8 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Meh. Poe wasn't even supposed to be in it. He was supposed to die in The Force Awakens. Abrams adding an extra main character complicated so much about the sequals.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Because they had no plan at all. Which didnt work out so well.

Eh, characters meant to be killed or minor find themselves upgraded all the time, whether there’s a plan or not.

Worf was supposed to be a glorified background extra to show how different the TNG era was from TOS, who became not only a regular character on two series, but a fan favorite.

Spike was going to be killed by Angel in the second season of Buffy, but got a reprieve, became a regular a couple of seasons later, and, like Worf above, transferred over to the spin-off when the “mothership” show ended.

Coulson’s big screen death in Avengers was supposed to stick after being introduced in Iron Man without initially having a name in the script. Then came Agents of SHIELD.

Nebula was originally going to meet her maker in the first Guardians of the Galaxy. How different would Infinity War and especially Endgame be without Karen Gillan’s incredible performance?

Going to Abrams, Jack was supposed to die in the pilot of Lost.

Carol Hathaway’s death was originally the kickoff of ER.

The list can go on.

It can be done, but the challenge is in fleshing out that character who was intended to just fill a small story need. Thus came Poe’s “Big Dam(eron) Hero has to learn to be a leader” story.

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Because they had no plan at all. Which didnt work out so well.

Supposedly Abrams had a plan, and Johnson trashed it (which is plausible), but yeah, there was no unifying senior executive producer over all of it keeping things from going off the rails. When you have an established IP and different directors and producers involved, you need someone like that. According to the WSJ, Kennedy was trying to do something like this, but I get the feeling she was better at ensuring the new movies all felt Star Wars (which I think she succeeded there) than making sure the overall story still flowed.

At this point I'm kinda of the opinion that while TFA worked as far as it's specific time of release, as part of a greater series of films it kinda set the new trilogy up to never be as good as it could have. It was too much of reimagining + EU to go anywhere new. Johnson attempted to do what he saw as course correcting, forcing the series to go somewhere new by taking pretty much every reddit fan theory and tossing it into a burn-barrel, but between how Abrams ended TFA, and how at this point a quasi-reimagining of ESB was expected, Johnson wasn't in a good position to do so. Now Abrams gets brought back in, which is itself a mistake as I'm sure he had some emotions about how Johnson trashed his vision, and Abrams again fell back on he previous concept: Reimagine RotJ and pairing it with an amalgamation of EU content.

But this all illustrates the fan divide. If you're from the camp that wanted to see the EU on the bring screen, Abrams did pretty much that. If you're from the camp that was ready to try other things, Johnson certainly went there.

14 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

but I get the feeling she was better at ensuring the new movies all felt Star Wars (which I think she succeeded there) than making sure the overall story still flowed.

I just want to say that I agree with this sentiment.

24 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

Supposedly Abrams had a plan, and Johnson trashed it

Trevorrow is said to have confirmed that Palpatine was, in fact, not part of his Episode IX story. So if Abrams had a plan, either he didn’t share it, or it was a, “Here’s where I’d go if I were doing all three, but I’m not, so have fun and do what you want,” conversation. Terrio has, in interviews, talked about his reasoning behind making Rey a Palpatine, meaning that all came about for IX. So, any talk about Abrams having a plan reminds me of something:

For years, the opening of the Battlestar Galactica reboot told us that the Cylons had a plan. When the series was done, Ronald D Moore confirmed that there was no plan (on the creators’ side), but it just sounded nice and ominous to say there was one.

25 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

But this all illustrates the fan divide. If you're from the camp that wanted to see the EU on the bring screen, Abrams did pretty much that. If you're from the camp that was ready to try other things, Johnson certainly went there.

Then there’s me, who just wanted to see some enjoyable Star Wars movies. And, for the most part, that’s exactly what I got.

22 hours ago, Daeglan said:

That is how the movie felt.

Which does not necessary means it's true, but it certainly felt sometimes that way.

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

But this all illustrates the fan divide. If you're from the camp that wanted to see the EU on the bring screen, Abrams did pretty much that.

But did he do it as well as people wanted? Filoni is doing very, very awesome things with legends, while introducing tons of new stuff as well. There is no fan divide about him either. Not even in hardcore fan regions of the internet like this one.

