3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Given the terms remain essentially unchanged from WEG’s days, that’s probably a safe assumption.

Was it ever confirmed by FFG or Lucasfilm that such a stipulation existed?

I know there's been a lot of folks saying "well FFG has to produce X number of RPG supplements per the license," most of which seems to based on the presumption that WotC had that stipulation when they possessed the license, but it's beginning to sound more like second- and third-hand hearsay than anything legitimately concrete from an official source.

I haven't read every post in this thread; so, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, I am not deliberately trying to step on anyone's toes.

I am only a recent convertee to this game, and the idea that the game might becoming defunct does cause me some concern. I have a long history of falling in love with games that either go out of print or never gains any traction in my local gaming market.

Currently, I only have EotE, and I have recently started playing in a FnD game. It looks like a great game. Even without any other supplement, there is a lot of potential without anything else, but I would like to use FFG as my replacement for WEG. I have no intention of getting rid of WEG or to never play or run it again, but from the looks of it, FFG would allow me to port all of my old ideas from WEG while opening up new possibilities. In the very least, I would like to get the three core books, but I would also like to get all of the career and era books in order to build my universe.

Besides having a strong interest in roleplaying games in general and Star Wars gaming in particularly, I am trained in business analytics. My degree is still incomplete and am not actually working in my field, but I am fully trained. From a purely business position, the game seems to be in the cash cow phase. There is still a lot of market potential, but I would not expect any great leaps in market growth. Consequently, I feel the smart move would be for FFG to slow down develop of new material and concentrate in maintaining the production of older products in order to milk late arrivors like myself while limiting cash outlays.

That being said, most business people are actually quite dumb when it comes to business, and they make dumb decisions, and we are dealing with apparently three business entities with their own managements: LucasArts/Disney, FFG, and Asmodee. To be honest, I understand the connections only contextually. Correct me if I am wrong. FFG has a license from LucasArts/Disney to produce Star Wars games. Asmodee has bought out or is in the process of buying FFG causing the state of the license to come into doubt. The way I see it all three entities have good reasons to stay at the table to work out a deal. For LA/D, the Star Wars line is fizzling. Apart from Mandolorian, most Star Wars ventures are underperforming among the fanbase and many areas for Star Wars merchandising are losing money. This game is one of the few shining lights for Star Wars merchandising, and it would be a benefit to the Star Wars brand for them to work out a deal. For FFG/Asmodee, making a profit in the gaming market is tough. Star Wars is a money maker for them. It would be very beneficial for them to retain the Star Wars brand. That being said, I think that FFG/Asmodee is in position to work a slightly better deal as long as they don't get too greedy, but neither side has a genuine advantage or disadvantage in negotiation in the long run.

The smart move for LA/D is to either allow FFG/A to have more latitude in deciding whether or not to push canon or legends material or to reduce the costs of maintaining the license. I think this would be best for both sides, and I think it would best for the market base.

As I have said, there are a lot business people who are bad at business. The powers that be could make decisions that could kill the line to the detriment of themselves and to the market base. That remains a definite possibility, but there is no reason to give up hope. They could potentially work out a deal that is actually better for everyone. If this is true, the worst crime that is being committed against us is their continued silence on the subject.

2 hours ago, Balorna said:

Correct me if I am wrong. FFG has a license from LucasArts/Disney to produce Star Wars games.

Correct.

2 hours ago, Balorna said:

Asmodee has bought out or is in the process of buying FFG

Asmodee purchased FFG several years ago. However, I believe Asmodee has been looking for a buyer (for Asmodee as a whole, not just FFG) for a while now.

2 hours ago, Balorna said:

causing the state of the license to come into doubt.

It’s not so much the state of the license that’s in doubt. The license also covers the X-Wing, Armada, and Legion tabletop miniature games, which are all healthy. It’s more the future of RPGs from FFG - all of them, not just Star Wars - that has a question mark hanging over it in the wake of the entire RPG department being laid off in early January (presumably to make Asmodee more attractive to potential buyers).

The only statement we’ve seen is that the announced products (such as the Starships and Speeders book, the Genesys Keyforge setting book, and the announced L5R sourcebook) will be released, and that the RPGs will be “ongoing.” We just don’t know if “ongoing” means new product will be developed using 100% freelancers or simply that the existing product will remain in print.

