tl;dr, as Imperial (and especially as someone still very new to the game), how do I prepare against an opponent I'm pretty sure is going to bring Rebel MSU that particularly has a lot of ordnance focus?

Recently my friend and I have resumed playing Armada after a long absence (as in veeeery long, so long we were basically re-learning the rules from scratch), so while I have technically played the game a fair bit before, for the purposes of this act as if I am a completely new player.

I play Imperial, mostly have been trying a wide variety of mixed things trying to find what I like.

My friend, on the other hand, seems to have found his calling in life: fire as many black dice at me as he can possibly get his hands on, across as many ships as possible. Hammerheads, Scout Frigates, always has 2 flotillas, etc.

I've won both our games wherein he was using this fleet so far but I'm not feeling optimistic about the future for reasons I'll make clear soon:

First game against it was an easy win, his list was terrible even by newbie standards (not that mine are probably better, admittedly), and didn't understand a lot of his own abilities just due to unfamiliarity with the rules (he thought he could use Sato to turn his black dice armaments into red dice and fire 5 red dice off a scout frigate's broadside at long range, had Expanded Armaments on ships that had no hope of surviving after dropping their payload, no Ordnance Experts, etc).

Second game was also free win, our fleets were far apart but he lost his cool first, charged in what turned into a clumsy line, and got fed as a trickle to the front of an ISD with Gunnery Teams.

Next game is where I'm starting to get worried I might not be so lucky because, terrible as the first few attempts were, all his problems are fixable: he's getting more familiar with the rules, and his list is refining and he's getting practice with it. I'm sure I'm going to regret helping him with this, but I seemed to finally get through to him Expanded Armament is not a good choice on ships he plans to use like expendable missiles, and made him realize the synergy between Assault Proton Torpedoes, Sato, and Ordnance experts. He's not going to blindly race them at me again. He's getting better at not having his own ships traffic jam each-other each time we play. He's getting better at understanding how to exploit having a bajillion activation against my handful, and not just flying ships right in to an ISD's front.

Knowing now that he'll have actually good upgrades with a lot of trimmed fat, and I can't count as much on him making stupid blunders to win again (especially when its more likely me to be making the stupid blunders in the future), I'm not actually sure what I should be doing to prepare for it when I tried to think of how to approach my next list to try.

Demolisher is obvious choice, but I can't exactly build a whole fleet of them.

Have a few big ships to survive the the first hit and punch back? Yeah I'll thrash a lot of them but he has far more, and if he learned his lesson and can actually coordinate them and leverage the activation advantage to pin me in the trade off points-wise is going to favor him.

Squadrons? How do I protect a Quasar against ships storming in at speed 4? (p.s. just to double-check a point of contention, Sloane can discard exhausted defense tokens right? Like hypothetically if I attack with a TIE Fighter, roll an accuracy, spend his evade, then attack with another TIE Fighter, roll another accuracy, then I can discard the evade I just exhausted right? We argued over this for a while, but his argument amounted to 'that just sounds too strong to be right' while we couldn't find anything that proved me wrong either).

I don't have enough ships to get even close to fighting for activation supremacy, so what's the best way to deal with that? Give it up entirely and work with a strategy that doesn't care about activation?(If so, what strategy does that even work with?) or even if I can't win it should I still be fighting for as many as possible with thinning out my fleet with 2 Gozantis, strategic advisors, downgrading ships, etc?

Is winning the bid of utmost importance vs MSU? (and if so, is it because going first is a huge advantage or is it because MSU can be hard-countered in objectives?) or should I not even think about it and just cram as much power as possible in my list?

I know that bringing squadrons will be important because I can straight up deny Sato if I bubble-wrap my ships, but how are squadrons in general vs MSU? Should I aim for just enough squadrons as an escort to muck up his spotters, or if I'm bothering to bring fighters at all should I go all-in on them? If he switches to something like Ackbar does the advice change significantly?

So as Imperial, where am I right and wrong on the above? Is there a solid counter to fast ships and/or ordnance focus and/or MSU I'm just not piecing together? (Any general advice against Rebel MSU is also welcome because I could very much imagine him switching more to CR90s if closing to short range doesn't work out for him, and my mind just isn't seeing the strongest way to deal with many fast threats at once backed by an enormous activation advantage)

Proximity mines are a good counter to MC30s both variants have just the one anti-squadron die so they're good for getting some preemptive hull damage in. Dust fields, gravity rifts, tractor beams, slicer tools, targeting scramblers, and advanced projectors are all good ways to shut them down too.

