23 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Holdo's writing absolutely makes sense, and if a fish person or some old dude in a uniform had done exactly the same as she did, nobody would have had a problem with it.

Sure or just wishful thinking? I would have also objected when a white old male would've pulled that stunt, because - try to imagine - it is the script "many fans" (c) TM critisize and not the gender nor the age (though Holdo is old as well) that matters. 😉

6 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Holdo's writing absolutely makes sense, and if a fish person or some old dude in a uniform had done exactly the same as she did, nobody would have had a problem with it.

No it didn't. When your choices cause a mutiny that is bad leadership. When you ignore your Starfighter commanders questions about a plan that results in them Mutinying you suck at leading and make me think you didnt earn your Admiralty or position. That was sloppy writing.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it didn't. When your choices cause a mutiny that is bad leadership.

A mutiny by a half dozen, at most. Put down largely by Holdo herself the moment the mutiny’s ringleader left the room. That ringleader was then taken out by an injured woman who’d just come out of a coma and pulled herself from her sick bed to end the foolishness.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

When you ignore your Starfighter commanders questions about a plan that results in them Mutinying you suck at leading and make me think you didnt earn your Admiralty or position.

Your starfighter commander who’d just been demoted for insubordination and disobeying a direct order resulting in the loss of lives and resources, who had no starfighters to command, and who got in your face demanding information that he wasn’t entitled to? That starfighter commander?

Is the mutiny really a commentary upon the admiral or the starfighter commander?

Because if mutiny inherently means a problem with the leadership, then the most recent episode of Resistance means that Captain Doza is a bad leader, while Kragan & his crew were perfectly justified in trying to take control of the Colossus.

23 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Holdo's writing absolutely makes sense, and if a fish person or some old dude in a uniform had done exactly the same as she did, nobody would have had a problem with it.

I normally try to stay out of these but now your accusing everyone of sexism just because you can. Holdo's decision (IMO) to keep her plan secret to everyone on the ship was irresponsible both Militarily and for peace of mind. With her taking that stance (not just with Poe), people were more likely to revolt for lack of leadership thinking they were just going to fly along until they ran out of fuel and were caught.

Just now, Varlie said:

I normally try to stay out of these but now your accusing everyone of sexism just because you can. Holdo's decision (IMO) to keep her plan secret to everyone on the ship was irresponsible both Militarily and for peace of mind. With her taking that stance (not just with Poe), people were more likely to revolt for lack of leadership thinking they were just going to fly along until they ran out of fuel and were caught.

exactlyand it did result in a revolt. It also resulted in people jumping ship. Rose's introduction demonstrates that.

1 minute ago, Varlie said:

I normally try to stay out of these but now your accusing everyone of sexism just because you can. Holdo's decision (IMO) to keep her plan secret to everyone on the ship was irresponsible both Militarily and for peace of mind. With her taking that stance (not just with Poe), people were more likely to revolt for lack of leadership thinking they were just going to fly along until they ran out of fuel and were caught.

She didn't keep it secret to everyone on the ship. They people who needed to know (like the people who were actually fuelling the transports) obviously knew.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

She didn't keep it secret to everyone on the ship. They people who needed to know (like the people who were actually fuelling the transports) obviously knew.

So a simple mechanic refuling the ships is ought to be more trustful than the top fighter pilot commander? Sure, wars have been always won by sharing secret plans with privates instead of their superiors. 🤔

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

So a simple mechanic refuling the ships is ought to be more trustful than the top fighter pilot commander? Sure, wars have been always won by sharing secret plans with privates instead of their superiors. 🤔

If that “top fighter pilot commander” had just been demoted for insubordination and disobeying a direct order, leading to significant loss of life and equipment, and now had no fighters to command pilots in, then gets in his new commander’s face demanding information...it is not unreasonable to withhold information he is not entitled to at that time.

There is a lot of reason why someone might hate the Canto Bight sequence in The Last Jedi. I consider myself one of the few that actually love it, but I can acknowledge that it is not perfect and have my own personnal criticizims.

