I feel like I should kill my players from a cave in, they were warned repeatly that the cave was filled with high explosive material and kept fighting in it. They got some debris down to slow it down some but it was in an area with a lot of explosive and in a cave. But killing 3 of the 4 players will definitely ruin the game.

So I'm debating on how to handle it. Leaning towards critical injury rolls with a very high base to start with like +70 or so. Or maybe making very hard resilence checks to gibmve them a chance to survive.

What would you do in your game?

Handle it as a fall damage. Daunting coordination, athletics checks to reduce damage. You don't have to kill them. Incapacitated characters regain conciousness after a time, give them a critical per raw for going over wound threshold then restore them on threshold after some indefinite time.

Plenty of examples throughout different media, hero vanishes in a collapse, then next scene he digs out himself from the rubble.

Remember, death is only death when you roll 150+. Anything else can be saved by plot.

Depends. What is the context? Heroes have often fought in environments that are considered hazardous, so especially if they are new to the system and are used to fighting monsters to the death, the idea of retreating might seem alien to them.

my idea is to force a scene change, explosions start to go off, smaller, progressively larger; even the bad guys have dropped their guns are bucketting it. It’s now a skill challenge, change the scene from combat to a narrative chase through these crumbling whatever’s, where you have to roll 5 successful checks before 3 failures. Who wants to head up this group check? Athletics? Nice! Give me a hard athletics check... No, if you stop to loot now you are going to die. Think Indiana Jones and the crystal, do you really want to be an extra in that finale?

i would probably recommend Matt covills video on skill challenges as Star Wars is clock full of excited chase scenes. As long as the players can suggest how their skills would be useful in this environment then they can roll for it. Machanics to cause a cave in to block the path behind? Stealing a hoverslead requires a skullduggery check, then a piloting check e.ct any successful checks should get them one step closer to salvation. Threats should make things harder, despair can be as simple as upgrades, mean as crits.

they finally roll 3 failed checks? That’s when you hit them with death, a severe critical injury or cave in. 5 successful checks? They make it to safety, diving into the ship and firing up the engines as the asteroid likely implodes around them.

a bit rail roady? Maybe but I don’t think abrupt scene changes when it makes sense is to anyone’s detriment, some of the best parts of Star Wars is the chase scenes and sometimes that is the responsibility of the GM to turn an dangerous situation into something exciting. I can grantees that if you switch from one situation to another, it will be memorable.

Instead of killing the PCs outright with massive damage and crits, inhibit their actions with qualities. Blast or Burn, from the ordnance; Concussive, Disorient, Ensnared, Knockdown might turn a combat into a desperate rescue/escape scene; items could be Sundered in the collapse.

After the explosion I cut the scene to the one player who was not in the cave. He finished doing house keeping to make sure his location stayed safe. Then he took a group of slave they rescued down the tunnel that was filled with dust after the explosion. When he got to the where the group was in the cave in already happened and the dust limited his disability so he use sense, but only had short range and didn't find any life signs. Then we ended the session

So I could have them be alive but further in the tunnel.

They are experienced players they have played they system for at least a year.

Kill one just to make a point, and the others can roll for critical injuries. Of course, if no one is there to dig them out, then they may all die regardless. Don't worry about this ruining the game; in many cases if they fail to see the consequences of their own stupidity, the game will die a slow lingering death. Far better to amputate a limb quickly and cleanly so the others can have a chance to do better.

3 hours ago, damnkid3 said:

When he got to the where the group was in the cave in already happened and the dust limited his disability so he use sense, but only had short range and didn't find any life signs. Then we ended the session

So I could have them be alive but further in the tunnel.

They are experienced players they have played they system for at least a year.

Well, I would go with the critical injury checks with death on the line. Your approach of 70+ seems fair, they took the risk knowing possible consequences, so...
I would also determine, whether or not their characters are isolated from each other and or covered by debris. If they are together or in a part of the cave that still stands they could maybe save someone from a near death roll.

Most importantly I would also think about the rescue effort of the left over PC. In that position his performance might be the most important factor. How well he can organize the rescue op might influence the other PCs fates.

Wreck them, wreck their stuff, hit them with recovery time and costs.

