So maybe the Rose scenes where cut.

23 minutes ago, Eoen said:

So maybe the Rose scenes where cut.

A director's cut might make the film feel less "staccato" in its delivery. A lot of plot developments and twists in IX felt like bullet points that needed more development and were done a disservice by the machine-gun rapidity in which we moved over one to another. Abram's had a lot to do and not enough minutes to do it in. However, my understanding is that the Rose scenes that were cut presented some non-trivial technical problems in terms of editing and blending her shots in with the stock footage of Fischer they were working with.

A director's cut could improve the movie, could contribute nothing more than additional concessions to the grognards...or might have no impact one way or the other.

On the one hand, I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I'd be worried it might remove the "n't" from my "It wasn't bad" assessment.

49 minutes ago, Vondy said:

my understanding is that the Rose scenes that were cut presented some non-trivial technical problems in terms of editing and blending her shots in with the stock footage of Fischer they were working with.

But, according to Terrio, they made 36 year old outtake footage from Return of the Jedi work for the Luke/Leia flashback. After intentionally writing the bulk of Rose's scenes with a character that they know they could only do limited things with due to the performer's unfortunate passing two years prior to filming. And introducing at least two new incidental characters whose roles/dialogue could have also fit Rose (one of whom was played by someone who got their role in a bet with Abrams). While still dragging Kelly Marie Tran out to do press and giving the impression that she had a significant role in the movie again. Nah...they made a conscious decision to sideline Rose.

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

A director's cut could improve the movie, could contribute nothing more than additional concessions to the grognards...or might have no impact one way or the other.

On the one hand, I'd be interested in seeing it. On the other hand, I'd be worried it might remove the "n't" from my "It wasn't bad" assessment.

But, according to Terrio, they made 36 year old outtake footage from Return of the Jedi work for the Luke/Leia flashback. After intentionally writing the bulk of Rose's scenes with a character that they know they could only do limited things with due to the performer's unfortunate passing two years prior to filming. And introducing at least two new incidental characters whose roles/dialogue could have also fit Rose (one of whom was played by someone who got their role in a bet with Abrams). While still dragging Kelly Marie Tran out to do press and giving the impression that she had a significant role in the movie again. Nah...they made a conscious decision to sideline Rose.

They did sideline Rose. Which is unfortunate because I dont think fans really objected to her character. I think they more rejected that useless sidequest they put her and Finn on. That whole sequence was disjointed.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I dont think fans really objected to her character

Fans didn't.*

Toxic, racist, misogynist grognards who harassed her on social media (driving her to leave altogether) and through other tactics (such as racist edits to her Wikipedia page) who chose to monetize their hatred and loudly, publicly positioned themselves as "Star Wars fans" did.

*(As always, allowing for fans who didn't...we're not a single, monolithic hive mind. But, I get what we're both saying: "most fans.")

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Fans didn't.*

Toxic, racist, misogynist grognards who harassed her on social media (driving her to leave altogether) and through other tactics (such as racist edits to her Wikipedia page) who chose to monetize their hatred and loudly, publicly positioned themselves as "Star Wars fans" did.

*(As always, allowing for fans who didn't...we're not a single, monolithic hive mind. But, I get what we're both saying: "most fans.")

https://monsterhunternation.com/2019/07/16/the-three-cooters-theory-of-internet-discourse/
Worth a read. Just because a few vocal people on the internet behave badly does not mean the majority of the actual fans did.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Just because a few vocal people on the internet behave badly does not mean the majority of the actual fans did.

Never said nor meant to imply that they did.

But, they did manage to, with their volume, cement the narrative of Star Wars fans being both deeply divided and toxic.

(I may understand intellectually that, say, Rick & Morty fandom may not consist almost entirely of people so smugly faux-intellectual and abusive that even one of the show's creator called them out on it, but my gut reaction is that I don't want anything to do with them and they killed whatever minuscule bit of curiosity I may have had about the show. At this point, it's just, "That annoying show whose fans terrorized McDonald's locations over a dipping sauce.")

21 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

But, according to Terrio, they made 36 year old outtake footage from Return of the Jedi work for the Luke/Leia flashback. After intentionally writing the bulk of Rose's scenes with a character that they know they could only do limited things with due to the performer's unfortunate passing two years prior to filming. And introducing at least two new incidental characters whose roles/dialogue could have also fit Rose (one of whom was played by someone who got their role in a bet with Abrams). While still dragging Kelly Marie Tran out to do press and giving the impression that she had a significant role in the movie again. Nah...they made a conscious decision to sideline Rose.