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Correct.

Asmodee purchased FFG several years ago. However, I believe Asmodee has been looking for a buyer (for Asmodee as a whole, not just FFG) for a while now.

It’s not so much the state of the license that’s in doubt. The license also covers the X-Wing, Armada, and Legion tabletop miniature games, which are all healthy. It’s more the future of RPGs from FFG - all of them, not just Star Wars - that has a question mark hanging over it in the wake of the entire RPG department being laid off in early January (presumably to make Asmodee more attractive to potential buyers).

The only statement we’ve seen is that the announced products (such as the Starships and Speeders book, the Genesys Keyforge setting book, and the announced L5R sourcebook) will be released, and that the RPGs will be “ongoing.” We just don’t know if “ongoing” means new product will be developed using 100% freelancers or simply that the existing product will remain in print.

L5R books are shipping now. We also have a new wave announcement for xwing coming mid feb. It was a few weeks after the gear book that we got the vehicle book announced...so maybe march?

26 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

L5R books are shipping now. We also have a new wave announcement for xwing coming mid feb

Yeah, X-Wing is the big Star Wars moneymaker for FFG, so I don’t see it ending anytime soon.

27 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It was a few weeks after the gear book that we got the vehicle book announced...so maybe march?

The Upcoming page says Starships and Speeders is due for a February release (with Genesys Keyforge in April).

22 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah, X-Wing is the big Star Wars moneymaker for FFG, so I don’t see it ending anytime soon.

The Upcoming page says Starships and Speeders is due for a February release (with Genesys Keyforge in April).

I meant we might get an announcement for another book in march.

I’m not holding my breath for any new content passed what has already been announced. I’d be pleasantly surprised if something new comes out, but plan to make due with what I have.

And while I managed to accumulate all the books as they came out, many of my RPG group have not yet. So, I do hope we see some reprints. I am also keeping an eye out for those who will bail on the system, opportunities to pick up resources on the second hand market may increase.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I meant we might get an announcement for another book in march.

Ah, gotcha.

2 hours ago, RookiePilot said:

I am also keeping an eye out for those who will bail on the system, opportunities to pick up resources on the second hand market may increase.

This will likely be balanced out by the vultures that want to grab up all of that dead meat to try and sell it for more later.

17 hours ago, Balorna said:

I haven't read every post in this thread; so, if I am repeating anything that has already been said, I am not deliberately trying to step on anyone's toes.

I am only a recent convertee to this game, and the idea that the game might becoming defunct does cause me some concern. I have a long history of falling in love with games that either go out of print or never gains any traction in my local gaming market.

Currently, I only have EotE, and I have recently started playing in a FnD game. It looks like a great game. Even without any other supplement, there is a lot of potential without anything else, but I would like to use FFG as my replacement for WEG. I have no intention of getting rid of WEG or to never play or run it again, but from the looks of it, FFG would allow me to port all of my old ideas from WEG while opening up new possibilities. In the very least, I would like to get the three core books, but I would also like to get all of the career and era books in order to build my universe.

Besides having a strong interest in roleplaying games in general and Star Wars gaming in particularly, I am trained in business analytics. My degree is still incomplete and am not actually working in my field, but I am fully trained. From a purely business position, the game seems to be in the cash cow phase. There is still a lot of market potential, but I would not expect any great leaps in market growth. Consequently, I feel the smart move would be for FFG to slow down develop of new material and concentrate in maintaining the production of older products in order to milk late arrivors like myself while limiting cash outlays.

That being said, most business people are actually quite dumb when it comes to business, and they make dumb decisions, and we are dealing with apparently three business entities with their own managements: LucasArts/Disney, FFG, and Asmodee. To be honest, I understand the connections only contextually. Correct me if I am wrong. FFG has a license from LucasArts/Disney to produce Star Wars games. Asmodee has bought out or is in the process of buying FFG causing the state of the license to come into doubt. The way I see it all three entities have good reasons to stay at the table to work out a deal. For LA/D, the Star Wars line is fizzling. Apart from Mandolorian, most Star Wars ventures are underperforming among the fanbase and many areas for Star Wars merchandising are losing money. This game is one of the few shining lights for Star Wars merchandising, and it would be a benefit to the Star Wars brand for them to work out a deal. For FFG/Asmodee, making a profit in the gaming market is tough. Star Wars is a money maker for them. It would be very beneficial for them to retain the Star Wars brand. That being said, I think that FFG/Asmodee is in position to work a slightly better deal as long as they don't get too greedy, but neither side has a genuine advantage or disadvantage in negotiation in the long run.