I know easier said then done, I am too nice as a GM for this stuff

10 hours ago, LordBritish said:

my idea is to force a scene change, explosions start to go off, smaller, progressively larger; even the bad guys have dropped their guns are bucketing it. It’s now a skill challenge,

I like this idea a lot. It is cinematic. I would alter it a bit, though. First of all, realize that "Formidable" (5 Diff) is STILL a 17.4% for a success with only 2 Green dice. "Daunting (4 Diff) is 23.8%. Throwing purple dice at 'em isn't so bad. Second, add in some Red dice. I would like to saddle them with Criticals on each Despair and 10 damage on each failed roll, perhaps. This is just a degree less from being on the Death Star when it exploded.

Two ways to go with this. One, have the players make rolls against increasing difficulties. Two, bad environmental events are usually a set YYGG (or something) that already hits everyone. Triumphs can be criticals, as usual. Each hit does 10 damage + successes. I usually like letting the players roll. It's in their hands. Perhaps someone defiantly makes all the rolls? The story of legends!!!

10 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Handle it as a fall damage. Daunting coordination, athletics checks to reduce damage. You don't have to kill them. Incapacitated characters regain consciousness after a time, give them a critical per raw for going over wound threshold then restore them on threshold after some indefinite time.

Plenty of examples throughout different media, hero vanishes in a collapse, then next scene he digs out himself from the rubble.

Remember, death is only death when you roll 150+. Anything else can be saved by plot.

Agreed. Fall Damage. Again, with plenty of Red thrown in there. I sort of like multiple rolls with good chances for many criticals/Despairs. You can only treat one a week, I believe, so it will be long-lasting. Coord and Ath are good. A particularly nimble person could possibly avoid damage better. Maybe add in Survival AND Resilience checks to survive a hostile environment over the next days as they are dug out. Survival: identify safe food and water. Resilience: malnutrition, dehydration, suffocation, exposure to environment. Cold? Heat? Lack of Air? Again, with some Reds in there. By the end, PC's are being tested in Agility, Cunning, Brawn, etc... A good, well-balanced challenge.

Only by making ALL of the above Ath/Coord checks does someone escape (Remember, even YYG vs RRPPP is STILL 27.7% success. Don't be afraid to heap on Setbacks!). A "Hard" check? Buwhahahaha.... don't be so easy one them!

I don't entirely agree with the above. If one is just arbitrarily gonna kill them, just do it and don't mess around with multiple 27% checks. We've had several situation in our 5 year long campaign where people have just gone and died and well, our GM made it very clear to us that was the case. One guy died from a on the edge crit because he had his throat cut by Mara Jade (literally was unlucky to run into her alone. Her dagger was poisoned and he got staggered for two turns, despite being the medic he was completely incapable of saving himself.) another decided to read the writing on the wall when surrounded by imperials and cut the cables to the lift sending him plunging into darkness. Another guy was sealed within a bardium powered reactor that used the immense energy to produce the map of the galaxy on Ryloth, that player defeated several royal guard against incredible odds and, because of a betrayal by an imperial moff's son whom was bombing the stuffing out this reactor, Gand decided to make the ultimate sacrifice by forcing a build up of the explosive stuff on the roof of the chamber, effective redirecting the massive explosion skywards instead of cracking the planet open and enacting an extinction level event on Ryloth. That latter most thing finally earnt Gand his name, ironically that was the only heroic sacrifice that anyone in the squad had ever survived; but that is the story for another day!

These were epic moments because our GM didn't mess around and let us know if our character deaths were imminent rather then having us waste time by trying to figure out a way to save them in a futile manner. Making players roll a long series of effectively impossible checks is basically just a waste of everyone's time. Honestly, either give them a chance relative to their skill levels or just don't bother.

Besides, out of my original team, three died, two retired and only one member of the party exists of that original smuggling band so long ago. It really provides a sense of history to watch the cast change over time.

On 1/11/2020 at 11:21 PM, damnkid3 said:

I feel like I should kill my players[...]

Careful. That sort of thing is considered murder. However, killing their characters is perfectly legal.

7 hours ago, kaosoe said:

However, killing their characters is perfectly legal.

And should be encouraged! There are too many different character options available to stick with just one group of characters. Killing off the party encourages you players to explore new avenues (either within these game lines, or in another)!

I am of a somewhat different mind about killing player characters. Death should always be a possibility to maintain tension (and common sense because otherwise players will make abjectly stupid decisions), but it shouldn't necessarily come easy or often. It really depends on your group and their playstyle.

Some players invest a lot in their characters and killing them off in a random-ish fashion, or because you are bored with them, is a great way to put people off. Its also pretty cavalier. The legendary abusive killer GM of ages past is one of the reasons the hobby has made moves towards greater player agency.