"Search your feelings. You know it to be true..."

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

Supposedly Abrams had a plan, and Johnson trashed it (which is plausible), but yeah, there was no unifying senior executive producer over all of it keeping things from going off the rails. When you have an established IP and different directors and producers involved, you need someone like that. According to the WSJ, Kennedy was trying to do something like this, but I get the feeling she was better at ensuring the new movies all felt Star Wars (which I think she succeeded there) than making sure the overall story still flowed.

At this point I'm kinda of the opinion that while TFA worked as far as it's specific time of release, as part of a greater series of films it kinda set the new trilogy up to never be as good as it could have. It was too much of reimagining + EU to go anywhere new. Johnson attempted to do what he saw as course correcting, forcing the series to go somewhere new by taking pretty much every reddit fan theory and tossing it into a burn-barrel, but between how Abrams ended TFA, and how at this point a quasi-reimagining of ESB was expected, Johnson wasn't in a good position to do so. Now Abrams gets brought back in, which is itself a mistake as I'm sure he had some emotions about how Johnson trashed his vision, and Abrams again fell back on he previous concept: Reimagine RotJ and pairing it with an amalgamation of EU content.

But this all illustrates the fan divide. If you're from the camp that wanted to see the EU on the bring screen, Abrams did pretty much that. If you're from the camp that was ready to try other things, Johnson certainly went there.

I dont think anyone had a plan. But i think if it had had the same director it would have worked better. It felt like Rian wanted to d ok so.ethi g different but then he backed off. As by the end it felt like nothing changed really.

I doubt that there's material to make the movie not terrible. They might include some explanations cut (like the Dyad thing mentioned in one of the supplement books that was in the leaks but not the movie), but all the Disney movies are terrible and there's no way to make any of them decent, let alone good, by just using cut footage.

Abrams has repeatedly shown he can't do endings, with or without Johnson getting in the way. I don't see why it would be any different if he was given the whole trilogy. This whole thing of blame game reeks of everyone in charge finger pointing to avoid being assigned blame, not willing to admit the whole place is terrible.

And there’s the “All Diznee is horrible because Diznee” contingent heard from.... /shrug

2 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Trevorrow is said to have confirmed that Palpatine was, in fact, not part of his Episode IX story. So if Abrams had a plan, either he didn’t share it, or it was a, “Here’s where I’d go if I were doing all three, but I’m not, so have fun and do what you want,” conversation. Terrio has, in interviews, talked about his reasoning behind making Rey a Palpatine, meaning that all came about for IX. So, any talk about Abrams having a plan reminds me of something:

For years, the opening of the Battlestar Galactica reboot told us that the Cylons had a plan. When the series was done, Ronald D Moore confirmed that there was no plan (on the creators’ side), but it just sounded nice and ominous to say there was one.

How big, how far, and how much changed from the plan I don't know, but yes, Abrams did give Johnson a writeup of at least how he thought EP IIX was going to go. Needless to say Johnson didn't go with it.

How much Abrams salvaged and how much he created fresh for IX we'll likely never know.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

But did he do it as well as people wanted? Filoni is doing very, very awesome things with legends, while introducing tons of new stuff as well. There is no fan divide about him either. Not even in hardcore fan regions of the internet like this one.

Sorry but I can't let you make a false statement like that.

I like Filoni and a lot of the things he has done, but he has on several occasions divided and even upset Star Wars fans. I remember the awful rage back when they changed Asajj Ventress's origin, specifically changing her species from Rattataki to some Night Sister/Zabrak hybrid thing. Speaking of the Night Sisters people flipped out about the way they used the force and how it made Star Wars "too fantasy", then in Rebel's you had the world between worlds stuff that turned a lot of people off. Also a lot of people say their least favorite episodes of the Mandalorian are the ones he directed and many going so far as to say he shouldn't direct any in season two!

So yeah, while he has never angered the fans as much as the prequels or sequels, he has also never done any of his more divisive ideas in any of the movies either.

17 minutes ago, unicornpuncher said:

Sorry but I can't let you make a false statement like that.

