When talking about the TIE/ba Pilot "Holo," what does it mean when discussing "your tokens"? Obviously, any focus, evade, stress, etc. tokens are yours... but what about locks?

1. "Your lock" refers to a lock that an enemy ship has placed upon Holo. By moving that, Holo can throw off an enemy's focus-fire planning, or disrupt an ordnance strike by putting the target at the wrong range.
2. "Your lock" refers to a lock that Holo has, on an enemy ship. With this interpretation, Holo can burn in, acquire a lock, then shift that acquired lock to a different friendly ship, ready to unload some ordnance upon an unsuspecting target.
3. (suggested by @Ysenhal ) "Your lock" refers to BOTH locks on Holo, and locks that Holo has on enemy ships. Therefore, Holo can move either one: a lock token an enemy ship has on Holo, OR a lock that Holo has, on an enemy ship.

I'm leaning towards the first interpretation, mainly because lock tokens aren't paired anymore like in first edition)... but the second concept does at least sound plausible.

For reference, the rules on locks (p13 of the RR):

Quote

LOCK
Ships can lock to use their computer to acquire targeting data on environmental hazards or other ships. When a ship performs a [Lock] action, it acquires a lock. A locking ship is a ship that is attempting to acquire a lock by performing the following steps:

1. Measure range from the locking ship to any number of objects.
2. Choose another object at range 0–3.
3. Assign a lock token to it with the number matching the ID marker of the locking ship.

An object is locked while it has at least one lock token assigned to it. Lock tokens are red tokens. While a ship has another ship locked, it follows this rule:

• During the Modify Attack Dice step of a ship’s attack, it can spend a lock token that it has on the defender to reroll one or more of its attack dice.

Additionally:

• When a ship is instructed to break a lock it has, the lock token corresponding to its ID token is removed.
• While acquiring a lock, it fails only if there is no valid object to choose.
• A ship cannot acquire or have a lock on itself.
• An object can be locked by more than one ship.
• A ship can maintain only one lock. If a locking ship already has a lock, before the chosen object would be assigned a lock token, the ship’s former lock token is removed.

If an ability instructs a ship to acquire a lock, this is different than performing a [Lock] action. A ship that acquires a lock without performing the action can still perform the [Lock] action this round.

• If a ship is instructed to acquire a lock, the object it locks must be at range 0–3 unless otherwise specified.

On the one hand, it says the lock tokens are red tokens which are assigned to the ship being locked, the same as stress tokens etc. are assigned. However, it is not 100% clear because there are a couple of phrases which could be read as implying the lock token also belongs to the locking ship in some way ("During the Modify Attack Dice step of a ships attack, it can spend a lock token that it has on the defender...", "...the ship's former lock token").

My reading is that 1 is the correct interpretation: Holo can move a lock token that another ship has placed on Holo, not a lock token that Holo has placed on another ship. The phrases which might imply ownership by the locking ship are just for the sake of brevity and more natural text flow ("it can spend a lock token with a number matching the ID marker of the attacking ship which is on the defender" is a bit of a mouthful). In contrast, the lock tokens are explicitly stated to be red tokens which are assigned to the locked ship, a mechanic that is well established with other tokens (e.g. stress, strain) and which in every other case means the token belongs to the ship it is assigned to.

I'm leaning toward the 2nd interpretation. Here's why.

RR pg 20

Quote

The physical position of a token in the play area does not provide any effect and is merely representational of belonging to the ship.

Which to me, means the assigned lock tokens, belong to the ships that assigned them, not to the ship its assigned to.

1 hour ago, Ysenhal said:

. In contrast, the lock tokens are explicitly stated to be red tokens which are assigned to the locked ship, a mechanic that is well established with other tokens (e.g. stress, strain) and which in every other case means the token belongs to the ship it is assigned to.

Except stress and strain tokens are not constantly tied to the ship that assigned them. Locks are. Otherwise the lock tokens mean nothing. By the logic of #1, it would mean Holo could move condition tokens as well, which im confident isn't what FFG intends or means when they say "your tokens".

Given that, im also saying (now) that Count Dooku (Sith Infiltrator) cannot use his ability to remove a lock assigned to him, nor can "Matchstick" reroll a die for each lock assigned to him.

I feel like the Dooku judgment is supported by JAM in its wording.