On 1/10/2020 at 5:40 AM, player4608605 said:

Squadrons? How do I protect a Quasar against ships storming in at speed 4? (p.s. just to double-check a point of contention, Sloane can discard exhausted defense tokens right? Like hypothetically if I attack with a TIE Fighter, roll an accuracy, spend his evade, then attack with another TIE Fighter, roll another accuracy, then I can discard the evade I just exhausted right? We argued over this for a while, but his argument amounted to 'that just sounds too strong to be right' while we couldn't find anything that proved me wrong either).

An awful lot of questions!

To answer this query first, it is correct that you can spend the exhausted token. Yes, it's a strong 'thing', but the fighters that can deliver it are pitifully weak unless you bring aces.

Have you read this site?

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/

Fabulous advice about all the different ships and tactics you can use and it has really helped me. Have a look at the tournament index as well as everything else. I played an 800pt game against a friend before Christmas and I based my fleet on @GilaedPellaeon's NOVA victory fleet. It was a glorious victory and my opponent is still spitting feathers (and insisting Thrawn is too cheap and so are all the other ships I marmalised him with)

MC30's have problems taking out defense tokens, so ships with Brace are good.

A Damage Control Officer can also shutdown any ordnance on them.

Fight fire with fire and use Gladiators.

Sloane with a solid fighter compliment will also work well. (Interceptors are great for this)

21 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

Have you read this site?

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/

Fabulous advice about all the different ships and tactics you can use and it has really helped me. Have a look at the tournament index as well as everything else. I played an 800pt game against a friend before Christmas and I based my fleet on @GilaedPellaeon's NOVA victory fleet. It was a glorious victory and my opponent is still spitting feathers (and insisting Thrawn is too cheap and so are all the other ships I marmalised him with)

That site seems excellent, thank you.

17 hours ago, Englishpete said:

Sloane with a solid fighter compliment will also work well. (Interceptors are great for this)

Thanks for pointing out Damage Control Officer, I had overlooked that card. Against the scenario I described above, would it be best to bring a fleet built around Sloane that uses a fair number of cheaper carriers to enable a large amount of squadrons, or better to use something like ISD II + Quasar with Aces? If I go the 'many fighters' route are there certain aces I should always be bringing anyways?

Another thought - had you considered running Governor Pryce as your officer? Pryce allows you to go last on one turn (although you have to pick that turn at the start of the game) which means that your opponent can't out activate you on that turn.

Re: Aces - some work very well together. If you have 2 or 3 hard hitting aces (4 blue/black dice) Jendon is good for letting one of them attack a second time. Bossk and Zertik Strom go well together because Zertik can plink Bossk for 1 damage to get a reroll, then Bossk gets an extra dice on his attack.

I almost always use Zertik - he's good value at 15pts with his double brace.

Dengar and Mauler Mithel also work well together for me. Mithel hands out a whole heap of damage if you drop him right in an enemy squadron ball, and Dengar stops him getting tied down.

2 hours ago, player4608605 said:

If I go the 'many fighters' route are there certain aces I should always be bringing anyways?

Force multipliers like Howlrunner and Dengar really shine, Mauler is amazing in most wings. If you’re not flying Maarek and Jendon you should either have a very specific plan or be really strapped for points.

The ”standard” aces wing looks like this:

• Ciena Ree (17)
• Dengar (20)
• Howlrunner (16)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Saber Squadron (12)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 134

They complement each other in enough ways to devote a thread to, but basically Howlrunner buffs the normal attacks and the counter Dengar hands out, Valen mulches generics, Saber mulches key targets, (they can both hit Shara counter-free), Maarek is a lategame piece that murders anything on the table, Mauler does Mauler things, Ciena can attain counter 4 while being flak-resistant, and Jendon does more of whatever you need most while extending your threat range through relay.

3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The ”standard” aces wing looks like this:

• Ciena Ree (17)
• Dengar (20)
• Howlrunner (16)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Saber Squadron (12)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 134

Taking this and the above advice in to consideration, this is my first attempt at making a list around those specific squadrons

Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Fighter Ambush
Navigation: Solar Corona

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Sloane (24)
• Captain Brunson (5)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Avenger (5)
= 172 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Flight Commander (3)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Boosted Comms (4)
• Pursuant (2)
= 69 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Dengar (20)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Howlrunner (16)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Saber Squadron (12)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 400

Objectives I have basically no experience with and am just going off what information I can read, so feel free to experience horror if I've chosen terrible ones and set me straight. 400 points means no bid, but I'm not really sure what would be worth dropping to achieve with a bid, especially when I can't make even an educated guess how my opponent will bid. I kinda wanted to include Pryce, but I'm not sure what would be worth dropping to put her in (or if she'd even be better than Brunson in the first place). I'm kind of tempted to swap Electronic Countermeasures for Early Warning System just because I expect my opponent to be attempting many attacks in my ISD's front hull, and not so much have defense token manipulation.

