of the Galaxy. One of those factions was yet another would-be Empire, less wedded to the extremes of the regime, but more convinced that the firmer control of the Empire was more beneficial. Without Palpatine’s influence, they’re not outright evil, but prefer a stricter, martial form of government. Seeing a potential threat in yet another Empire, though, many of the smaller groups band together as the Galactic Alliance, closet to a United Nations than a centralized government, but with some powers and responsibilities over the entire member systems. The GA and NE reach a tenuous “you don’t mess with us, we won’t mess with you” accord.

In this structure, the Jedi operate primarily within the GA, but are not tied to the bureaucracy of the government. Meanwhile, the NE has formed the Imperial Knights (blatantly stolen from the old Legacy comic series), trained force users who don’t subscribe to a semi-religious dogma.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Im confused how I said something I didnt say

I bet I quoted someone you quoted and the forum software derped.

What I want to know is where are the shipyards that are turning out all of these Star destroyers? I mean the original ones were made in Kuat... But is that where the new ones are made? and if so how did the Republic not notice all this build up?

36 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Okay, sounds like we have to take Moff Grant's statement with a grain of salt then

That's pretty much how I took the statement, as the character using hyperbole to make an in-universe statement of just how unstoppable the First Order would be with the addition of the Sith Fleet.

So not so much writers have a lack of the sense of scale, but instead the character (later revealed to be a Palpatine loyalist) grossly exaggerating to make a point to the other officers were skeptical about the offer and especially its source.

Of course, each Sith destroyer had a planet killer, giving each such vessel vastly more raw firepower than a First Order destroyer, so adding a fleet of ships that could each literally wipe out an entire planet in a single blast may have not been that much of an exaggeration.

As for how galactic affairs in the wake of Episode 9 are going to shake out...

I would imagine they might follow a similar track to Galactic Alliance in the wake of the Vong War, though not quite as quickly. You're probably looking at anywhere to 5 to 10 years during which various powers/interests begin to consolidate into larger blocks of mutual self-interest and/or ideological similarities. There will undoubtedly be warlords of various types, from old-guard Imperials looking for a chance at recapturing lost glories to probably even New Republic leaders who survived the Hosnian Prime explosion and see a prime opportunity to carve out their own personal domain for a bevy of reasons, ranging from idealistic and good-intended to being just as corrupt and cruel as many of the Imperial warlords were in Legends in the years between Endor and Thrawn showing up. The Hutts will undoubtedly secure their control of Hutt Space, and the Corporate Sector Authority will certainly do the same for their neck of the galaxy, as well as expanding their region of influence/control as much as they think they can get away with.

It's also a matter of just how much of the First Order's resources got wiped out after Exegol. If it's a case of the FO putting all their eggs into Palpatine's basket and thus getting wiped out, then things may not be quite so chaotic as you no longer have a large bloc of Imperial-themed warmongers running rampant.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Lando wind up being elected the president/chancellor/prime minister of a restored New Republic, which unlike the Republic prior to the Empire wasn't legally disbanded, but could well have become a government-in-exile after Hosnian Prime. Which in turn might explain why nobody came to the Resistance's aid at Crait; those remnants were far too busy picking up the pieces and trying to sort out "next moves" to be able to do anything in time to help Leia and her group, as there's not much use sending reinforcements to help someone that's almost certainly going to be dead by the time said reinforcements would arrive.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What I want to know is where are the shipyards that are turning out all of these Star destroyers? I mean the original ones were made in Kuat... But is that where the new ones are made? and if so how did the Republic not notice all this build up?

Going by non-screen sources, a variety of worlds were quietly finding the FO, and openly seceded from the New Republic a few years before TFA. On top of any planetary ship yards they may have used, Snoke’s ship had ship yard and walker production facilities aboard.

There will be no navies...just people.

There will be no governments...just people.

There will be no syndicates...just people.

There will be no great heroes...just people.

It will be an anarchist's dream space of non-heirarchical cooperation and benevolent interdependence.

And then the Yuuzhan Vong will come and wipe them all out!!!

My thoughts kinda sifting through all this ...

(I'm not gonna touch critiquing the films. that's a boringass conversation that makes me skip threads because "here we go with this crap again, let's hear the same religious fervor we've already heard a thousand times.")