The smart move for LA/D is to either allow FFG/A to have more latitude in deciding whether or not to push canon or legends material or to reduce the costs of maintaining the license. I think this would be best for both sides, and I think it would best for the market base.

As I have said, there are a lot business people who are bad at business. The powers that be could make decisions that could kill the line to the detriment of themselves and to the market base. That remains a definite possibility, but there is no reason to give up hope. They could potentially work out a deal that is actually better for everyone. If this is true, the worst crime that is being committed against us is their continued silence on the subject.

Very well said. What made especially FFG's Star Wars RPG so appealing to me and probably to many (see, I didn't say most) fans (but those all hail to Disney bunch) is their focus mainly on the OT and maybe very little Prequels stuff. It is common ground everybody can agree with and thus a very smart move. As long as they keep it that way, everything is fine, balanced and consistent, because I doubt that the narrative dice engine and FFG's approach to force powers was initially designed to cope with the overpowered raising dead/teleport through galaxy/haven't have to learn powers at all (would take the force users trees ad absurdum as force users start with all powers from character creation on without having to spend a single XP).

That way FFG handles the SW RPG makes it so popular that they prevent to run into Hasbro's problems, in selling toys/merch based on the sequel movies. RoS barely managed to crawl above the 1 billion mark, it made just half of what FA did, so there is definitively not all fine and dandy in the Disney's Star Wars land. If FFG manages to stay on the common ground of the OT and maybe some of the other Lucas area stuff (animated clone wars series). I'd love to see some stuff about the Jedi Knight series of computer games for example (I love that jedi academy area), but as that is now all Legends it will not happen. But the current system is very well suited to play in that area and as all (?) career books have been published, they should very well focus on reprinting and a casual adventure/campaign here and there. And maybe some more prequels content along that way. 🤔

4 hours ago, DarthDude said:

RoS barely managed to crawl above the 1 billion mark, it made just half of what FA did, so there is definitively not all fine and dandy in the Disney's Star Wars land.

Star Wars had a worldwide gross of $776 million. Return of the Jedi had a worldwide gross of $475 million. By your logic here, "definitely not all was fine and dandy" in any "Star Wars land." Ever. Or, for that matter, in most any trilogy land.

Pretty sure it's all fine and dandy for LFL and Disney. There's only a handful of films that a billion dollars each year - and most of them are Disney - and The Mandalorian is like the top streaming show and super well received, so yeah. Trilogies pretty much always trend downwards following the first film (which is basically what happened with all the other Star Wars films), except for the MCU, but they're the exception that proves the rule, in most things. Like, I get you have some kind of weird hate boner for Disney and are out to prove they suck at Star Wars or something, but you know...

Personally, there are some of my old WEG products that I would like to see translated into official FFG products like the Elrood, Tapani, and Corporate Sector. I also really liked Pirates and Privateers and Black Sands of Socorro, and I am sure that a lot old school players have their own favorites.

4 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Star Wars had a worldwide gross of $776 million. Return of the Jedi had a worldwide gross of $475 million. By your logic here, "definitely not all was fine and dandy" in any "Star Wars land." Ever. Or, for that matter, in most any trilogy land.

What about adjusting for inflation before comparing box office returns from 40 years ago with today.

The new trilogy made a profit by any metric the studios will continue to make money from Films, TV, licenses etc.

38 minutes ago, Balorna said:

Personally, there are some of my old WEG products that I would like to see translated into official FFG products like the Elrood, Tapani, and Corporate Sector. I also really liked Pirates and Privateers and Black Sands of Socorro, and I am sure that a lot old school players have their own favorites.

I had long hoped that FFG would have put out a third setting/locations book for EotE focused on shadowports. I saw that possiblity approach zero when they went with the era books, and now I see it as even lower.

4 hours ago, Eoen said:

What about adjusting for inflation before comparing box office returns from 40 years ago with today.

The new trilogy made a profit by any metric the studios will continue to make money from Films, TV, licenses etc.

