I noticed the cherry picking a bit too, though it likely was not deliberate. This is part of why I don't usually grant much weight to these ship-to-ship comparisons. They're notoriously hard to do; taking everything into account is pretty tough and a lot of assessments are pretty personal or arbitrary.

That FO dial, for example, counts a lot to me. I can feel the lack of maneuverability in the M3A when I want to fly it the way I would a TIE, for example... I feel the lack of 3-Turns and sloops. And the tradeoff of versatility (for a price) is really complex to compare; the ships diverge too much at that point.

And in their own faction they serve very different roles. Comparing across factions can be fraught with danger, as the options surrounding the ship matter quite a lot too. Part of the reason we don't see TIE/fo swarms is the faction is somewhat short on force multipliers, so a swarm of FOs is a bit too toothless. Torrents have their place as meat swarms and fillers for the other faction's ships, and the faction has little choice for the role, unlike other factions that can select from multiple cheap options. The M3A competes with the mining TIE, z-95, quadrijet, as well as the ships that are a slight step up like the fang fighter and kihraxz; the Torrent's role is secure for now, just not in hyperspace.

6 Ion Cartels, 7 Autoblaster Cartels, or 8 Naked Cartels... The main thing that makes them viable is the lack of force multipliers for Empire's swarms in Hyperspace, but even then, they must compete with the Mining TIE. 7 fearless Mining Guild Surveyors or 7 Autoblaster Cartels... I want to see how that pans out.

In extended, 6 naked cartels with Drea Renthal could be effective; Drea's a tanky Howlrunner replacement. But at that point, perhaps the mining tie is better since Drea can fit the same 6 helpers, plus have space to kit out Drea a bit, and give each swarmer crack shot. So once again, being in faction with the mining TIE is a challenge for the M3A, not to mention the Z-95. If it's not doing something potent with that cannon or a pilot ability, then perhaps don't bother. The control benefit of 6 ion cartels could maybe compete? Otherwise, scum swarms will perhaps be TIEs and Z-95s by default.

Overall I care more about results than speculation. I'm interested in seeing whether M3A swarms finally succeed, or if they're still too flimsy or uncompetitive to work out. The table is the ultimate judge.

16 hours ago, Wazat said:

6 Ion Cartels, 7 Autoblaster Cartels, or 8 Naked Cartels... The main thing that makes them viable is the lack of force multipliers for Empire's swarms in Hyperspace, but even then, they must compete with the Mining TIE.

I'm interested in seeing whether M3A swarms finally succeed, or if they're still too flimsy or uncompetitive to work out.

I'm not sure that Scyks are best used in swarms. They are cheap toolbox ships that can add a lots of tools at many initiative orders.

Still, they do have a difference over Z-95's as having a better dial and Shields over Tie Fighters. They have both 1 hard turns and 1 banks, which is pretty good to have on one ship.

If you really need a force multiplier, you have Serrissu for a defensive one.

13 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm not sure that Scyks are best used in swarms. They are cheap toolbox ships that can add a lots of tools at many initiative orders.

Still, they do have a difference over Z-95's as having a better dial and Shields over Tie Fighters. They have both 1 hard turns and 1 banks, which is pretty good to have on one ship.

If you really need a force multiplier , you have Serrissu for a defensive one.

Serissu (41)
Tractor Beam (3)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Ship total: 28 Half Points: 14 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Ship total: 28 Half Points: 14 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Jamming Beam (0)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Jamming Beam (0)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Jamming Beam (0)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (25)
Jamming Beam (0)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

The 7x autoblaster list could replace 1-2 autoblasters with tractor beams too.

I think you would do better to drop one Scyk and give them all Ion Cannons, except the Tractor on Serrissu.

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I think you would do better to drop one Scyk and give them all Ion Cannons, except the Tractor on Serrissu.

Nah, that's a loser list. Just can't push damage enough.

1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:

Nah, that's a loser list. Just can't push damage enough.