There are still potential practical challenges. The footage of Luke and Leia from RotJ was face only and superimposed on doubles he were carefully choreographed to be in the right place at the right angle at the right time, and who were wearing costumes that allowed them not to have to worry about the neck and other supporting body structures.. One is simple challenge angles when blending the pre-existing footage. Rendering a face without even dealing with the rest of the head is a different set of problems than rendering a whole head and neck on a body, especially when the scene is dialogue intensive. Making it work might have required extensive re-shoots of Tran's scenes that weren't possible due to schedules or, for that matter, budget. Moreover, that kind of intensive GCI is both time and money intensive and budgets do impose constraints. Even for Star Wars and even for JJ Abrams. Directors and editors have to make hard choices and decide what they end up spending their financier's treasure on. I'm not at all saying it wouldn't be cool to see those scenes or that it wouldn't be possible to surmount the challenges involved with prepping them for a director's cut, but I can understand why they not be considered a priority compared to the Power Trio + Kylo Ren scenes. Especially since there were other scenes with Tran that don't require that kind of work that were also cut and could be put back in.

Thanks for making my point for me. As noted, they chose, going into writing, to tie the bulk of Rose's inclusion in the story to a process that they knew would be tough to make work well in all instances. While including other characters whose duties/dialogue could have fit Rose as well, characters whose inclusion would not preclude Rose also interacting with Leia. They made a conscious decision to sideline the character from the jump.

If we're being generous, we can say that they just weren't sure where to take her character in this particular story. If we're being cynical, they threw a bone to the toxic loudmouths.

32 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

https://monsterhunternation.com/2019/07/16/the-three-cooters-theory-of-internet-discourse/
Worth a read. Just because a few vocal people on the internet behave badly does not mean the majority of the actual fans did.

Exactly, great article.

And not to forget, those "new fans" and "Reylos", who are oh so virtuous and slander the "old fans" telling they were toxic and whatnot, are actually showering JJ and many actors with death threads. Funny nobody calls those death threads toxic. But apparently virtuous people can behave as awful as they want as long the morals are on their side. 🤔

Nope.

Toxic is toxic.

Harass an actor online for doing her job because you didn't like her character? Toxic.

Threaten a director because your particular "ship" didn't sail? Toxic.

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Nope.

Toxic is toxic.

Harass an actor online for doing her job because you didn't like her character? Toxic.

Threaten a director because your particular "ship" didn't sail? Toxic.

Sure. but someone making a bunch of accounts to do so does not make a mob. It just means a bunch of fake accounts one person said horrible things.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. but someone making a bunch of accounts to do so does not make a mob. It just means a bunch of fake accounts one person said horrible things.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make here. We appear to be on the same page regarding the noise being disproportionate to the actual segment of the audience that had a problem. Be it one or ten per 10,000, that noise still set the tone of the narrative about what all Star Wars fans are like, thanks to outlets more interested in getting clicks than context or accuracy.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Thanks for making my point for me.

This sort of rheotical aki-jitsu is hard to take with an assumption of good faith.

Quote

As noted, they chose, going into writing, to tie the bulk of Rose's inclusion in the story to a process that they knew would be tough to make work well in all instances. While including other characters whose duties/dialogue could have fit Rose as well, characters whose inclusion would not preclude Rose also interacting with Leia. They made a conscious decision to sideline the character from the jump.

Facts not in evidence. This is merely a hypothesis that you, for whatever reason, wish to impose on the story of this film. We don't know that the all of the technical issues were perfectly known or fully considered during the development and writing process. It is possible that Abram's shot those scenes entirely in good faith and then looked at everything he had to work with in light of his schedule and budget and made hard choices that Rose fans don't like.

And, at the risk of being labeled toxic, while Rose is a fine character she is strictly a supporting character who exists in the protagonist's orbit. She was not one of the new power trio, she was not one of the legacy power trio, and she was not a primary antagonist. And, on top of that, she got way more screen time than many supporting characters in the OT and PT ever did.

Beyond that, from all accounts, far more material than just Rose's scenes hit the cutting room floor. This movie clocked in, after the cuts, at 152 minutes. That is one long movie. A directors would likely clock in around three hours long. There are perfectly valid commercial and artistic reasons to cut her first. Yet, Rose fans are absolutely certain a conscious effort was made to short shrift her even though scenes involving the main characters were also cut.