I like Filoni and a lot of the things he has done, but he has on several occasions divided and even upset Star Wars fans. I remember the awful rage back when they changed Asajj Ventress's origin, specifically changing her species from Rattataki to some Night Sister/Zabrak hybrid thing. Speaking of the Night Sisters people flipped out about the way they used the force and how it made Star Wars "too fantasy", then in Rebel's you had the world between worlds stuff that turned a lot of people off. Also a lot of people say their least favorite episodes of the Mandalorian are the ones he directed and many going so far as to say he shouldn't direct any in season two!

So yeah, while he has never angered the fans as much as the prequels or sequels, he has also never done any of his more divisive ideas in any of the movies either.

Also, let's never forget... or maybe we should try to instead...

And the fact that his Mandalorian episodes were the worst of the bunch (by far).

8 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Also, let's never forget... or maybe we should try to instead...

But we did not divide community about it. They just did not like helicopter lightsabers. Called it stupid, made some stupid explanation how it can work, pointed out that it is a kids show and that's it. I am sure, the kids loved it, but I would hardly call that a divide in the community. 😉
Meanwhile TLJ, best star wars movie of all time, created a so much hate that we have seen tons of harassment. death threats and other really nasty stuff. And TROS seem to generate similar things, even when the degree is smaller.

And btw, the preview thumbnail was promising a robot chicken skit. I must admit, I was disappointed.

9 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

How big, how far, and how much changed from the plan I don't know, but yes, Abrams did give Johnson a writeup of at least how he thought EP IIX was going to go. Needless to say Johnson didn't go with it.

How much Abrams salvaged and how much he created fresh for IX we'll likely never know.

We don't exactly know that, do we?

We don't know what was in Abram's outline. We do have reasons to assume it was rather different from what episode IX ended up being. Abrams is not exactly known as the man who makes a plan and then sticks to it. One of the biggest criticisms that has followed him through his career is that he has no attention for longterm planning, and that he is too fond of setting up mysteries without giving a thought towards resolving those mysteries, leaving that to future writers. He was originally only plannning to be involved with The Force Awakens.

And I don't think Abrams in the end even had that much to say about what Episode IX was going to be.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

But we did not divide community about it. They just did not like helicopter lightsabers. Called it stupid, made some stupid explanation how it can work, pointed out that it is a kids show and that's it. I am sure, the kids loved it, but I would hardly call that a divide in the community. 😉
Meanwhile TLJ, best star wars movie of all time, created a so much hate that we have seen tons of harassment. death threats and other really nasty stuff. And TROS seem to generate similar things, even when the degree is smaller.

And btw, the preview thumbnail was promising a robot chicken skit. I must admit, I was disappointed.

True that it can't really divide when it is universally hated.... but is that better than a 50/50 love/hate?

I was just pointing out that Dave Filoni is not the 'Never-do-no-wrong-always-respecting-lore-guy' that some claims him to be. Just imagine if the SaberCopter scene or something similar was in Episode 8, the outrage it would have done! Clone Wars was also not well received at first, it's only later that people started to take interest.

And to be clear, I love the guy. Loved Clone Wars and Rebels and am now waiting for Clone Wars season 7. Ahsoka is one of my favorite character and love how much it made me care about Anakin. And Maul duel with Obi-Wan in Rebels is among my top 3 lightsaber duel in Star Wars.

53 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

We don't exactly know that, do we?

We don't know what was in Abram's outline. We do have reasons to assume it was rather different from what episode IX ended up being. Abrams is not exactly known as the man who makes a plan and then sticks to it. One of the biggest criticisms that has followed him through his career is that he has no attention for longterm planning, and that he is too fond of setting up mysteries without giving a thought towards resolving those mysteries, leaving that to future writers. He was originally only plannning to be involved with The Force Awakens.

And I don't think Abrams in the end even had that much to say about what Episode IX was going to be.

The existence of the outline was reported, and honestly that's not much of a stretch considering everyone knew they were making three movies and an outline doesn't require a lot of work. What was in that outline we'll likely never know, or not for another 30+ years when it's all ancient history and they decide the documentary about it will make the monies.

I don't think comparing an intentional trilogy to 00's television is fair though. In a trilogy you know going in you've got 6-9 hours to say everything you're going to say.

00 era tv you had 20ish hours per season to fill, getting 4-5 seasons was the real goal due to how syndication works, and you almost never knew which season was the last one. So it makes sense to leave certain mysteries unsolved and work it out later, as that's a reason for fans to demand another season, but no sense spending energy resolving it until you have the budget.

