11 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

In general, I3 I4 still looks BAD. I1 I2 (I3 generic) swarms look better. I5 I6 got a little worse only cuz swarms are better now.

I think the key to buffing the middle initiative pilots is buffing the EPT slot, which they forgot to do for most part. The extra I does not compensate the loss of damage/durability for the extra cost and the EPT doesn't help with that either.

Most upgrades don't do anything other than increasing efficiency in some respect, but another ship is always more efficient than what an EPT brings.

We need some cheap upgrades that restore the rock-paper-scissors relation of low I Swarms vs. mid I 4-5 ship lists vs. high I Aces. It seems like FFGs plan is to make Swarms kill Aces, and Aces obviously kill Mid I, but those don't kill Swarms.

Treacherous should cost 1 or be free. Can't see any kind of use to it at 2p.

12 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yes I suspect we're on the slow down tilt to a better future, but its darn slow. 6 months of ignoring already ignored stuff.

Cmon FFG.

--

In general, I3 I4 still looks BAD. I1 I2 (I3 generic) swarms look better. I5 I6 got a little worse only cuz swarms are better now.

Ewings: I don't think 4x50pt Generics is even that great. They should go down to 48points. The I4s have a case for 51. The named pilots aren't taken in any way and should have gone down more. Gavin especially.

Jedi pilots: The middle ones are AWFUL. Jedi Knight generics should be 38->37->36, one point down is not enough to really matter. Barriss down to 37. Lumi and Saesee down to 42. Frankly, I think if I5 I6 goes up, then these numbers are ok. If they don't, realistically, Lumi and Saesee I4s should go down further to 41.
(I think Delta 7b might have had room to go up by 2 points . Or the force and fine tuned could be errata'd)
(CLT should drop a point)

Oddball, all pilots. WDF.

I4 generics, Silencer, Ewing, Sabers. Most of these could come down 1 point. (if not more, Silencer especially)

DBS-32C (the coordinator) while 42->40 is nice... Doesn't look like enough.

Naboo Handmaidens at I1. WDF. These just look so ridiculously pricey. Granted I haven't tried them but seriously... at that price point, I'll let someone discover it first.

Named Ties and TieFOs. Many of these could take another point drop. No I don't see 6 Inferno being that good. No, I don't think random mosquito swarm of named FOs is very good either.

Decimators I feel like we should get 66 point Deci's just for laughs. I bet they'd still be a bad list x3. I see very little risk there. The named ones miiiight be ok. I still don't think 2ship is good in this meta. I think they could be a tad cheaper.

Generally, 1pt drops are not very convincing at this stage.

Disagree with Jedi, who are OP. 5x CLT Jedi is easily one of the best lists in Hyperspace.

7 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

VTG+Dorsal is 13 points. You're getting a double-tap for 5, stop complaining, ingrates.

Nope, you aren't.
You have on one hand a non-conditionnal double tap with the VTG, and in the other one a conditionnal one.
Which means you won't modify any of your shots and you have to spend a TL to get the double tap effect. So you'll have to buy either a High init pilot or another upgrade (passive sensors) to be assured to get your double tap.

So if you want to compare, it's 13pts for VTG+dorsal versus 8pts for ailerons+AB+Passive. And the 8pts option gets its actions restricted and dice mods denied.
Not sure that's unfair.

Edit : double post.

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Certain Winners: No one (really)

Certain Losers: Lambda, TIE/D, Firespray, IG, G1-A, YV-666, Scimitar, Upsilon, T-70, Resistance Transport (not one of these will ever take a cannon that is not free)

Remains to be seen: B-Wing, Scyk, Jumpmaster

TIE/D went down 2 points. Even with a cannon, they're a point better than before.

IGs went down 1 point. Mist Hunter went down 1 point. Any of those with a cannon stayed the same as they were before.

Transport I'll count with Starwing, but for the rest... cannons were already rare. Cannons are mostly a thing for 2-dice ships, and I don't think that's bad.

TPV is still oddly expensive, but all the named Scyks (except like Inaldra, whose ability doesn't make sense without the 1e Pulsed Ray Shields) seem fine. Even Serrisu nerf makes sense, kinda: I've had Serrisu add a tonne of health to my squads by rerolls.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Bwings should be 40.

B-Wings shouldn't be 5-per-list. Their health is too low variance (all the other 5-per-list, 3-red-dice ships have enough variance to potentially die in two 3-dice attacks), and they are enough tougher over X-Wings that a point difference is kind of justified.

8 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

They're easily worth 5, if not 7. They're a steal at 2. Especially for Ten, as he can self double-mod with them, it's worth far more than 2 points for him even if it hadn't had the double-tap.

VTG+Dorsal is 13 points. You're getting a double-tap for 5, stop complaining, ingrates.

I can't quite go "worth 7." B-Wing double-tap costs an action, and one that's hard to accomplish on lower-init B-Wings. That's big, and certainly justifies a lower price than VTG.

But the complaining about cost is... kind of extreme. You're right about that.