But one thing I can't agree with is that it is pointless. Other than serving the theme of the movie about failure, it is mainly there to give development to Finn's character. It is the arc that makes Finn goes from wanting to run away to joining the fight in the Resistance. For Finn, Last Jedi starts exactly where Force Awakens ended: He wants to run away from the fight and is not interested in joining the fight. He went to Starkiller base not to help the Resistance but to save Rey. And when he decide to go to Canto Bight to find the Code Breaker, it is so that Rey can return to a Resistance fleet and not get caught by the First Order.

It's only once on Canto Bight and with the influence of Rose that he finally decide to join the Resistance, that he now see a purpose to join the fight instead of running away. He sees people not caring about the war, on the contrary benifiting from it. He sees DJ trying to convince him that he is right to not join, that it is not his buisness. But Finn finally decide to join the Resistance.

Remove the whole Canto Bight sequence, and Finn is back at the start. A First Order deserter that just wants to run away. But he joins the fight instead.

So, people can hate this sequence all they want for multiple reasons, but it is not pointless. It serves the movie and character development. Finn's arc reminds me a lot of Han's arc in Empire Strike Back. Escaping and hiding in the asteroid field might seems pointless, but it serves the character development of Han.

From Haldo's perspective, the FO was tracking the Resistance through some unknown means. It's certainly not outside the realm of incredulity that she suspected a mole among their ranks that was giving their position away to the FO. So why would she tell a commanding officer who just crippled their fleet her plan? For all she knew, Poe could have been a traitor and purposely had those bombers destroyed. It's too easy and too reckless to ignore Haldo's position and and point-of-view.

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

If that “top fighter pilot commander” had just been demoted for insubordination and disobeying a direct order, leading to significant loss of life and equipment, and now had no fighters to command pilots in, then gets in his new commander’s face demanding information...it is not unreasonable to withhold information he is not entitled to at that time.

Ah yes, I remember how the refuling team (by micheldebruyn's logic) was briefed and told of the death star's achilles heel at the end of New Hope while Luke and the other pilots waited beside their fighters oblivious of the attack plan. 🤔

As someone who has made his feelings on the Sequel trilogy quite clear, I will just say the following: Holdo was horrific. As a former navy guy myself, I have never in my life seen or heard of any officer who intentionally made such an effort to alienate and frustrate their subordinates as much as the Vice Admiral managed. She was so bad in fact I thought she was signalling the First Order until the hyperspace tracking reveal and up until the infiltration team (Rose, Finn and DJ) boarding the Supremacy thinking she was a First Order plant intentionally hindering the Resistance.

Anyway, TLJ talk aside, after all this news of J.J. being frustrated by the final cut - apparently partially stitched together without his input - I'm curious to see what his original take on the film was. I have no belief it will change my mind on the quality of the film, primarily since I'm not exactly fond of J.J. as a director but I am honestly curious to see if the movie would've been more coherent if the rumors of executive meddling pan out to be more than just mere rumor.

8 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

From Haldo's perspective, the FO was tracking the Resistance through some unknown means. It's certainly not outside the realm of incredulity that she suspected a mole among their ranks that was giving their position away to the FO. So why would she tell a commanding officer who just crippled their fleet her plan? For all she knew, Poe could have been a traitor and purposely had those bombers destroyed. It's too easy and too reckless to ignore Haldo's position and and point-of-view.

Seems reasonable to sacrifice a giant dreadnaught to destroy 5 snails cloaked as bombers. A cunning First Order master piece of a plan. 🤔

14 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

There is a lot of reason why someone might hate the Canto Bight sequence in The Last Jedi. I consider myself one of the few that actually love it, but I can acknowledge that it is not perfect and have my own personnal criticizims.

But one thing I can't agree with is that it is pointless. Other than serving the theme of the movie about failure, it is mainly there to give development to Finn's character. It is the arc that makes Finn goes from wanting to run away to joining the fight in the Resistance. For Finn, Last Jedi starts exactly where Force Awakens ended: He wants to run away from the fight and is not interested in joining the fight. He went to Starkiller base not to help the Resistance but to save Rey. And when he decide to go to Canto Bight to find the Code Breaker, it is so that Rey can return to a Resistance fleet and not get caught by the First Order.