Quote

If we're being generous, we can say that they just weren't sure where to take her character in this particular story. If we're being cynical, they threw a bone to the toxic loudmouths.

If we're being generous we might also say that Abram's simply recognized her role in the greater story just wasn't as important as Rey's, Kylo's, Poe's, Finn's and that she would never compete with beloved legacies like Chewbacca, R2, 3PO, Lando, or even Wedge. I've never been a big Wedge guy, but the second time I saw the movie the audience actually broke out with a crazy cheer when he flashed across the screen.

I wouldn't mind seeing more Rose scenes (if they don't suck or ruin the flow of the film), but I'm not going to throw stones over the choices that were made. Where you hypothesize ill-will I hypothesize valid shot-calling. And, quite frankly, her character isn't actually all that important when the bigger narrative of the film is laid out. Handled badly those scenes could kill the flow or ruin the overall structure.

I know the Internet hates to hear it, but we don't know what we don't know.

5 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Facts not in evidence. This is merely a hypothesis that you, for whatever reason, wish to impose on the story of this film. We don't know that the all of the technical issues were perfectly known or fully considered during the development and writing process. It is possible that Abram's shot those scenes entirely in good faith and then looked at everything he had to work with in light of his schedule and budget and made hard choices that Rose fans don't like.

But a reasonable conclusion drawn from the facts that are in evidence. Namely,

• They knew going into writing that reshoots for Leia material were impossible.
• They knew going into writing what existing Leia material was available.
• With this knowledge, they opted to tie a returning character's involvement in the story solely to a limited pool of possibilities. Rather than, say, D'acy (shown in The Last Jedi to be quite loyal to and concerned about Leia) or Connix (assuming Billie Lourd felt emotionally up to her role in the film being to shepherd her mother's final screen appearance), both characters who'd so far been consistently base-bound, they chose Rose, who'd stepped out into action on the Canto Bight mission and again on Crait.
• After making this decision, they opted to introduce a new background character to serve as a mechanic aboard the Falcon on its "story in progress" mission at the beginning of the movie, replacing the existing mechanic character now tied to a limited pool of existing footage.
• After making this decision, they opted to introduce a new incidental character (to be played by a known actor who's a friend of the director and received the role as the result of a bet) to deliver expository dialogue that could go to anyone...including an already existing character in the same scenes.

11 minutes ago, Vondy said:

And, at the risk of being labeled toxic, while Rose is a fine character she is strictly a supporting character who exists in the protagonist's orbit. She was not one of the new power trio, she was not one of the legacy power trio, and she was not a primary antagonist. And, on top of that, she got way more screen time than many supporting characters in the OT and PT ever did.

Oh, she's definitely a supporting character. A supporting character that the co-writers (one of whom was the director), clearly made a conscious decision to tie to an element of the movie that would inherently limit her participation in the story, despite the story having other opportunities to include her.

15 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Beyond that, from all accounts, far more material than just Rose's scenes hit the cutting room floor. This movie clocked in, after the cuts, at 152 minutes. That is one long movie. A directors would likely clock in around three hours long. There are perfectly valid commercial and artistic reasons to cut her first. Yet, Rose fans are absolutely certain a conscious effort was made to short shrift her even though scenes involving the main characters were also cut.

Because, as noted, they went into choosing her place in the story knowing that their choice - even if retasking all of the existing footage of Fisher worked as hoped - they were tying the character to possibilities even more limited than normal. I wouldn't particularly call myself a "Rose fan," but I like the character well enough. And, having an education in writing (both film and prose), I'm at least marginally cognizant of the kinds of decisions that must be made when initially sketching out the story about where and how you're going to utilize your characters.

21 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Where you hypothesize ill-will I hypothesize valid shot-calling.

I'd be less inclined to do so if they hadn't sent Tran out to do press for the movie, presented as having a significant role again. They capitalized, in part, on the good will that she received in response to the online harassment. Never mind that, despite the conclusion that giving an existing supporting character less significance and screen time than a new incidental character created specifically so the director's buddy who won a soccer bet could deliver exposition was a conscious decision on Abrams & Terrio's part, I allowed for a variety of reasons (up to and including ill will). My larger point was simply that, regardless of reason, it appears she was sidelined intentionally.

I mean, it's even less of a dealbreaker for me than the Rey reveal (which wasn't one), but her limited involvement is almost certainly intentional.

