So with all the new ships announced and previewed an interesting thought has occurred. The First Order really has one option for an I1 blocker/filler/swarming ship. The Epsilon Squadron Cadet. And the maybe left out in the cold, when the Xi arrives if trying to match up Initiative for better maneuvering. LT. Rivas is at 1 as well but that’s really it.

The Silencer has an I1 generic but at 51 points(at the time of this post) it’s not a filler or a swarm ship. The F/O doesn’t have the ships/crew currently to make them as durable or scary as an I1 Defender.

TIE/S/F low man is I2 which isn’t bad and can fill the role if it needed to. Though will match up nice with the new Shuttle as an escort cost permitting.

The Upsilon has Thanisson at I1, but well let’s face it the Shuttles issues are well documented at this point. The SBP is i2 so again pairs better with Zeta’s for interchangeable movements as needed.

Neither the TIE/ba or the coming Xi shuttle will have anything below I2.

So it really seems as if the low cost low initiative “swarm” is something being mechanically discouraged within the F/O or at the very least pushed into a slightly different Initiative level. Seems a weird one off to me.

So the F/O wants to be an Aces heavy faction but at least until we see those Interceptors on the table going to be hard to see their aces being meaningful outside of Kylo/QuickDraw.

It's probably supposed to be a commentary on how The First Order is full of elite operators- far more focused on high quality training and drilling than The Empire ever was.

1 hour ago, KCDodger said:

It's probably supposed to be a commentary on how The First Order is full of elite operators- far more focused on high quality training and drilling than The Empire ever was.

This actually make a huge amount of sense, well penned sir, well penned.

I don't think there is some grand design to make the First Order an aces faction or anything like that. I think FFG just takes these ships one at a time, and tries to match the source material as best they can.

Also not sure why it's "Ace or Swarm." There are some good 4-ship FO squads out there. But if your driving point is, "Hey, First Order only has one cheap i1 ship," my response is, "Yeah and the Empire has only 3 out of 14. That's just a little higher than 1 out of 6 for FO." It's just what the source material has to offer at the moment.

Slight potential Rise of Skywalker spoiler:

5 hours ago, Ronu said:

So it really seems as if the low cost low initiative “swarm” is something being mechanically discouraged within the F/O or at the very least pushed into a slightly different Initiative level. Seems a weird one off to me.

I mean, you can fit 6 I1 FOs with advanced optics and have 20 points to spare. I've been running an FO swarm for a while with pretty consistent success. Just because they aren't as cheap as vultures doesn't mean they're not efficient. Few I1 pilots is more a symptom of a small faction than anything else. Half their current ships have an I1 generic, so I'd hardly call that rare.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

This actually make a huge amount of sense, well penned sir, well penned.

not sir
Thank you. Totally not just fangirling the First Order.

3 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

I mean, you can fit 6 I1 FOs with advanced optics and have 20 points to spare. I've been running an FO swarm for a while with pretty consistent success. Just because they aren't as cheap as vultures doesn't mean they're not efficient. Few I1 pilots is more a symptom of a small faction than anything else. Half their current ships have an I1 generic, so I'd hardly call that rare.

See it's worth consideration that the TIE/FO is strictly better than the TIE/LN in basically every way, even cost. You get so MUCH more for so LITTLE extra cost, and they can afford to take a hit, which is REALLY important for a list filler. This is why the V-19 is still list filler top dog, because while crits melt it? It has five hull. What makes the TIE/FO even is being more nimble and being able to shrug off a crit.

Think about that. A standard line TIE Fighter that can shrug off crits.

The First Order is SO good.

45 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

See it's worth consideration that the TIE/FO is strictly better than the TIE/LN in basically every way, even cost. You get so MUCH more for so LITTLE extra cost, and they can afford to take a hit, which is REALLY important for a list filler. This is why the V-19 is still list filler top dog, because while crits melt it? It has five hull. What makes the TIE/FO even is being more nimble and being able to shrug off a crit.