I also tried making a list that was ISD+VSD(I felt like maaaaybe I was close to figuring something workable), and a list that dropped the ISD for more ships and attempt include Demolisher(that got nowhere close to 'yeah this definitely feels better than the list above'), but neither direction really made me feel good about the result compared to this list, though admittedly that's probably more to do with lack of list-building experience.

12 minutes ago, player4608605 said:

Taking this and the above advice in to consideration, this is my first attempt at making a list around those specific squadrons

Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Fighter Ambush
Navigation: Solar Corona

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Sloane (24)
• Captain Brunson (5)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Avenger (5)
= 172 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Flight Commander (3)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Boosted Comms (4)
• Pursuant (2)
= 69 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Dengar (20)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Howlrunner (16)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Mauler Mithel (15)
• Saber Squadron (12)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 134 Points

Total Points: 400

Objectives I have basically no experience with and am just going off what information I can read, so feel free to experience horror if I've chosen terrible ones and set me straight. 400 points means no bid, but I'm not really sure what would be worth dropping to achieve with a bid, especially when I can't make even an educated guess how my opponent will bid. I kinda wanted to include Pryce, but I'm not sure what would be worth dropping to put her in (or if she'd even be better than Brunson in the first place). I'm kind of tempted to swap Electronic Countermeasures for Early Warning System just because I expect my opponent to be attempting many attacks in my ISD's front hull, and not so much have defense token manipulation.

I also tried making a list that was ISD+VSD(I felt like maaaaybe I was close to figuring something workable), and a list that dropped the ISD for more ships and attempt include Demolisher(that got nowhere close to 'yeah this definitely feels better than the list above'), but neither direction really made me feel good about the result compared to this list, though admittedly that's probably more to do with lack of list-building experience.

Superior Positions is probably better than Solar Corona when you have such fast squadrons and Boosted Comms.

A common tactic is to drop the Gozanti altogether (in which case, you'd need a different objective than Most Wanted), put Pryce on the ISD and Brunson on the Quasar. This is known as a "Two-Ship" build (ISD, Quasar and squadrons). I'm not sure if it's better that way or not, but it would give you the option to choose first or second player (usually you'd want to take first player). Use Governor Pryce on turn 2, squadrons commands on both ships, use squadron commands again on turn 3 and by that time you may have murdered your opponents' squadrons and be ready to attack their ships.

Thanks again for pointing at Cannot Get Your Ship Out, reading it I seem to have found exactly what I was looking for to answer some of my questions at https://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/10/fighting-fleets-swatting-swarms.html

I am more than a bit annoyed that Google didn't find me that article when I was looking in the first place for answers, though... but what can you do -shrug-

As a new commander I found Relentless to be my preferred ISD title, because it was cheap and, by making the ship a command-2 ship, it made it easier for me to fix the mistakes I had made in my dials.

If you switched your title, and scrapped the Flight Commander on Pursuant, that would give you enough points for Quad Battery Turrets on your ISD. This lovely card gives you a blue dice against any ship moving faster than yours and at any range.

Because you're expecting to face fast small ships, this means an extra dice against them because you will mostly be going speed 1 or 2. More importantly, it allows you to use leading shots at long range, which will make a big difference to those unreliable red dice.

Cymoon with Darth Vader as a commander is the bane of MSUs. double accuracy, and 5-6 damage from long range is not something that the small ships take easily.
Rogues can also help you mess with the enemy's "last-first" they can attack the ships between the activations, damaging it before it can scoop away.

I play rebel MSU with a particular love of Hammerheads(own 4) and as the post directly above me, Vader+ gunnery teams= lots of dead small ships.

If your opponent is running MSU he probably has very few squadrons if any, so you dont need many, alternatively you could go bomber heavy to punish, but personally I like seeing more capital ship combat.

try something like this and see how he reacts at least I know I hate fighting something like this.

Name: Untitled Fleet
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault:
Defense:
Navigation:

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Relentless (3)
= 167 Points

Victory II (85)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 100 Points

Victory II (85)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
= 100 Points

Squadrons:
• 4 x TIE Fighter Squadron (32)
= 32 Points

Total Points: 399

QBT’s punish high speed and rebel corvettes melt in a front arc anyway so your opponent will probably stay high speed to try and avoid your front arcs.

Vader makes every attack consistant.

Strategic officer forces your opponent to make that one extra activation before you need to activate your ships, should increase your targets.