A question that came up recently:

Our Gunslinger has dumdum bullets in his Trantor which has a penetration of 2.

So as armor points count double against dumdum bullets, do the armor points get doubled before or after penetration is applied?

If this is already answered elsewhere in the forums I am utterly sorry, but I couldn't find it.

Before. The Armour Value is doubled and then the PEN is figured and then the remaining damage is reduced by any remaining armour and Toughness Bonus.

-Cynr

primitive penetration does not work against non primitive armour... (pen effectively is 0)

I get across this what do I halve first question continuously but it is just no primitive pen against non primitive AP

in my copy of the inquisitors handbook in the appendix below primitive ranged weapons there is a line that clearly says:

"The Penetration (Pen) of weapons with the Primitive quality only applies versus armour that also has the Primitive quality."

and dumdum gives your weapon the Primitive quality.

Sirion said:

This is true, but while dum-dums have the same effect on armour as primitive weapons, they aren't specifically listed as primitive weapons.

from france

in this case i prefer the description to the list if i have to apply rules. wile description are subject to debate they are les pronne to error thant table. just look how many their was for the handbook.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

N0-1_H3r3 said:

if you rule it like this of course the pen of the weapon is not touched by the bullets and is not halved...

but I'ld say the weaon qualities are directly modified with all consequences
(because manstopper for example do modifiy the pen of the weapon!)

Um... so? The Dum-Dum rules make no reference at all to the weapon counting as primitive.

so with a hypothetical crossbow that has a pen of 2 and is primitive and hyptothetical crossobow ammo that is explicitly not primitive I'ld still do primitive pen and primitive damage because the damage is from the weapon and not from the ammo?

Sirion said:

No. If you mono a bolt, the weapon (as long as it's firing the mono-bolt or other such thing) will not do primitive damage. However, that doesn't really apply here. You're missing a crucial point that others have been trying to make in regards to the Trantor with dum-dum's conundrum: neither the weapon (the Trantor) not the ammunition (dum-dum bullets) have the primitive trait. In your example, the crossbow has the primitive trait, thus when used, unless something takes that trait away, it will apply as you described previously. However, in this situation, the primitive trait was never applied to either the weapon (the Trantor) or the ammo (dum-dum bullets). The weapon dose not do primitive damage and the ammunition dose not do primitive damage. The primitive trait never comes up. Granted, there is a similarity between how dum-dum rounds are treated (double the AP) and the primitive trait, but they do not explicitly have the primitive trait otherwise they would be listed as having the primitive trait. They are not primative.

The issue here is when the pen of a non-primitive weapon is removed from armour which has it's value doubled due to the weapons ammunition, which is also not primitive, but not too good at going through armour all the same.

I'd say more on the dum-dum/pen issue but I belive Cynr toke care of it in the first response.

I thought the bullets were primitive I think you're right

Thank you all for your replies.

GM says we will go with the answer from Cynr.