You can always use main weapons when you need damage. You don't have to fire the Ion. When you know where the enemy will be, it makes it easier to get your ships in a good spot.

I do not think that Scyks are too cheap. Their dial is not too good, esp for being called an Interceptor. They have difficulties to turn without a 3hard, only K and their trashy blue moves.

Your comparison fighter TIE fo has a much better dial.

I have flown 4 Scyks (one Serissu, Sunny, Tractor and Autoblasters) + Ahaav + Seevor.

Good defense (which still can blank out), but too low damage output.

This was before 5X and the discount on most other generics, as well. Almost everything else being cheaper will make life hard for the Scyks. And Serissu did go up 4pts by comparison.

I would find a way to include Sunny. She can be very good for giggles at time

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You can always use main weapons when you need damage. You don't have to fire the Ion. When you know where the enemy will be, it makes it easier to get your ships in a good spot.

You're also down to six rather flimsy ships, all rather anaemic, at that point I'd rather have 5 3 dice guns or 4+ serissu. Serissu with tractor beam and 4 cartel marauders fits(with 4 points to spare).

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'm not sure that Scyks are best used in swarms.

As somebody who has spammed them competitively (before the point drop) I agree. They are very dice dependent since they are entirely single mod/2 red attackers. Great filler and support ships, but as a swarm they need something to get them over the hill...

1 hour ago, dotswarlock said:

I would find a way to include Sunny. She can be very good for giggles at time

The giggling from your opponent stops when Sunny rolls double-crit on her range two autoblaster shot through a cloud. Of course, then you start laughing hysterically, so well, there is that...

I like the syck, however, the lack of an Illicit slot keeps it oyt of my list currently. I have tried using them before but to little or no success.

Hope there is a build for them that will be fun and competitive.

1 hour ago, martini74 said:

I like the syck, however, the lack of an Illicit slot keeps it oyt of my list currently. I have tried using them before but to little or no success.

Hope there is a build for them that will be fun and competitive.

What would you put in the illicit slot if they had one? You have to be careful when adding upgrades to a cheap ship like this - put in too many and it become very inefficient.

My attempts at using the scyk has not been to use them in swarms, but more to take one with a tractor beam.

It's there strictly to reduce the agility of the "designated" target.

I keep the initiative of the scyk at or higher than the rest of the ships in the list.

If I get to range one I might use it's primary, depending on whether other ships also have a shot on the same target.

But at range two or three it's usually the tractor.

If it had an illicit I'd put cybernetics on it. To be able to 3K or 5K and still get a modded tractor shot would be... useful.

On 1/15/2020 at 10:17 AM, Cerebrawl said:

You're also down to six rather flimsy ships, all rather anaemic, at that point I'd rather have 5 3 dice guns or 4+ serissu. Serissu with tractor beam and 4 cartel marauders fits(with 4 points to spare).

....which is what I was suggesting. Everyone wants to take Scyks and swarm them, but I don't think that's the best use for them. I think some mixed with other ships is good. It doesn't have to be Serissu, either.

TPV is Init 3 and can fire before Cartel Marauders, so a Tractor Beam is good. I've used a list like that from the beginning of 2.0 and it works great. It keeps getting cheaper, too, so it gets better.

Oh, I mostly have also only one fielded, if I fly Scyks.

But I wanted to test autoblaster/MGT swarm - not convinced. And possessing 6, I will certainly for giggles fly a full swarm (+MGTs) as they are cheap enough now, but fully expecting it to be not good enough.

Them going down, will be brutal inEpic: throw in some few with Jamming against the Huge ships.

As for singles, before release of Jedi (force) and Seppies (calculate) I tried to get Genesis Red to work (not really successful).

Otherwise I use often Serissu with a Tractor to soften up and occasionally giving teammate the defense bonus. However, with her going up and Tractor nerfed for the second time (stupid Nantex!)....

Or Sunny Bounder - because she is fun!