14 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

But a reasonable conclusion drawn from the facts that are in evidence. Namely,

• They knew going into writing that reshoots for Leia material were impossible.
• They knew going into writing what existing Leia material was available.
• With this knowledge, they opted to tie a returning character's involvement in the story solely to a limited pool of possibilities. Rather than, say, D'acy (shown in The Last Jedi to be quite loyal to and concerned about Leia) or Connix (assuming Billie Lourd felt emotionally up to her role in the film being to shepherd her mother's final screen appearance), both characters who'd so far been consistently base-bound, they chose Rose, who'd stepped out into action on the Canto Bight mission and again on Crait.
• After making this decision, they opted to introduce a new background character to serve as a mechanic aboard the Falcon on its "story in progress" mission at the beginning of the movie, replacing the existing mechanic character now tied to a limited pool of existing footage.
• After making this decision, they opted to introduce a new incidental character (to be played by a known actor who's a friend of the director and received the role as the result of a bet) to deliver expository dialogue that could go to anyone...including an already existing character in the same scenes.

Oh, she's definitely a supporting character. A supporting character that the co-writers (one of whom was the director), clearly made a conscious decision to tie to an element of the movie that would inherently limit her participation in the story, despite the story having other opportunities to include her.

Because, as noted, they went into choosing her place in the story knowing that their choice - even if retasking all of the existing footage of Fisher worked as hoped - they were tying the character to possibilities even more limited than normal. I wouldn't particularly call myself a "Rose fan," but I like the character well enough. And, having an education in writing (both film and prose), I'm at least marginally cognizant of the kinds of decisions that must be made when initially sketching out the story about where and how you're going to utilize your characters.

I'd be less inclined to do so if they hadn't sent Tran out to do press for the movie, presented as having a significant role again. They capitalized, in part, on the good will that she received in response to the online harassment. Never mind that, despite the conclusion that giving an existing supporting character less significance and screen time than a new incidental character created specifically so the director's buddy who won a soccer bet could deliver exposition was a conscious decision on Abrams & Terrio's part, I allowed for a variety of reasons (up to and including ill will). My larger point was simply that, regardless of reason, it appears she was sidelined intentionally.

I mean, it's even less of a dealbreaker for me than the Rey reveal (which wasn't one), but her limited involvement is almost certainly intentional.

Her character had baggage. This movie needed to be a success. For better or worse putting too much investment on her character was risky. So they didnt.

I just think JJ wanted as little to do with Rian's stuff as possible.

51 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I just think JJ wanted as little to do with Rian's stuff as possible.

That is how the movie felt.

58 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I just think JJ wanted as little to do with Rian's stuff as possible.

And, depending how individuals felt about The Last Jedi, he will be loved or hated for that.

2 hours ago, Vondy said:

And, at the risk of being labeled toxic, while Rose is a fine character she is strictly a supporting character who exists in the protagonist's orbit. She was not one of the new power trio, she was not one of the legacy power trio, and she was not a primary antagonist. And, on top of that, she got way more screen time than many supporting characters in the OT and PT ever did.

Right. A supporting character, like Lando in Empire, and not an extra like Lobot in Empire.

3 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Right. A supporting character, like Lando in Empire, and not an extra like Lobot in Empire.

Sure. And she got lines and screen time in the final edit of both films she was in. Just like Lando. If you go back and watch the OT Lando didn't have a huge amount of screen time compared to the main cast in those movies, either. He just made a big impression on some fans. Kind of like rose made a big impression on some fans. I'd actually rather see more of her role in the big battle, some of which was also cut and would require minimal editing to do, than more of her chatting Leia up... unless that dialog is just brilliant and scintillating and somehow adds a lot to the movie.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I dont think fans really objected to her character.

This is true.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I think they more rejected that useless sidequest they put her and Finn on.

This isn’t.
Also thinking that side quest is useless shows such a complete misunderstanding of the central theme of the TLJ that I don’t even know where to start explaining it.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

This is true.

This isn’t.
Also thinking that side quest is useless shows such a complete misunderstanding of the central theme of the TLJ that I don’t even know where to start explaining it.

So tell me how was the side quest useful? They didnt accomplish their goal. They didnt really bother to find the person they were sent to find. They just grabbed the first idiot who said they could do what was needed. Who was not trustworthy at all. Then there is the fact in many ways the central theme of TLJ was kind of insulting to many fans.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

So tell me how was the side quest useful?

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

They didnt accomplish their goal.

Sometimes the answer is right in front of you isn’t it?

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Then there is the fact in many ways the central theme of TLJ was kind of insulting to many fans.

Then they need some thicker skin.