Quote

After a jammed ship gains a green token or acquires a lock, the jammed ship removes that token or breaks that lock.

It doesnt simply say removes the lock token. It uses the specific word "break" the lock. Meaning you can remove lock tokens, but you can break locks.

Finally, Captain Kagi

Quote

If you do, transfer all enemy lock tokens from the friendly ship to you.

Which tells that the lock tokens belong to the ship that assigned them. So "your lock" refers to a lock you have on a ship.

This is, how im seeing it anyway.

A good explanation I heard was that the ship that acquires the lock "owns" the lock... but the targeted ship that's holding the TOKEN "owns" that token. So if Vader locks Luke, Vader "owns" the lock, but Luke "owns" the token.

For comparison and contrast, consider Count Dooku. He can spend a force to remove "1 of your blue or red tokens." By that argument, would he be removing the red token that he has assigned to an enemy, whom he has locked? Or the lock token someone else has placed on his ship? Similarly, if Dash Rendar uses the Outrider title to "remove 1 of your red or orange tokens," would he end up breaking the lock he held on an enemy, or could he remove an enemy lock on his own ship?

48 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

By the logic of #1, it would mean Holo could move condition tokens as well, which im confident isn't what FFG intends or means when they say "your tokens".

No, Holo's ability can't affect conditions either way - there are no condition tokens. Per P.8 of the rules reference, condition cards are what is assigned; condition markers are placed next to the ship to remind the players that it has the condition assigned, but they are markers, not tokens.

Quote

RR pg 20

Quote

The physical position of a token in the play area does not provide any effect and is merely representational of belonging to the ship.

Which to me, means the assigned lock tokens, belong to the ships that assigned them, not to the ship its assigned to.

I don't think that's relevant? I assume what you mean is that just because lock tokens are usually placed next to the ship being locked it doesn't mean they belong to that ship, but I don't think anyone is saying that. They're referring to assigning tokens in the rules sense, not the "physically putting them on the table" sense.

Quote

Given that, im also saying (now) that Count Dooku (Sith Infiltrator) cannot use his ability to remove a lock assigned to him, nor can "Matchstick" reroll a die for each lock assigned to him.

I feel like the Dooku judgment is supported by JAM in its wording.

Quote

After a jammed ship gains a green token or acquires a lock, the jammed ship removes that token or breaks that lock.

It doesnt simply say removes the lock token. It uses the specific word "break" the lock. Meaning you can remove lock tokens, but you can break locks.

I think Jam is written that way precisely because lock tokens belong to the ship they are assigned to. If it said "The jammed ship removes one of their lock tokens" it could refer to a lock token which has been assigned to the jammed ship by another ship. Instead it says the jammed ships breaks their lock to make it clear that jamming removes a lock the jammed ship has assigned to another object.

Quote

Finally, Captain Kagi

Quote

If you do, transfer all enemy lock tokens from the friendly ship to you.

Which tells that the lock tokens belong to the ship that assigned them. So "your lock" refers to a lock you have on a ship.

Yes, Kagi is interesting because I believe it's the only card that explicitly mentions lock tokens . Everything else refers to the lock itself rather than the token ("your lock", not "your lock token"; "break a lock", not "remove a lock token"). This is probably the strongest evidence in favour of lock tokens still belonging to the ship that assigned them.

There is actually another possibility which was not included in the opening post, which I shall label Interpretation #3: Target lock tokens belong to both the locked and locking ship, and therefore Holo can move both lock tokens they have on enemy ships, and lock tokens enemy ships have on Holo.

Also, two more potential issues:

A. In the opening post, emeraldbeacon refers to Holo transferring a lock to an allied ship so it can fire ordnance. However, remember you're transferring the token - if you move that token to a friendly ship, wouldn't that actually mean that Holo is now locking their wingmate instead of the enemy? If the blue half of target locks still existed you could transfer that to give another ship a lock, but as is I think it just means you lock your mate, which isn't very useful for First Order as far as I'm aware.

B. Under Tokens, p. 20:

Quote

When a ship is instructed to transfer a token to another ship, it is removed from that ship and assigned to the other ship.
◊ If a ship involved in a transfer is not able to remove or gain the token involved, the transfer cannot take place.