Lost admittedly took it to extremes, and iirc they had to mess with the writers strike to boot. With Lost (and star wars for that matter) I also think a lot of fans were looking for mysteries and explanations that were never really intended to be addressed anyway...

2 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

The existence of the outline was reported, and honestly that's not much of a stretch considering everyone knew they were making three movies and an outline doesn't require a lot of work. What was in that outline we'll likely never know, or not for another 30+ years when it's all ancient history and they decide the documentary about it will make the monies.

I don't think comparing an intentional trilogy to 00's television is fair though. In a trilogy you know going in you've got 6-9 hours to say everything you're going to say.

00 era tv you had 20ish hours per season to fill, getting 4-5 seasons was the real goal due to how syndication works, and you almost never knew which season was the last one. So it makes sense to leave certain mysteries unsolved and work it out later, as that's a reason for fans to demand another season, but no sense spending energy resolving it until you have the budget.

Lost admittedly took it to extremes, and iirc they had to mess with the writers strike to boot. With Lost (and star wars for that matter) I also think a lot of fans were looking for mysteries and explanations that were never really intended to be addressed anyway...

The existence of an outline being reported gives you exactly zero information towards an outline actually existing. Now, there almost certainly was an outline, but Abrams probably didn't write a word of it. You just do not go to JJ Abrams for outlines.

Having absolute, undeniable proof of an outline existing gives you zero information of what was actually in it, nor does it give you information that Rian Johnson ignored it. It probably existed, and Johnson almost certainly followed it. The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi don't feel like films that contradict each other to me anymore than A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

And no, it doesn't make sense that if the entire point of your show is the mysteries, that none of the writers knows anything more about the solution than the audience does. That's bad writing, no matter how many seasons you have to fill. For all you know you're gettin only one season, or less.

Even with a definite endpoint in mind and getting to that very endpoint, you can muck it up.

Going to TV again, there’s How I Met Your Mother. In the second season, with no idea if they’d make it to a third or beyond, the producers filmed all of Ted’s future kids’ reaction shots then (so, if the show lasted years, they wouldn’t visibly age), including their portion of the finale. The endpoint that they filmed in season 2 had [SPOILER ALERT FOR A SHOW THAT ENDED YEARS AGO] the kids realizing that Ted loved Robin and encouraged him to go after her, as their mother had been dead for years. The problem was, the show lasted 9 seasons. In that time, they established quite clearly that Ted and Robin made for a horrible couple. And when they introduced the mother in the final season, they created and cast a character that the audience immediately liked and understood how she was perfect for Ted. Then, in the final episode told us about her illness and death, then sent him off to Robin. They committed themselves to an ending that the characters grew beyond.

The response from the audience was so loud and near-universal in its displeasure that the home video release of the final season gives the option to watch the finale as aired, or recut to give Ted and Tracy their happy ending.

As I mentioned upthread, I’d wager any outline or plan Abrams had amounted to, “Here’s where I’d go if I were doing all three, but I’m not.” And with Terrio’s statements about his reasoning for making Rey a Palpatine (and Terrio not being brought on board until IX), it’s probably safe to conclude that, for example, one of the most controversial aspects of IX wasn’t part of the Cylon plan. (The Cylons didn’t have a plan. 😜)

26 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

[SPOILER ALERT FOR A SHOW THAT ENDED YEARS AGO]

Very much appreciated, actually. Thanks.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

The existence of an outline being reported gives you exactly zero information towards an outline actually existing.

Entertainment news site did publish articles about how JJ had an outline, or writeup or something saying more or less what direction thought things should go (which Johnson had no requirement to follow) and that Johnson did something different (which isn't uncommon in Movie Sequels directed by different people). Mark Hamil said in an interview that the ending of TFA didn't match the beginning of TLJ and he made a call to Abrams, who confirmed the changes had been made to TFA ending to ensure they matched.

That does line up pretty well. Now if you want to believe them or not...

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Having absolute, undeniable proof of an outline existing gives you zero information of what was actually in it,

I've agreed with that from the beginning.

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

It probably existed, and Johnson almost certainly followed it.