This. The TIE/fo is.....well, it's pretty awful compared to most faction's 'main' ships - the T-65, T-70, Protectorate, and so on. But what you get for your cost is amazing .

As an upgrade package on the TIE/ln it's getting speed 2 blue turns and swapping its speed 3 koiogan for speed 2 segnors (broadly equivalent of a 2-point R4 astromech), the ability to lock (equivalent of a 3-point targeting computer), a shield (equivalent of an 8-point shield upgrade) and a tech slot which provides no benefit in and of itself but allows you to equip pattern analyser, advanced optics and (soon) shield regeneration.

Total cost of this upgrade bonanza? 3 points. 3 bloody points .

This thread isn’t a knock on the validity of the TIE F/O though. It’s known at least by me and acknowledged by others to be a solid ship. It’s more meant to be a commentary on the direction that I am seeing the F/O moving as they expand outward.

For me at least based on what’s out there the F/Os Generics are almost all starting I2. Is it significant with only 6 known ships? Perhaps not, but it could be something interesting to watch going forward.

4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

This. The TIE/fo is.....well, it's pretty awful compared to most faction's 'main' ships - the T-65, T-70, Protectorate, and so on. But what you get for your cost is amazing .

As an upgrade package on the TIE/ln it's getting speed 2 blue turns and swapping its speed 3 koiogan for speed 2 segnors (broadly equivalent of a 2-point R4 astromech), the ability to lock (equivalent of a 3-point targeting computer), a shield (equivalent of an 8-point shield upgrade) and a tech slot which provides no benefit in and of itself but allows you to equip pattern analyser, advanced optics and (soon) shield regeneration.

Total cost of this upgrade bonanza? 3 points. 3 bloody points .

It's SO good!

5 hours ago, KCDodger said:

It's probably supposed to be a commentary on how The First Order is full of elite operators- far more focused on high quality training and drilling than The Empire ever was.

Everyone always says that the Galactic Empire are space Nazis. No, the Galactic Empire is more like the German Empire that fought in WWI. Just replace Kaiser Wilhelm with Palpatine. No, the First Order are the Nazis! Fanatical hyper-Right lunatics that want nothing more than to rain death and destruction upon the galaxy!

Contrary opinion. Tie FO is still oddly bad.

Point 1: Tie/lns should be 22pts, not 23.

Point 2: yes the value seems to be amazing, but we already know that scaling of further upgrades is scant compared to their cost as modifications. See t-70 also. Also, FO and Resistance "hero" aspect starts to come into play. Same chassis, requires a lot more value to increase in return.

Point 3: They don't synergize with anything. Surprise surprise, 26 points of random ship ain't that great right now.

Point 4: Torrents are pretty ick without Sinker. (Though the FO dial is amazing)

Point 5: Show me where tie FOs have been used in tournament data. afaik, esp with worlds, they haven't even broken tier 2 let alone tier 1.

Reminder that points are not additive scales, they are likely multiplicative, and attack dice are probably the largest factor.

3 hours ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Everyone always says that the Galactic Empire are space Nazis. No, the Galactic Empire is more like the German Empire that fought in WWI. Just replace Kaiser Wilhelm with Palpatine. No, the First Order are the Nazis! Fanatical hyper-Right lunatics that want nothing more than to rain death and destruction upon the galaxy!

The Empire was definitely nazis.

Nazis and Neo-Nazis.
The empire is to the first order what Nazis are to the alt right.

4 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

The Empire was definitely nazis.

Agree to disagree. I'm certainly not here to change anyone's mind on the matter, but that's my perspective.

3 hours ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Agree to disagree. I'm certainly not here to change anyone's mind on the matter, but that's my perspective.