And while she is Ini 1, and thus placed out early and indicating where you start, she is fast enough I sometimes used her to mislead my opponent where I am actually going to setup. Opponent places opposite of her, but she is then "all of a sudden" alone there, and my main force sits completely elsewhere, giving me a much better start. If opponent did not fall for it, she closes with my forces still about in time.

I am pumped for G4R as a blocker/disrupter. I am curious if opponents prefer to not place opposite of him And maybe packing R5TK on a M12 or Kavil, to be on the "safe" side. Got to be careful though, do not bump train yourself

15 hours ago, gadwag said:

What would you put in the illicit slot if they had one? You have to be careful when adding upgrades to a cheap ship like this - put in too many and it become very inefficient.

Captain Jostero (42)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Binayre Pirate (22) x5
Concussion Missiles (6)
Deadman's Switch (2)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v8ZsZ200Z122X311WW93WWY159X99W93WY159X99W93WY159X99W93WY159X99W93WY159X99W93W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Binayre Pirate (22)
Proton Rockets (7)
Deadman's Switch (2)
Munitions Failsafe (1)

Binayre Pirate (22) x7
Deadman's Switch (2)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v8ZsZ200Z159X102W93W108Y159XW93WY159XW93WY159XW93WY159XW93WY159XW93WY159XW93WY159XW93W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Binayre Pirate (22) x8
Feedback Array (3)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v8ZsZ200Z159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94WY159XW94W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

4 hours ago, Managarmr said:

As for singles, before release of Jedi (force) and Seppies (calculate) I tried to get Genesis Red to work (not really successful).

In HS you can try Genesis Red with Proton Torpedoes, a lot of targets below I5. Double mods Protons for 44 points is a great deal.

I'm going to try an I1 Mini-Swarm

2 x Fangs

2 x Ion Scyk

2x Tractor Scyk

I'm hoping a mix of Blocking, Ion control and Tractor support will be fun.

I tried Genesis Red, Inaldra and Sunny alongside 2 Fearless Skulls tonight. Had fun but didn't quite know how to solve the puzzle, Kylo plus 2 FOTP was a bit too much for me.

Amusingly, at 197, he only won the bid by a point. I didn t even bid, just ran out of stuff I wanted.

Reds ability was useless ofc, but shooting 1st with tractor needed him or Serrisu. A nice and potentially critical threat, but hard to land where it's most needed.

Inaldra rerolled 2 entire attacks into hits and crits. Would have been great if the 2nd one hadn't been dodged, a negative trade in one shot

She's pretty cool and can probably achieve decent things with more punch. I2 will make it very hard to get opportunity for such attacks. And she's killing herself. I'd honestly take an I1 over her, unless playing for laughs, which she's very good for .

Sunny is a must have. On good form tonight. Twice turned eyes into 3 hits. Rolled 2 crits out of hand, behind a shieldless FOTP, after yoloing through debris... all of 3mm out of Autoblaster range

FOTP nattied 3 evades 😭

Obviously a good blocker and a genuine flank terror. Her ability does really well on 2 dice.

Serissu. Hmm. I took her out of my thinking because the cost seemed too much for the downside of a R1 bubble. But it may have worked better for me if I had kept tighter. Currently not massively tempted at that price though. More ships the merrier for her.

It's tricky to judge the list, I think I made good calls and didn't make any actual errors. I could have got a better round of shots on second trade, but I picked a decent set of positions that covered multiple options and kept the game open, without losing too much. Just all seemed to run out of health too quickly to get ahead, finishing with 3 ships each.

The Skulls need their twins for me, I think. I feel like an ace, or big and multi arc wants to be in with the Scyks somehow. Something to herd or hunt. Gonna see what I can do with Fenn/Firespray in the mix, for HS.

Sunny is IN.

In extended, Sunny, 2 Fearless Skulls and Predator Fenn is 200. I'd be in on that. 2pt bid in HS but no passive mods for Fenns random reds? 😬

You know FFG made sure you couldn't fit Fearless on Fenn there.