Does a technicality arise here under interpretation #2 or #3? Holo is instructed to "transfer a token". The token is then removed Holo and assigned to the other ship. But can the lock token really be "removed from Holo"? That sounds weird when the token is assigned to another ship. If you don't think you can "remove" the token from Holo, that would prevent its transfer under this rule.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

A good explanation I heard was that the ship that acquires the lock "owns" the lock... but the targeted ship that's holding the TOKEN "owns" that token. So if Vader locks Luke, Vader "owns" the lock, but Luke "owns" the token.

For comparison and contrast, consider Count Dooku. He can spend a force to remove "1 of your blue or red tokens." By that argument, would he be removing the red token that he has assigned to an enemy, whom he has locked? Or the lock token someone else has placed on his ship? Similarly, if Dash Rendar uses the Outrider title to "remove 1 of your red or orange tokens," would he end up breaking the lock he held on an enemy, or could he remove an enemy lock on his own ship?

I was just presenting a case for your other interpretation in how i *think* FFG is intending their abilities to work. The "red lock is yours" argument would give me more confidence if the abilities sayd "or red tokens assigned to you" instead "your red tokens". Then it would be unarguably clear.

both interpretations are valid. tokens that are assigned to you are your tokens. when you spend a lock to reroll attack dice when attacking, you're spending your lock on the ship that's defending. also, @Ysenhal 's interpretation #3 is valid. it seems to me that since FFG can't write, they need another errata.

x-wing 3.0 is already needed, since there have been so many erratas and so many of the rules are unclear. or at least they should release a cheap card pack with errata'd cards if they will keep ignoring their own rules and releasing sloppy content like this. an x-wing 2.1 if you will.

all that being said, the intention seems clear enough. "Holo" should read something like:

"At the start of the Engagement Phase, you must transfer 1 token assigned to you to another friendly ship at range 0-2."

that's how i would rule it and it seems reasonable enough, even though it's not as clear as it needs to be for everyone to be on the same page, i'm sure.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

tokens that are assigned to you are your tokens. when you spend a lock to reroll attack dice when attacking, you're spending your lock

isnt that.. a contradiction? It both belong the ship its assigned to AND the ship that assigned it.

3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

isnt that.. a contradiction? It both belong the ship its assigned to AND the ship that assigned it.

yes, it's definitely a contradiction. that's what i'm arguing. i'll dump a few references in this post for a clearer view of some of the things i'm basing my reasoning on.

it's interesting examining the language in the RR. some terms are well defined (you, may, before etc.), while others are lacking (your, assign, during etc.).

thanisson means lock tokens are actually gained, not just assigned. in all other cases that i know of, when something is gained, it belongs to that ship. still, the rules for locks state that a ship "can spend a lock token that it has on the defender", meaning the token also belongs to the ship that spends the lock.

3 hours ago, Lyianx said:

isnt that.. a contradiction? It both belong the ship its assigned to AND the ship that assigned it.

Why is it a contradiction for a token to "belong to" both ships in different capacities? Generally I would use interpretation 1 unless the ability does not function, then slide that specific ability to interpretation 2, but for Holo it is perfectly functional if used by the strict written interpretation of 'your tokens (including Locks) are those assigned to you'.

- For the locked ship: the Lock is 'your token' because it is a token that is assigned to you. This is evident from the line on p.20 that says token location on the mat is "representational of belonging to the ship." (I know @Lyianx already claimed that passage as evidence against this interpretation, but I disagree)

- For the locking ship: per the Lock rules on p.13 the Lock that matches your ID is at your disposal to spend and so the rules refer to it as a "lock token that it has" on the other ship. 'A lock you have' in real English is synonymous with 'your lock' and there's the ground to stand on but it's more RAI than RAW. I think there's cards that refer to locks this way, but I can't think of any of the top of my head.

You can consider the matching lock you acquired to be one of 'your tokens' in a plain English sense, but for game purposes it is not assigned to you. This is why Break a Lock is a game mechanic, it is needed to create a way to remove a token from the table that is not assigned to the affected ship.

I'm in the camp that Holo can move a lock an enemy has on him, but can't move a lock he has on an enemy. Nothing new to add, just that I find these arguments more convincing.

