3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Then there is the fact in many ways the central theme of TLJ was kind of insulting to many fans.

The idea that anyone can step up without having to come from a special bloodline was insulting?

Just now, Nytwyng said:

The idea that anyone can step up without having to come from a special bloodline was insulting?

No. The idea that much of what we love should just be thrown away is insulting. The idea that the questions we had should just be thrown away is insulting. Which is kind of the theme of TLJ

The theme of TLJ is growth through failure.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No. The idea that much of what we love should just be thrown away is insulting. The idea that the questions we had should just be thrown away is insulting. Which is kind of the theme of TLJ

Ah, the thesis of the antagonist, while the protagonist(s) did exactly the opposite, with one of them specifically voicing the philosophy of saving what we love rather than fighting what we hate.

That’s like saying the theme of Infinity War is “murder half the population.”

14 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Then they need some thicker skin.

Or the writing was done in a poor manner that was sirespectful to the fans and rubbed their noses in that insult

Yeah, that’s all you.

Luke’s trip to Cloud City was pointless! He left hos training and didn’t achieve his goal of helping his friends. In fact he failed so badly that he lost his hand and had to be saved by those he wanted to help himself.
Horrible character on a pointless side quest!

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Ah, the thesis of the antagonist, while the protagonist(s) did exactly the opposite, with one of them specifically voicing the philosophy of saving what we love rather than fighting what we hate.

That’s like saying the theme of Infinity War is “murder half the population.”

But if the way you write that message rubs fans the wrong way you dont get the desired result. You instead offend them.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

But if the way you write that message rubs fans the wrong way you dont get the desired result. You instead offend them.

However, your inaccurately stating the antagonist’s philosophy as the movie’s central theme, and thus what “many fans” were allegedly offended by would indicate that it was not the way that the movie’s theme was presented that they had a problem with, but rather those viewers’ misunderstanding of what the theme was, and proceeding from that incorrect conclusion.

If I believe the theme of Infinity War is that genocide is the answer to our problems, I’m going to be drawing some incorrect conclusions about what the movie is saying (especially since Thanos accomplishes his goal).

12 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Luke’s trip to Cloud City was pointless! He left hos training and didn’t achieve his goal of helping his friends. In fact he failed so badly that he lost his hand and had to be saved by those he wanted to help himself.
Horrible character on a pointless side quest!

The difference is that the writing was better in empire. The difference is the character chouces made more sense. The Last Jedi has fundemental core problems in it's writing. The behavior of the Admiral doesnt make sense. The fact that Rose knows about hyperspace tracking but that information is never given to the Admiral doesnt make sense. The fact they stay on the cruisers doesnt make sense. If they can all get on the shuttles to escape to Crait why did they wait to do so? The fact that Finn and Rose can go to Cantonica makes going to Crait dumb and wasteful of personel. Rose can leave but dont send a message to get help doesnt make sense.

I disagree with all those statements. And the movie has a clear answer to all those issues. Whether you like them or not that is a different matter all together and something we can keep repeating over and over again.
Your initial statement that a side quest was useless for the story because it failed is what I replied to. I am not interested in having a discussion in which the goalposts are moved like they are here.

Well Rose was (is?) an First Order agent. Think about it, she was actively preventing people from fleeing until she found out that they knew about the tracking (she probably developed). She joined Finn on a mission to save the day and then convinces him to ignore their main slicer and get her cohort who she could blame for the betrayal. Then, finally, right when Finn was about to take out the cannon, she prevents it so that the First Order can take out the Resistance (in the name of love).

Leia probably sensed it in TROS and kept her close to her for watching

As far as fan theories go, it’s no wilder than “Darth Jar-Jar.” 🤣

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I disagree with all those statements. And the movie has a clear answer to all those issues. Whether you like them or not that is a different matter all together and something we can keep repeating over and over again.
Your initial statement that a side quest was useless for the story because it failed is what I replied to. I am not interested in having a discussion in which the goalposts are moved like they are here.

It was useless because it didnt make sense at all. I mean they could jump away from the fleet and they didn't A. Call for the help, B. get the needed fuel, C. Didn't get the person they specifically were sent for and instead grabbed the first random person that claimed they could do what was needed then let that person out of their sight allowing them to be betrayed. D. Why didnt they tell Holdo about the hyperspace tracking? these character decisions dont make sense at all.