• THE holonet proper is gone. But the holonet was really just the communications streams. A successor would eventually crop up, though pirate radio would be the first to occur (as players recoup their losses).
• That rogue Sith Order star destroyer is 100% campaign bait. That legion following Papa Palpatine may have been fanatical, but they definitely showed cunning.
  • Saying that, they'd probably realize they had 2 options only: blow up another planet and get hunted down -or- go into hiding.
  • They may have had the gun, but their manufacturing yards were all on Hexagon (along with the blue prints). And their entire army (at this point) is everyone on board and any FO troops they might be able to discretely distress call
  • So ... this is probably more Age of Rebellion style campaign. The heroes trying to track down the last remnants and sweep up the ashes. With the planets now taking ownership with developing their own forces, it won't be a repeat of the fall of the Empire.
• Oh yeah, it's very likely that there isn't a centralized military in the galaxy. The remaining New Republic forces will serve as their own guards, but I'm guessing most planets are going to take a more active role in defending their own interests (much like how everyone showed up at the end).
• And yeah, ideal time for Edge campaigns to flourish.
• This is also a fantastic era for Force and Destiny. Without FO and Imps, it's likely any surviving Jedi-in-hiding will begin to come out. This could result in proper dungeon-delving, individual darkside threats (though they wouldn't have access to the Sith-lineage-power-transfer that made said cult so dangerous), and other fun romps.

16 hours ago, Desslok said:

Mind you, I'm not really keeping up with the post Jedi Neo-Canon, so I cant comment on the modern era. Things might be different now but. . . .

There's a difference between saying that you're an all new government and actually being one. As I seem to recall, Mon Mothra signed the paperwork and established the New Republic right around the Bakura incident. The rest of the galaxy said "That's nice" and went about their business. It wasn't until Wedge opened the door to take Courscant that the Republic was taken seriously as a legitimate power - and that was, what three years after Endor?

So yes, you could in theory establish a government pretty quickly, but getting to a point where you can pave the roads, send the social security checks and open a new DMV branch on Bespin - that's going to take a bit more time.

And here's where I wish we had some hard data (or even just a rough estimate) on the size of the First Order. The best we have to go by is Moff Richard E Grant going "Palpatine's fleet will increase our number 10 fold" (or something like that). The Empire had 25,000-ish star destroyers, and that was with the full might and resources of the Empire churning out ships over decades. One teeny-tiny planet will be able to produce - what, maybe a couple thousand. So even if we take Moff Grant's 10 Fold line in the same vein as a "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" generality (and not actually being able to consume an equine), giving them 500-ish ships sounds right in line with that. Throw in a few more for the old Imperial ships that defected.

Still an impressive fleet, more than enough to put some hurting on the Galaxy, but still way underpowered.

(Of course this is assuming that JJ would sit down and crunch numbers like this, which I really, really doubt he did.)

***EDIT***

Unless Moff Grant was considering the planet killer guns as "Holy crap, that will surely even the odds in our favor" and not doing the math as X Units + Y Units = 10 Fold!

That was under the old canon. Under the new canon, the New Republic took charge almost immediately after the Empire's defeat at the Battle of Endor.

8 minutes ago, thinkbomb said:

My thoughts kinda sifting through all this ...

(I'm not gonna touch critiquing the films. that's a boringass conversation that makes me skip threads because "here we go with this crap again, let's hear the same religious fervor we've already heard a thousand times.")

• THE holonet proper is gone. But the holonet was really just the communications streams. A successor would eventually crop up, though pirate radio would be the first to occur (as players recoup their losses).
• That rogue Sith Order star destroyer is 100% campaign bait. That legion following Papa Palpatine may have been fanatical, but they definitely showed cunning.
  • Saying that, they'd probably realize they had 2 options only: blow up another planet and get hunted down -or- go into hiding.
  • They may have had the gun, but their manufacturing yards were all on Hexagon (along with the blue prints). And their entire army (at this point) is everyone on board and any FO troops they might be able to discretely distress call
  • So ... this is probably more Age of Rebellion style campaign. The heroes trying to track down the last remnants and sweep up the ashes. With the planets now taking ownership with developing their own forces, it won't be a repeat of the fall of the Empire.
• Oh yeah, it's very likely that there isn't a centralized military in the galaxy. The remaining New Republic forces will serve as their own guards, but I'm guessing most planets are going to take a more active role in defending their own interests (much like how everyone showed up at the end).
• And yeah, ideal time for Edge campaigns to flourish.
• This is also a fantastic era for Force and Destiny. Without FO and Imps, it's likely any surviving Jedi-in-hiding will begin to come out. This could result in proper dungeon-delving, individual darkside threats (though they wouldn't have access to the Sith-lineage-power-transfer that made said cult so dangerous), and other fun romps.

Why would the Holonet be gone? it is not just communications streams. and nothing that happened in the movies would have shut it down. It was locked down by the empire. and it is not a centralized thing.

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Was a typo anyway. I meant 200. There is count of first order ships at the end of some EA game, right before star killer fires. And it still needs the assumption that those Sith star destroyers count as 10 of the first order ones.

I rechecked the cutscene and I think I remembered not correctly. 12:09