Kath, 2 AB Spacers and Fearless Fenn fits 200. Might look harder in that direction. And try to fit Sunny.

21 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

I'm going to try an I1 Mini-Swarm

2 x Fangs

2 x Ion Scyk

2x Tractor Scyk

I'm hoping a mix of Blocking, Ion control and Tractor support will be fun.

I think the extra Scyk in here, over the names and such I have above, is likely the better option. But I'd Autoblaster the lot of them, that thing hurts . Serissu starts to look nice with those numbers too....

I only have 3 Scyks though

8 hours ago, Managarmr said:

I am pumped for G4R as a blocker/disrupter. I am curious if opponents prefer to not place opposite of him And maybe packing R5TK on a M12 or Kavil, to be on the "safe" side. Got to be careful though, do not bump train yourself

I’m also really excited to try something like G4R + R5TK Torani. It’s not going to be an amazingly competitive combo but it’s gonna be stupid fun.

Speaking of stupid, I think this is gonna be my first list with some things that changed points once I can get a game in. It doesn’t get all the way to Torani + G4R, but I don’t have the aces pack yet either:

Tel Trevura (44)
Ion Cannon (6)
0-0-0 (5)
Hull Upgrade (5)

Sunny Bounder (27)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Executioner (41)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Contraband Cybernetics (2)

Han Solo (54)
Trick Shot (4)
Lando’s Millennium Falcon (3)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

7 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I think the extra Scyk in here, over the names and such I have above, is likely the better option. But I'd Autoblaster the lot of them, that thing hurts . Serissu starts to look nice with those numbers too....

I only have 3 Scyks though

I sort of accidentally ended up with 11. So I should try out a Scyk swarm and paint some of them too.

Next week i'll try Swarm tactics & Tractor Serrisu + AB Sunny + 2x AB Spacers + 2x Ion Spacers and let you know how that goes.

I finally managed to get a game last night. Dropped two Procket Pirates, Fenn, and a slightly chonky Dengar on the board against a slightly slender Rey, slightly chonky Nien, and a naked Greer. Never managed to fire off either Procket, Fenn did Fenn things, and Dengar.... 'Cause that's why we're here - to talk about Dengar. He had Trick Shot, Autoblasters, BT-1, IG-88D, Contrabands. And it was fine. Fenn still felt better, but Dengar didn't feel like a waste. I managed to use the Contrabands, which doesn't always happen. I never actually used the Calculate action, either locking or bumping. Never used Trick Shot, in spite of kiting around the edge of the asteroid field with my turret faced in. BT-1 triggered on about half of his attacks, and I put in two or three unblockable crits from the Autoblasters. Dengar's double-tap only fired off twice(?) because my opponent generally refused to shoot unless the shot was flanking. Overall, Dengar felt okay; just not as much fun to fly as other ships out there. And so I will probably leave him alone. Nom Lumb looks like a giggle, and might even be worthwhile competitively - unlike Dengar. Even at i6 with the potential to double tap, it just feels like there are better *competitive* options in such circles. And the JM5k still feels like a brick to fly, ha ha.

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 9:17 AM, Cerebrawl said:

You're also down to six rather flimsy ships, all rather anaemic, at that point I'd rather have 5 3 dice guns or 4+ serissu. Serissu with tractor beam and 4 cartel marauders fits(with 4 points to spare).

I've got a similar build.

Inaldra w/Tractor beam, Afterburners (39)

Cartel Marauder w/Cybernetics (40)

Cartel Marauder w/Cybernetics (40)

Cartel Marauder w/Cybernetics (40)

Cartel Marauder w/Cybernetics (40)

Total (199)

I like the cybernetics on the marauders, but I can definitely see the effectiveness of using Serissu.

3 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

Nom Lumb looks like a giggle, and might even be worthwhile competitively - unlike Dengar.

If an I1 Jumpmaster emerges as a meta staple, I will laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh and then thank FFG profusely for cracking the code on the brokenest ship in two editions.