I didn’t compare box office returns from 40 years ago to today. I compared a noticeable drop in box office returns from the first and third movies in a trilogy from 40 years ago to a noticable drop in box office returns from the first and third movies in a trilogy today. The suggestion was made that such a drop today signifies some sort of ambiguous mass dissatisfaction with the property as a whole, while ignoring that a similar drop occurred then (and, speaking more broadly, that such a pattern is typical of most movie trilogies). Adjustment for inflation isn’t terribly relevant in such a comparison.

19 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I had long hoped that FFG would have put out a third setting/locations book for EotE focused on shadowports. I saw that possiblity approach zero when they went with the era books, and now I see it as even lower.

I thought a bastions of the Empire as a good region book for Age. a shadowport book would be good. You could even include Kijimi in it now. Another book like Nexus of power would be good too. I guess we will have a better idea after Starships and Speeders...I havent seen Pirate around in a while. he was always good for saying stuff is being worked on

Let's look at estimated numbers based on the game market (all of these numbers come from ICv2 market intelligence reports and reports from business tracking channels).

Caveat: FFG is a private company and does not report P&L except when seeking funding.

The last P&L for FFG I have reports for is 2015 at $21.5 million revenue. In 2015 the Hobby game market was sitting at $1.19 billion. The RPG market for 2015 was $35 million of that $1.19 billion. That gives you an idea of how the RPG market compares to cards, minis, and board games.

The 2019 market is $65 million for RPGs and $1.49 billion for the hobby game market.

The current estimated revenue for FFG in 2019 is $27 million. About $1.47 million comes from RPGs. This is profitable. RPGs had a good year last year. But only in the area of known brands. New products did less well. Star Wars was in the top five RPGs for the whole year, but was mostly at the number five spot. D&D and Pathfinder own the top two spots. Vampire and Shadowrun 6E fought it out for positions three and four. Both had new editions and that was expected. When Q4 numbers come in we'll probably see Star Wars back at the number four spot.

What does all that mean? Star Wars is profitable, but the associated licensing fees always reduce the overall profitability. X-Wing, Legion, and Armada are doing well for them. Business sense says that FFG/Asmodee were looking at Q4 projections and they didn't have the numbers they wanted. The easiest way to impact the bottom line is to layoff the staff. The staff costs salary (getting paid no matter how much they produce) and benefits (PTO, insurance, infrastucture, and other associated expenses). It's a terrible way to go, but the fastest impact to that bottom line is layoffs. You immediately recoup all the monies going into staff. You hire freelancers to deliver the product and keep the line. Catalyst Games has been producing Shadowrun and all their other product lines this way for years.

The line will continue. FFG said as much, Asmodee said as much, and the market intelligence says it makes sense. They'll probably produce a book a quarter and maybe something big for Origins and Gencon (which has been there model for years now).

Unless the sales drop below the market average, producing the product line with freelancers makes more business sense than canceling it when you're already paying for a license you're using for your more profitable miniatures and board game lines.

17 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:

Let's look at estimated numbers based on the game market (all of these numbers come from ICv2 market intelligence reports and reports from business tracking channels).

Caveat: FFG is a private company and does not report P&L except when seeking funding.

The last P&L for FFG I have reports for is 2015 at $21.5 million revenue. In 2015 the Hobby game market was sitting at $1.19 billion. The RPG market for 2015 was $35 million of that $1.19 billion. That gives you an idea of how the RPG market compares to cards, minis, and board games.

The 2019 market is $65 million for RPGs and $1.49 billion for the hobby game market.

The current estimated revenue for FFG in 2019 is $27 million. About $1.47 million comes from RPGs. This is profitable. RPGs had a good year last year. But only in the area of known brands. New products did less well. Star Wars was in the top five RPGs for the whole year, but was mostly at the number five spot. D&D and Pathfinder own the top two spots. Vampire and Shadowrun 6E fought it out for positions three and four. Both had new editions and that was expected. When Q4 numbers come in we'll probably see Star Wars back at the number four spot.