You are right. The didn’t make sense. To you.

Again all these things are explained in the movie you hate so much because of it.
Apparently you a. weren’t paying too much attention b. It went over your head c. You are mimicking talking points from others d. You are being disingenuous.
Let’s drop it.

19 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It was useless because it didnt make sense at all. I mean they could jump away from the fleet and they didn't A. Call for the help, B. get the needed fuel, C. Didn't get the person they specifically were sent for and instead grabbed the first random person that claimed they could do what was needed then let that person out of their sight allowing them to be betrayed. D. Why didnt they tell Holdo about the hyperspace tracking? these character decisions dont make sense at all.

At the risk of threadlock (as seems to happen to all threads that digress into TLJ back-and-forth), and despite these points having been discussed ad nauseum....

A - Rose, Finn, and Poe (especially Poe) were focused on allowing the fleet’s escape in the face of new tracking technology.

B - Get the fuel in what? Since they were trying to avoid Holdo’s notice, they had to leave in something far too small to bring back any amount of fuel that would make a difference to capital ships.

C - They were heading directly to the Master Codebreaker when they were arrested. While arrested, they encountered “DJ.” They were in a time crunch, he appeared (correctly) to have the necessary skills. Likewise, they didn’t “let him out of their sight” to be betrayed. As he explicitly states in the movie, “We got caught. I cut a deal.” Should they have asked the First Order to keep him nearby so they could keep an eye on him?

D - Rose wanted to. Poe, with his bruised ego, didn’t allow her to. Unlike Poe, she followed the orders of a superior officer.

After having watched episode 9 three times now, I must say I have no issues left. Perhaps it's the Disney brain-washing treatment of flashing lights, and JJ's lens flares, but I like to think that - due to the film's intense and hectic speed - watching it a few times helps you tie it more together, both the films own story, as well as its ties to the other 8 films. The film is less overwhelming to watch the third time.

A "director's cut" could be interesting, I'd certainly watch it, just like I watched the special edition of the OT. I have no need for it though.

Oh, that reminds me. She intentionally parked on the beach so they could be arrest to meet DJ. More proof of FO shenanigans

15 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

they killed whatever minuscule bit of curiosity I may have had about the show

Too bad, you're missing out (at least seasons 1-3...4 I'm still not sure about). It may not be as "intellectual" as the toxic fans might pretend, but it's dark and witty for sure.

2 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

After having watched episode 9 three times now, I must say I have no issues left. Perhaps it's the Disney brain-washing treatment of flashing lights, and JJ's lens flares, but I like to think that - due to the film's intense and hectic speed - watching it a few times helps you tie it more together, both the films own story, as well as its ties to the other 8 films. The film is less overwhelming to watch the third time.

A "director's cut" could be interesting, I'd certainly watch it, just like I watched the special edition of the OT. I have no need for it though.

Yeah, I didn’t hate it. And, I enjoyed it more after my second viewing. There are still a couple of elements I didn’t like. For example, while I understand the creative thought process behind the Rey reveal, it still falls flat for me and undercuts the power of her arc in the previous movie. For my fanboy wish list, the Resistance fleet reveal had potential to bring even more major fan service to it, and be the movie’s “Portals” scene, but I can get why they didn’t, as well, so that’s definitely a minor quibble.

All things said and done, while I don’t know exactly where I’d rank it among all 11 movies, I know it’s #3 for the sequel trilogy for me. Depending on what a director’s cut would bring, theres no telling what sort of difference it might make to my final take on it.

2 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Too bad, you're missing out (at least seasons 1-3...4 I'm still not sure about). It may not be as "intellectual" as the toxic fans might pretend, but it's dark and witty for sure.

Nah, I’ve seen/know enough about it to know it’s not for me. Granted, I’m sure some of that is colored by my perception of the public face of its fandom, but there’s just no draw for me.

May season 4 turn out well for you.

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah, I didn’t hate it. And, I enjoyed it more after my second viewing. There are still a couple of elements I didn’t like. For example, while I understand the creative thought process behind the Rey reveal, it still falls flat for me and undercuts the power of her arc in the previous movie. For my fanboy wish list, the Resistance fleet reveal had potential to bring even more major fan service to it, and be the movie’s “Portals” scene, but I can get why they didn’t, as well, so that’s definitely a minor quibble.