No. The Empire wiped out an entire religious group after rallying a desperate government and society. That speaks volumes. Their signature colors are monochromes and reds. They are a racial supremacist group within the galaxy. What more evidence do you need that they're nazis? How about the slavery camps? The wilful disregard for the environment in the name of the imperial war machine? Constant efforts to push their boundaries in the name of the empire? Seriously, come on. I am not going to agree to disagree. The assertion that The Galactic Empire is more like WWI germany than WWII germany is patently false, especially when you consider the fact that Star Wars was based largely OFF of WWII. Gods, even Imperial uniforms evoke that of Nazi uniforms.

Just, don't go down the road of considering The Empire sympathetic. Used to be there, but at this juncture with the information we have, there's literally no reason for it.

Again. They wiped out an entire religious group and hunted the rest down, enslaved non humans, and have literally the same aesthetic.

holy s**t their mainline units are called STORMTROOPERS.

You can't get more on the head than that!!!

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Nazis and Neo-Nazis.
The empire is to the first order what Nazis are to the alt right.

Bingo.

Well Nazis was part of it. But the empire was a place holder for the united states as well. Twice actually, first in relation the the recent Vietnam war for Star Wars and then for the political changes after 911 and the Irak war.
But the base is still totalitarianism. fascism and plenty of references to Nazis.

Can’t we all just get along? 😉 😎

2 minutes ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Can’t we all just get along? 😉 😎

Sure, sure, unless you are rebel-, scum or resistance.

It would makes sense for the FO to have less initiative 1's. They are kidnapping/conscripting children indoctrinating them and training them. I dont think they have any choice unlike say an academy graduate.

Thannisson is no longer rare at 59 points.

7 hours ago, KCDodger said:

No. The Empire wiped out an entire religious group after rallying a desperate government and society. That speaks volumes. Their signature colors are monochromes and reds. They are a racial supremacist group within the galaxy. What more evidence do you need that they're nazis? How about the slavery camps? The wilful disregard for the environment in the name of the imperial war machine? Constant efforts to push their boundaries in the name of the empire? Seriously, come on. I am not going to agree to disagree. The assertion that The Galactic Empire is more like WWI germany than WWII germany is patently false, especially when you consider the fact that Star Wars was based largely OFF of WWII. Gods, even Imperial uniforms evoke that of Nazi uniforms.

Just, don't go down the road of considering The Empire sympathetic. Used to be there, but at this juncture with the information we have, there's literally no reason for it.

Again. They wiped out an entire religious group and hunted the rest down, enslaved non humans, and have literally the same aesthetic.

holy s**t their mainline units are called STORMTROOPERS.

You can't get more on the head than that!!!

Bingo.

British, French, Americans plus many more have done this to native people across the world.

America kept US Japanese citizens in internment camps, Australia did it with Europeans during WW2.

Britain and France thought they were racially superior in India and Africa and pretty much helped to create the strife going on there now with false borders and exacerbating tribal disputes.

Storm troopers were never mainline German units in either wars. Stosstruppen were elite soldiers used for infiltration and assault tactics in 1915.

Mainline German Landsers where in the Wehrmacht, they weren’t sturmtruppen. They were more likely to be Panzer Grenadiers as part of a mechanised assault force.

Are the empire modelled on the NAZIs? Probably, doesn’t mean they couldn’t also be someone else.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Thannisson is no longer rare at 59 points.

Correct. And Epsilons aren't rare at 8 in a 200 point squad. Interesting. FO is quite intriguing.

2 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Correct. And Epsilons aren't rare at 8 in a 200 point squad. Interesting. FO is quite intriguing.

Your feelings betray you...

3 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Correct. And Epsilons aren't rare at 8 in a 200 point squad. Interesting. FO is quite intriguing.

I’d love to try it out but I’ll need another 2-3...

Never need to have that problem with interceptors.

I have 5 Ints. For much of 1e that was 3 too many, even though we could field 5. Now we really need just 1, but we can field 6.... sigh.

(We might get more pilots in the future hopefully).

Atm, only Soontir or mass 31pt generics look all that enticing.

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I don't nearly get the same kick of adrenaline thinking about any more than 3 Tie FOs tho. Though, I don't really like flying Ties anyway...