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'd rather see them cost more and cannons cost less; I thought the whole point was to make cannons must-have for the B-Wing chassis (because thematics). I still see B-Wings likely taken without either. Foils at 2 seems awfully cheap, but I don't know if I'd want to take 2 cannons with the costs they're at. One for a double-tap kinda makes sense, but it seems like Jam-Autoblaster will be the norm, which is kind of a pity. I just don't see Ion, HLC, or Tractor being worth it at all; tractor to HLC is chasing a bad investment, as is Ion.

I think 2 points does the best job at splitting the difference. B-Wings without cannon double tap should be viable, since not everyone is going to have this pack of upgrades. The 1e way of forcing folks to buy upgrade packs to even justify playing a ship was bad.

While cannons aren't a "must have" I think cannons + foils is at least not a bad choice. Before it was a bad choice.

I'd also disagree about Ion. If we could get 4 PS/Ion Blues, that'd really be strong, but even now, I think they're worth it. Mass Ion is good, if you don't have to give up damage in your squad. S-Foil B-Wings keep damage, while still doing Ion control.

Tractor also should be felt out on the table. Pulling someone a range band closer is kind of a two-dice swing in effect. If you eliminate the Range 3 bonus, or add in also a Range 1 bonus on the other primary weapons, in addition to reduced agility, that's a LOT of firepower.

9 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

For the Jumpmaster, if they really wanted it to be a buff, then... why did they nerf their buff? It's a super weird mix.

It's still a buff. They basically got a 2-dice front gun for free, or a 3-dice Ion weapon for 3 points.

I think Ion Jumps seem like a neat ship. Rather tanky, and Ion limiting an opponent's maneuvers means your Jump dial gets better by comparison. Meanwhile, you don't have to stay nose-to-nose, you can move along side with a range 1 turret attack. I'll want to feel it out on table, but I'm bullish.

There's also the fact that Tel Trevura got a slightly bigger individual buff with his own price cuts. 3 points more than a Scout for a "second life?" Sounds good.

Vessery is still sad.

He's still somehow both the worst Defender and the most expensive.

I guess no one really cares.

But I do.

10 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And you lost me. Just ask the Lok Revenants: 3-primary/Ion double-tap is crazy powerful. For less than a quarter of your list it's a nightmare, even with limited mods.

The Stabilized S-foils double tap maps pretty closely to early 1.0 ordnance. Expensive, a lot of setup, and expected damage will often end up being comparable or less than what you would have gotten from a basic attack with a focus.

Again, I'm not disputing the potential on the aces (although I don't think it will work well vs. Arc Dodgers). But we've seen this before on generics. It was a trap. It does have some potential in Epic for hunting huge ships, though, especially since force multipliers will be much more easily available.

32 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Vessery is still sad.

He's still somehow both the worst Defender and the most expensive.

I guess no one really cares.

But I do.

On paper, Vessery seems like he should be so good. He was strong in 1e, and received no real changes. He pays 10 points over the same-init Generic, but gets a free Lock. 10 points for--not just a Force Charge--a full bonus action without stress or other penalty. Shouldn't that be amazing?

In some ways, it's strange that it hasn't really worked out. But I guess it's just hard to find the right partners for him. Either you have to bring lower-initiative ships (which aren't always great at getting locks), same-init (but Init 4 has always been an awkward spot) or bring someone higher initiative who doesn't want to spend their lock. I guess a TIE/x1 with FCS, but the list-tetris with Vader doesn't really work out great, and Maarek Stele is "fine, I guess."

Personally, I'd equalize all the limited Defenders on, like 81, same as I'd equalize Duchess, Pure Sabacc, and Countdown (she probably ought to be the same, IMHO).

13 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Also Ruthless should be free.

Ruthless is pretty dope already imo, and we don't need 8x ruthless Black Squaddies to be a thing.

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Vessery is still sad.

He's still somehow both the worst Defender and the most expensive.

I guess no one really cares.

But I do.

“You’re nobody ... but not to me”

”join me... please!”

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Transport I'll count with Starwing, but for the rest... cannons were already rare. Cannons are mostly a thing for 2-dice ships, and I don't think that's bad.

This is exactly the problem and it is bad.

If it has the slot the slot ought to have some use. It was awful before and it’s worse now.

Cannons for 3-dice ships are ways of getting control or auto damage effects. They’re obscenely overpriced.

There’s NO way to justify ion cannon being MORE expensive than Ion Turret. And tractor-HLC double-tap is a fun trick but will never ever be worth 10 points.

Either way, why make all the other ships suffer for the B-Wing’s strengths? Sure the other ships got buffs. Great! But they will never, ever, EVER take Cannons. Very bad move on FFG’s part.

3 hours ago, Squark said:

The Stabilized S-foils double tap maps pretty closely to early 1.0 ordnance. Expensive, a lot of setup, and expected damage will often end up being comparable or less than what you would have gotten from a basic attack with a focus.

Another reason the cost shouldn’t be in the Cannons but in the chassis; and if cannons don’t make your chassis better, maybe don’t get a slot tax for it? And if they do, maybe you should?

Scyks at at a good point now. But no, they won’t take Cannons in best cases. They’ll do better with torps, prockets, or naked.