The more I think about it the more I think Holo can't move a target lock they have on someone else because of the transferring rules (technicality B in my post above) in combination with the Thanisson FAQ @meffo posted above, regardless of whether they own the token or not.

Transfer rules:

On 1/12/2020 at 4:43 PM, Ysenhal said:

When a ship is instructed to transfer a token to another ship, it is removed from that ship and assigned to the other ship.
◊ If a ship involved in a transfer is not able to remove or gain the token involved, the transfer cannot take place.

Thanisson FAQ:

(The important part of this is that lock tokens with different ID numbers are not considered the same token).

So! In order to be transferred, a token has to be removed from Holo and assigned to another ship, and the token must keep the same ID#.

For the sake of this argument, let's assume that Holo does own the lock with their ID number (either exclusively or in conjunction with the ship it's assigned to, it doesn't matter).

Case 1: Holo has a lock on Object A. They want to transfer ownership of the token from Holo to Friendly Ship B. But wait, the lock token still has Holo's ID# on it! You can't swap it for one with Ship B's ID because according to the Thanisson ruling that's a different token. So Holo's ownership of the token can't be removed properly, and therefore the transfer cannot take place.

Completing this transfer would actually put the game into a nonsensical game state; the lock token would "belong" to B, but the rules say e.g. if a ship is "instructed to break a lock is has, the lock token corresponding to its ID is removed", and how does that work if Holo no longer owns the token with their ID? Does Holo still "have" the lock? Does Ship B have a lock, or just a token? All is chaos.

Case 2: Holo has a lock on Object A. They want to transfer the lock token itself to Friendly Ship B. So the lock token is moved from A to B, and... hold on, this is actually a transfer from A to B and not from Holo to B. Holo still owns this lock token, they're just locking a different target now. Again the token isn't removed from Holo, so this isn't a valid transfer either.

So even if Holo owns a lock token they have on another ship, I don't think they have a valid way to transfer it.

On 1/12/2020 at 5:26 PM, theBitterFig said:

I'm in the camp that Holo can move a lock an enemy has on him, but can't move a lock he has on an enemy. Nothing new to add, just that I find these arguments more convincing.

I hope FFG clarified this soon.

Here's how I see this:

1) the Rules Reference defines the use of the "you" pronoun as always referring to the ship or remote, not the player. I can only assume that such usage is also understood as applying to "your", though if there's a specific rules reference that deals with "your", please point it out. That being said, "Holo"'s ability states that you must transfer 1 of your tokens to another friendly ship at range 0-2. This would suggest that the ability refers to any tokens currently assigned to the ship.

2) Locks, although they aren't paired as they were in 1.0, still do have a pairing mechanism - they're assigned and understood to be "owned" by the ship whose number ID matches the Lock token. They have two sides, a white and a black-coloured background, to differentiate between players using the same numbers. Thus, a Lock token with a number matching the ID number of the ship using it is still "your" token when referring to ownership, although it's assigned to someone else. I think @nitrobenz is right above - there's no inherent contradiction.

On 1/12/2020 at 7:26 PM, theBitterFig said:

I'm in the camp that Holo can move a lock an enemy has on him, but can't move a lock he has on an enemy. Nothing new to add, just that I find these arguments more convincing.

Hear, hear.

Found the answer else... Ignore

20 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Found the answer else... Ignore

Want to pass it on for the community's benefit?

On 2/12/2020 at 3:58 PM, feltipern1 said:

Want to pass it on for the community's benefit?

Charge tokens can't be passed to others

5 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Charge tokens can't be passed to others

Charges are not tokens. They are markers.

On 2/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, Shockwave said:

Charge tokens can't be passed to others

I was asking if you wanted to pass on the answer you found for the rest of the people here on this forum.

Sorry, is this solved?

2 hours ago, "Quickdraw" said:

Sorry, is this solved?

yes. it's in the RR.

Thanks, so he can't transfer his lock on an enemy ship?

6 minutes ago, "Quickdraw" said:

Thanks, so he can't transfer his lock on an enemy ship?

no, he can only transfer tokens assigned to him onto friendly ships.

On 12/25/2020 at 5:59 PM, meffo said:

yes. it's in the RR.

And just to clarify: I take it this means that Dooku CAN use his Pilot Ability to break locks that other ships have on him? And also that a YT-2400 may break enemy locks on itself using the Outrider title?