All things said and done, while I don’t know exactly where I’d rank it among all 11 movies, I know it’s #3 for the sequel trilogy for me. Depending on what a director’s cut would bring, theres no telling what sort of difference it might make to my final take on it.

My main issue is the taking of the Skywalker name, rather than something more genre fitting (as I see it), which would be establishing the Way of the Skywalkers or an Order of Skywalkers, or something ... which I'll probably do in my own games anyway. But I get the reason for taking the name, and its fine, but just fine in my book.

Her being a Palps, yeah, no, it makes room for a sithcom or a soap opera, and it makes it all even more like the soap opera Lucas talked about, but instead of only one family, it's about two families. And it plays well into her taking the Skywalker name. The reveal? Yeah, meh, I don't care. It was never that important to me. I'd prefer her to be a nobody, but I get why they make it even larger, the important thing here is that she's mostly, and mainly, a lonely nobody until the very end of the story. She stood on her own merits and flaws until this point, which makes it strong I think. Strong enough. To me .

I'd rank it under TLJ, but at least equal or above TFA, within the ST. Among all the 9 saga films, it's number ... err.... 4 or 5. Depending on my mood.

3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

The idea that anyone can step up without having to come from a special bloodline was insulting?

Well, then you shouldn't pretend to call RoS the final chapter of the Skywaöker Saga, by having the main protagnist/Jesus character having her adopted herself into the Skywalker family by just hushing "Rey...Skywalker".

It should have been a stand alone film from the start on, but in no way a finale of the Skywalker Saga. The Skywalker Saga ended with RotJ. And "many fans" (c) TM seem to see it that way, as it looks now, that RoS will not even reach the box office TLJ made and will barely crawl above the $1 billion. Wich (TLJ) already made more than $700mio less than TFA. Seems like this "vocal minority" (c) TM makes up half the revenue lost from TFA to RoS. 😁

Their main fault was to shoehorn in a third Skywalker trilogy instead of making a fresh start with new heroes without any relation to the old icons (and by sticking losely to the canon Holdo maneuver and force resurection wise). That might have worked. Like Mandalorian, which just plays in the Star Wars universe but has no ties into the OT and Prequels (yet at least).

5 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Well, then you shouldn't pretend to call RoS the final chapter of the Skywaöker Saga, by having the main protagnist/Jesus character having her adopted herself into the Skywalker family by just hushing "Rey...Skywalker".

It should have been a stand alone film from the start on, but in no way a finale of the Skywalker Saga. The Skywalker Saga ended with RotJ. And "many fans" (c) TM seem to see it that way, as it looks now, that RoS will not even reach the box office TLJ made and will barely crawl above the $1 billion. Wich (TLJ) already made more than $700mio less than TFA. Seems like this "vocal minority" (c) TM makes up half the revenue lost from TFA to RoS. 😁

Their main fault was to shoehorn in a third Skywalker trilogy instead of making a fresh start with new heroes without any relation to the old icons (and by sticking losely to the canon Holdo maneuver and force resurection wise). That might have worked. Like Mandalorian, which just plays in the Star Wars universe but has no ties into the OT and Prequels (yet at least).

Or at least handled the hand off better. Having Han devolve off screen. then Leia devolve off screen and Luke Devolve off screen was poorly thought out. Not having the 3 get together ever was a mistake. But the biggest mistake is not having a clear story to follow through the movies was inexcusable. the 2 directors clearly had different plans and that made the story disjointed.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The difference is that the writing was better in empire. The difference is the character chouces made more sense. The Last Jedi has fundemental core problems in it's writing. The behavior of the Admiral doesnt make sense. The fact that Rose knows about hyperspace tracking but that information is never given to the Admiral doesnt make sense. The fact they stay on the cruisers doesnt make sense. If they can all get on the shuttles to escape to Crait why did they wait to do so? The fact that Finn and Rose can go to Cantonica makes going to Crait dumb and wasteful of personel. Rose can leave but dont send a message to get help doesnt make sense.

Holdo's writing absolutely makes sense, and if a fish person or some old dude in a uniform had done exactly the same as she did, nobody would have had a problem with it.