2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Ruthless is pretty dope already imo, and we don't need 8x ruthless Black Squaddies to be a thing.

It’s total, absolute, unmitigated trash.

And 8x crack is already a thing, as is 8x TIE/fo, 8x Scyk, etc. 8x Ruthless certainly would not be stronger than these.

30 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

I think the key to buffing the middle initiative pilots is buffing the EPT slot, which they forgot to do for most part. The extra I does not compensate the loss of damage/durability for the extra cost and the EPT doesn't help with that either.

Most upgrades don't do anything other than increasing efficiency in some respect, but another ship is always more efficient than what an EPT brings.

We need some cheap upgrades that restore the rock-paper-scissors relation of low I Swarms vs. mid I 4-5 ship lists vs. high I Aces. It seems like FFGs plan is to make Swarms kill Aces, and Aces obviously kill Mid I, but those don't kill Swarms.

This is a good half of the problem.

The other half of the problem is that its the goddard year Anno Domino 2020. In general as a concept, rock paper scissors for gaming design is on the order of 50 years old. its BORING. its OLD. its been SOLVED. You can't just make a modern game of rock paper scissors. You have to do much more. You can't just do binary spectrum-al attributes like initiative.

What was good about Xwing? the Non-mathematical, non-linear aspect of maneuvering with dials and templates. THAT is WHAT is GOOD.

8 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

Disagree with Jedi, who are OP. 5x CLT Jedi is easily one of the best lists in Hyperspace.

WHET. Source plz.

41 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It’s total, absolute, unmitigated trash.

And 8x crack is already a thing, as is 8x TIE/fo, 8x Scyk, etc. 8x Ruthless certainly would not be stronger than these.

It really isn't, it's merely been overshadowed by crack shot (which probably should be at 2).

The big thing with 8xRuthlessness is insanely reliable damage and init advantage over other 8x lists. Trading for more than 25 points' worth of ship is more or less guaranteed.

I'm glad that FFG doesn't take most of the forums seriously for balancing purposes.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is a good half of the problem.

The other half of the problem is that its the goddard year Anno Domino 2020. In general as a concept, rock paper scissors for gaming design is on the order of 50 years old. its BORING. its OLD. its been SOLVED. You can't just make a modern game of rock paper scissors. You have to do much more. You can't just do binary spectrum-al attributes like initiative.

What was good about Xwing? the Non-mathematical, non-linear aspect of maneuvering with dials and templates. THAT is WHAT is GOOD.

Rock paper scissors was the basic balancing concept in 1.0, you know`? And I'd say it worked quite well until they ****** up the math with too many double mod and point fortresses that couldn't be damaged enough in time.

So what's the point of your post? Should we just accept that there is only 1 viable pilot on most chassis?

I'm going to have to start another deep dive thread on my N-1.

Because, I feel like they gained a TINY bit, but then post most of it in the other raises

3 hours ago, Tobbert said:

Rock paper scissors was the basic balancing concept in 1.0, you know`? And I'd say it worked quite well until they ****** up the math with too many double mod and point fortresses that couldn't be damaged enough in time.

So what's the point of your post? Should we just accept that there is only 1 viable pilot on most chassis?

Nah. Rock paper scissors isn't enough for a good game meta. Gotta have other stuff.

More how-to-use, how-to-fly

6 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I'm going to have to start another deep dive thread on my N-1.

Because, I feel like they gained a TINY bit, but then post most of it in the other raises

i think *lost(not post*)

33 points is eh. I mean. 6 bananas.. eh. Its a good thing. But I'm not gonna try 1-2 generics again for that.

The Handmaiderns and Padme are so expensive still.

On 1/11/2020 at 9:48 AM, GuacCousteau said:

Vessery is still sad.

This. The named pilots -esp Vessery- need a few points shaved, but no ability to run three (hello B-Wings?).

And TIE Aggressors, they’re still sad and TIE Bombers still are the better platform choice.

B-Wings went too low, that dovetailed with other Rebel hyper cuts forces Rebels into the “beef only” faction, which is fun limiting.

Jedi will still be the easy go-to and best choice in the “we don’t say their name” faction.

Separatists look fine, save Grappling Struts, which should be free.

Another point or two on Avenger and Recoil would make me happy, but the Order looks fine, yeah probably the faction hurt the least... and it should have as it was struggling.

Kad Solus

Just realised.

He's still good, but 7pt for his ability is pushing it.

This seems to be a theme.

3 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Kad Solus

Just realised.

He's still good, but 7pt for his ability is pushing it.

This seems to be a theme.

Joy Reckoff seems way worse. 5 points for the option to spend 6 points for 2 charges of Outmaneuver. Now, getting a second talent slot that can only be used on Outmaneuver isn't that terrible, but spending 11 points for those two charges? Yikes that's too much.

On top of the rest, I think Kad Solus' best talent is Elusive, which isn't in Hyperspace.

On 1/11/2020 at 1:48 PM, Blail Blerg said:

“You’re nobody ... but not to me”

”join me... please!”

You take this garbage, and get out of my sight! 😂