What I've read says he didn't, nor do I really feel there's a serious issue there. After all sequels by different people often don't follow what the original director "would have done." Super common and a bit of a "so what?" in my book.

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi don't feel like films that contradict each other to me anymore than A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

I never said they did contradict each other. Plenty of sequels out there by different people that don't contradict the preceding film. Even RoS doesn't really contradict anything in TLJ, though it doesn't always do a good job of covering those points on screen.

2 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

And no, it doesn't make sense that if the entire point of your show is the mysteries, that none of the writers knows anything more about the solution than the audience does.

In some cases yes, in others no.

But that's not really where I was going with that anyway. I'm more pointing out that the existing fan operations these days get stupid about mysteries and "plot holes." Every scene picked apart, every line overanalyzed, and stuff that really doesn't have to matter gets obsessed over. Fans look for mysteries where the writers never intended any to exist, and scrap together theories, when I kinda get the feeling it would be like trying to explain the specifics of Oz or Wonderland...

In some cases it is indeed bad writing though. BSG essentially admitting they had no idea what the heck they were doing plotline to plotline being the best example.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

As I mentioned upthread, I’d wager any outline or plan Abrams had amounted to, “Here’s where I’d go if I were doing all three, but I’m not.” And with Terrio’s statements about his reasoning for making Rey a Palpatine (and Terrio not being brought on board until IX), it’s probably safe to conclude that, for example, one of the most controversial aspects of IX wasn’t part of the Cylon plan. (The Cylons didn’t have a plan. 😜)

Exactly!

Any GM knows that a campaign outline is often just that, an outline. Stuff changes. Have a different GM come in and cover 1/3 of the campaign, and that goes double.

On 1/9/2020 at 8:46 AM, Red Castle said:

... And Maul duel with Obi-Wan in Rebels is among my top 3 lightsaber duel in Star Wars.

So much this. The whole episode I was waiting for it and then they take their stances and I'm like "Oh yeah, here it comes" then it ends and I was "What?!? That was it.....Wait....That was AWESOME!"
rewind-watch-rewind-watch

36 minutes ago, Varlie said:

So much this. The whole episode I was waiting for it and then they take their stances and I'm like "Oh yeah, here it comes" then it ends and I was "What?!? That was it.....Wait....That was AWESOME!"
rewind-watch-rewind-watch

Yeah, I thought it had a big Kurosawa vibe, like everything is going on inside, both opponent analysing the other and then putting everything in their one move. I loved how it mirrored Qui-Gon and Maul duel in Phantom Menace, showing that Kenobi learned from the defeat of his old master. And then when he hold Maul in his arms, again the last words of Maul mirroring the last words of Qui-Gon to him. Very poetic.

I always prefered duels that had a lot of emotional and internal conflict over flashy ones. That's why my personal top 3 would look like this:

1-Luke Vs Kylo (Episode 8 )

2-Obi-Wan Vs Maul (Rebels season 3)

3-Ahsoka Vs Vader (Rebels season 2)

Battling for third position: Luke Vs Vader (Episode 6)

On 1/9/2020 at 5:46 AM, Red Castle said:

I was just pointing out that Dave Filoni is not the 'Never-do-no-wrong-always-respecting-lore-guy' that some claims him to be. Just imagine if the SaberCopter scene or something similar was in Episode 8, the outrage it would have done! Clone Wars was also not well received at first, it's only later that people started to take interest.

I'm a Filoni fan and enjoyed The Clone Wars and Rebels. I've had some eye-rolling moments with his stuff occasionally, but I've never understood the level of personalized anger and hate a lot of fans get up to. I have leveled some pointed negative criticisms of both Abrams and Johnson's work on the sequels, but I don't hate them and I don't even hate their Star Wars films. They were fun and exciting, even if I consider them an unnecessary and messy postscript. I simply don't buy into the absolutist you must totally love or completely hate a director-movie-story tenor of these internecine fan debates. Its boorish, childish, and quite frankly, belligerently stupid. With Filoni I remind myself that he is very much Lucas' protoge and Lucas strongly maintains that stories are primarily intended for kids and young adults. As much as we grown ups may love them, The Clone Wars and Rebels are primarily targeting a younger demographic. Young people don't groan over copter-sabers the way adults do. They say "Wow!"