If a GM is bored or wants to change things up (or really doesn't like a character for some reason) they should discuss that with the players and decide how to attain a mutually acceptable outcome. It doesn't require killing characters off in unsatisfying ways or using Palpatine as your role model.

Often players are willing to rotate characters or campaigns, or to even just take a break from a beloved character they love playing for a time. And, I've had players who wanted their characters to go out in a crowning moment of awesome and stellar blaze of glory. I do let the dice fall as they may most of the time, but I never actively set out to kill a PC.

18 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I am of a somewhat different mind about killing player characters. Death should always be a possibility to maintain tension (and common sense because otherwise players will make abjectly stupid decisions), but it shouldn't necessarily come easy or often. It really depends on your group and their playstyle.

Some players invest a lot in their characters and killing them off in a random-ish fashion, or because you are bored with them, is a great way to put people off. Its also pretty cavalier. The legendary abusive killer GM of ages past is one of the reasons the hobby has made moves towards greater player agency.

If a GM is bored or wants to change things up (or really doesn't like a character for some reason) they should discuss that with the players and decide how to attain a mutually acceptable outcome. It doesn't require killing characters off in unsatisfying ways or using Palpatine as your role model.

Often players are willing to rotate characters or campaigns, or to even just take a break from a beloved character they love playing for a time. And, I've had players who wanted their characters to go out in a crowning moment of awesome and stellar blaze of glory. I do let the dice fall as they may most of the time, but I never actively set out to kill a PC.

And sometimes a character might get what they want and no longer feel the need to go adventuring. I love a happy ending. (unfortunately, most of the characters in my campaigns are Mandos, so happy endings are unlikely. )

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

And sometimes a character might get what they want and no longer feel the need to go adventuring. I love a happy ending. (unfortunately, most of the characters in my campaigns are Mandos, so happy endings are unlikely. )

Today IS a glorious day to die!

2 hours ago, Vondy said:

Today IS a glorious day to die!

More like today is a glorious day to make the other guy die. 😈

Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur = Today is a good day for someone else to die - Mando saying.

21 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur = Today is a good day for someone else to die - Mando saying.

Or, RAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!! in Wookie.

10 hours ago, Vondy said:

The legendary abusive killer GM of ages past is one of the reasons the hobby has made moves towards greater player agency.

Player agency is an illusion.

I've got mixed feelings about this.

You CAN survive cave ins. People do occasionally, but survivors generally need to keep quiet, have access to air (be close to the surface) and get dug out within 24 hours. (Maybe 48 hours)?

But on the other hand sometimes as a GM you need to teach players that absurd levels of absurdity are a no-go.

If a character's survival is implausible then let them die. Maybe the players will learn a lesson.

Sometimes they won't.

On 1/14/2020 at 11:04 PM, HappyDaze said:

Player agency is an illusion.

Thank you Captain Contrarian. Very helpful. 🙄

*golf clap*

56 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Thank you Captain Contrarian. Very helpful. 🙄

*golf clap*

I always aim to displease.

I am reminded of a bitter tale from yore . . .

I was GM'ing in the "Sucktastics" Worlds RPG* running a Pirates of the Spanish Main era campaign with the PC's running about the Caribbean as new entrants to the world of Piracy. (Level 1 newbs).

The PC's had hired on with the most vile notorious Bad Apple out of Tortuga and friction started boiling up. The PC's had had enough and staged the inevitable Mutiny! (Yay)!

And then they failed! (Oh no)!

Most of the PC's were downed and unconscious with the rest captured. The Pirate Captain had decided to Maroon the mutineers. But one intrepid young lass had actually gotten close enough to the Captain to shoot him in the back! A crime most foul! Unforgivable? Not necessarily, but the Captain wanted to make it clear that he didn't approve of being shot an in the future. Examples needed to be made.

So I set the stage. The ship was fleeing from a wrecked Spanish Pirate Hunter that the group had just sunk and the wreckage was on fire with a dark plume of smoke still visible on the horizon. The seas were heavy with the winds blowing at 30+ knots from the east with the wind blowing in ominous dark clouds. Ship speed was a very brisk 14 knots.

With that cheery setting the Vile! Evil! Pirate Captain decreed that the young back stabbing (shooting)? girl be keel hauled for her bitter treachery!

(For those of you unfamiliar; Keel hauling is the practice of tying four ropes to the convict one at each wrist and one at each ankle. The convict is then dropped off the bow of the ship head first while being held in place by four crew [one on each rope] to keep the convict from being lost. Then the four crew scrape the convict along the keel of the ship. As scary as that is, the worst bit are the barnacles . . .)