What does all that mean? Star Wars is profitable, but the associated licensing fees always reduce the overall profitability. X-Wing, Legion, and Armada are doing well for them. Business sense says that FFG/Asmodee were looking at Q4 projections and they didn't have the numbers they wanted. The easiest way to impact the bottom line is to layoff the staff. The staff costs salary (getting paid no matter how much they produce) and benefits (PTO, insurance, infrastucture, and other associated expenses). It's a terrible way to go, but the fastest impact to that bottom line is layoffs. You immediately recoup all the monies going into staff. You hire freelancers to deliver the product and keep the line. Catalyst Games has been producing Shadowrun and all their other product lines this way for years.

The line will continue. FFG said as much, Asmodee said as much, and the market intelligence says it makes sense. They'll probably produce a book a quarter and maybe something big for Origins and Gencon (which has been there model for years now).

Unless the sales drop below the market average, producing the product line with freelancers makes more business sense than canceling it when you're already paying for a license you're using for your more profitable miniatures and board game lines.

Also the more profitable X-wing and Armada lines cover the cost of the license making the RPG line easier to support..

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Also the more profitable X-wing and Armada lines cover the cost of the license making the RPG line easier to support..

Exactly. X-Wing is sitting at the number four spot for Non-Collectible Miniatures (which is a $285 million piece of the pie) and Legion is climbing back to the number five spot fast.

53 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:

Let's look at estimated numbers based on the game market (all of these numbers come from ICv2 market intelligence reports and reports from business tracking channels).

Caveat: FFG is a private company and does not report P&L except when seeking funding.

The last P&L for FFG I have reports for is 2015 at $21.5 million revenue. In 2015 the Hobby game market was sitting at $1.19 billion. The RPG market for 2015 was $35 million of that $1.19 billion. That gives you an idea of how the RPG market compares to cards, minis, and board games.

The 2019 market is $65 million for RPGs and $1.49 billion for the hobby game market.

The current estimated revenue for FFG in 2019 is $27 million. About $1.47 million comes from RPGs. This is profitable. RPGs had a good year last year. But only in the area of known brands. New products did less well. Star Wars was in the top five RPGs for the whole year, but was mostly at the number five spot. D&D and Pathfinder own the top two spots. Vampire and Shadowrun 6E fought it out for positions three and four. Both had new editions and that was expected. When Q4 numbers come in we'll probably see Star Wars back at the number four spot.

What does all that mean? Star Wars is profitable, but the associated licensing fees always reduce the overall profitability. X-Wing, Legion, and Armada are doing well for them. Business sense says that FFG/Asmodee were looking at Q4 projections and they didn't have the numbers they wanted. The easiest way to impact the bottom line is to layoff the staff. The staff costs salary (getting paid no matter how much they produce) and benefits (PTO, insurance, infrastucture, and other associated expenses). It's a terrible way to go, but the fastest impact to that bottom line is layoffs. You immediately recoup all the monies going into staff. You hire freelancers to deliver the product and keep the line. Catalyst Games has been producing Shadowrun and all their other product lines this way for years.

The line will continue. FFG said as much, Asmodee said as much, and the market intelligence says it makes sense. They'll probably produce a book a quarter and maybe something big for Origins and Gencon (which has been there model for years now).

Unless the sales drop below the market average, producing the product line with freelancers makes more business sense than canceling it when you're already paying for a license you're using for your more profitable miniatures and board game lines.

so I am guessing the layoffs are because they are looking to sell Asmodee and so want to pump their profit margin. and will likely hire an RPG department after the sale. The RPG department is easy to pause as most of the stuff in the pipeline already past the stage where the RPG dept does anything.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

so I am guessing the layoffs are because they are looking to sell Asmodee and so want to pump their profit margin. and will likely hire an RPG department after the sale. The RPG department is easy to pause as most of the stuff in the pipeline already past the stage where the RPG dept does anything.

Is PAI selling them? They just just bought them in October 2018. Asmodee is playing in Hasbro's league now.

1 minute ago, Mistervimes said:

Is PAI selling them? They just just bought them in October 2018. Asmodee is playing in Hasbro's league now.

I have heard that Asmodee is being sold...

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I have heard that Asmodee is being sold...

That was last summer I think.

9 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:

Is PAI selling them? They just just bought them in October 2018. Asmodee is playing in Hasbro's league now.

I doubt it.

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I have heard that Asmodee is being sold...

Could be. PAI Partners bought Asmodee from Eurazeo in October of 2018 for around €1.2 billion (about $2.16 billion at the time.) If PAI is looking for a buyer it's going to sell for a chunk.