And as a pique of torture the captain decides to have the conscious mutineers to man the lines for the convict! (Talk about rubbing salt in the wound, but this was the most Vile! and Evil! Pirate currently sailing the Main).

Just as the girl (yep one of the PC's) is dropped off the bow, by crew loyal to the Vile! Evil! Captain, one of the mutineers drops the rope he is manning and starts attacking the crew (9:1 odds against) and he starts trying to attack the other crew (loyalists) who were holding the lass to the ship!

Another PC (who was running another unconscious PC at the time) played a narrative alteration card and had another rope break! Only two ropes left keeping this convict attached to the ship leaving the two remaining crew straining to hold onto the lass!

The loyal crew then fought vigorously to SAVE the wee young lass from her fellow mutineer, with the remaining two pirates manning her lines were working vigorously to get her to the aft of the ship ASAP.

The Crazed . . . PC, pissed that the crew was obstructing his rampage, then fled into the rigging, cut a line, and dove off the side of the ship. With great difficulty he attempted to catch one of the lines holding our wee lass to the ship! Failure, but that's what those bene's are for. (Flip for success).

Okay, Crazed PC is being dragged along the bottom of the ship too but isn't TIED to the ship. Give me an arduous skill roll to keep your weapon (fail but reversed with a bene) and HOLD ONTO the rope as this ship was making 14 knots in heavy seas! (We're talking about the low speeds of water skiers here now). I had also calculated that the SHIP was moving its entire length in 1 'turn.' So another arduous skill roll to not be swept aside and to hold the rope. Unsurprisingly another failure but that's what the bene's are for right?

Then the idiot cut a third line holding him and the wee lass to the ship . . .

The last crew, holding them to the ship was a minor minion level NPC and after suffering rope burns to keep the convicts to the ship, he loses his grip and the two are washed astern . . .

"I don't know how else to put this but your PC's are going to die."

Before I could restate the obvious; You're bobbing in three foot seas, with an inbound thunderstorm looming, in mako shark infested Caribbean waters, (while you're both bleeding), and further you're at the bottom leg of the Bermuda Triangle . . . AND IF you actually make the requisite arduous skill rolls to swim back to the Spanish Pirate hunters, those survivors (in their long boat) will shoot you dead in the water.

Yes before we could restate the obvious, that player rage quit and stormed off literally screaming uncontrollably.

That's pretty much as bad as it can get.

As an after action note, I don't GM for them anymore because I'm a "vile evil GM" and that's okay because I consider them to be a bunch of ignorant morons (in this case). On the plus side, I've found two other RPG groups that are working much much better and we're all having a tremendous amount of fun. (It DOES help if a player pauses when the GM asks, "Are you sure about that? Let's clarify what you're trying to do!").

I'm still hanging out with the original group and though this RPG session is still a sensitive subject (We STILL can't talk about this session ) I have learned via third parties that part of this issue is that the PLAYERS think that I as the GM was torturing THEM, where as I was trying to demonstrate to the PC's that the Captain was a Vile! Evil! and contemptible villain. I was trying to set the Evil! Vile! Captain up to be a BBEG for the campaign subsequent to the failure of the PC's mutiny.

That said, sometime PC's just do stupid things that get themselves killed. I know plenty of MY PC's have dies of stupidity!

* Savage Worlds is a 'simple' RPG where everyone starts off as incompetent and if you survive long enough everyone becomes capable of doing everything. It uses the standard polyhedral dice but if you like FFG Star Wars for it's simplicity, this might be a rule set that you'll want to check out. I personally hate their magic system. And each campaign uses the same magic system no matter the setting so . . . Weird War II is a thing. Thankfully the SW Pirates drops their magic system and replaces it with a cool looking fencing combat model. If anything I wish we'd gotten far enough along to give those rules a good test run.

5 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

I am reminded of a bitter tale from yore . . .

Beautiful story dude.

Clear case of idiot PCs making stoopid choices.

15 hours ago, Stethemessiah said:

Beautiful story dude.

Clear case of idiot PCs making stoopid choices.

Or players used to GMs savings their butt whatever they do and never letting them die.

@Mark Caliber if you can read french you might be interested with Pavillon Noir 2. It's an RPG made to play Pirates in the golden age of piracy in early 18th century. But the author expanded it to play filibuster, pirates and corsair from 16th century to 1815. It's the most complete compilation in french about pirates and filibusters in the caribean. And it's supplement l'Art de l'Escrime is the best work on how to simulate fencing in an RPG I've seen.