It's only once on Canto Bight and with the influence of Rose that he finally decide to join the Resistance, that he now see a purpose to join the fight instead of running away. He sees people not caring about the war, on the contrary benifiting from it. He sees DJ trying to convince him that he is right to not join, that it is not his buisness. But Finn finally decide to join the Resistance.

Remove the whole Canto Bight sequence, and Finn is back at the start. A First Order deserter that just wants to run away. But he joins the fight instead.

So, people can hate this sequence all they want for multiple reasons, but it is not pointless. It serves the movie and character development. Finn's arc reminds me a lot of Han's arc in Empire Strike Back. Escaping and hiding in the asteroid field might seems pointless, but it serves the character development of Han.

He had already decided to join the resistance in the Force Awaken. Why did we have him having to make that decision again? This is another example of Rian ignoring past Star Wars.

4 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Ah yes, I remember how the refuling team (by micheldebruyn's logic) was briefed and told of the death star's achilles heel at the end of New Hope while Luke and the other pilots waited beside their fighters oblivious of the attack plan. 🤔

The same attack that incapacitated Leia, placing Holdo in command, destroyed the Resistance’s available fighters. What, exactly, were you expecting the (just demoted) “top fighter pilot commander” to command?

From context, at least some of the command and support staff (such as Commander D’acy) were in the loop. Connix, on the other hand, not so much.

15 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

From Haldo's perspective, the FO was tracking the Resistance through some unknown means. It's certainly not outside the realm of incredulity that she suspected a mole among their ranks that was giving their position away to the FO. So why would she tell a commanding officer who just crippled their fleet her plan? For all she knew, Poe could have been a traitor and purposely had those bombers destroyed. It's too easy and too reckless to ignore Haldo's position and and point-of-view.

Suspecting a Mole and keeping the info from known trustworthy people is foolish. Her behavior seemed to be designed to make who subordinates hate her. And it caused a mutiny and a bunch of desertion.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

He had already decided to join the resistance in the Force Awaken. Why did we have him having to make that decision again? This is another example of Rian ignoring past Star Wars.

Where? When?

He was boarding the Crimson Corsair’s ship to leave Takodana and get away from the fight when the First Order destroyed Hosnian Prime then attacked Max’s castle to retrieve BB-8. Rey got captured in the attack, so Finn went along with the Resistance wanting help to rescue Rey. He went to Starkiller on the Falcon to rescue Rey; he even said so in so many words to Han when they got to Starkiller. Then, before he could leave, was injured by Kylo Ren and taken, unconscious, back to D’Qar.

Where in there did he decide to join the Resistance?

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The same attack that incapacitated Leia, placing Holdo in command, destroyed the Resistance’s available fighters. What, exactly, were you expecting the (just demoted) “top fighter pilot commander” to command?

From context, at least some of the command and support staff (such as Commander D’acy) were in the loop. Connix, on the other hand, not so much.

You must refer to the dreadnought to be left unscathed by Leia's command calling for a retreat and the dreadnaught thus destroying the la Résistance's capital ship? If my memory serves me well, Reylo Ren and two first Order fighter goons destroyed the bridge and not Poe's doing. If not for the destruction of the dreadnaught, this massive beast would have shot down Holdo's flagship in mere seconds. 🤔

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Suspecting a Mole and keeping the info from known trustworthy people is foolish. Her behavior seemed to be designed to make who subordinates hate her. And it caused a mutiny and a bunch of desertion.

Which known trustworthy people do we know she kept info from?

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Which known trustworthy people do we know she kept info from?

Rose, Finn, Poe...for instance? 🤔

After all Rose was trusted enough to go after potential defectors like a soviet commissar in WW2.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Which known trustworthy people do we know she kept info from?

Poe. She clearly indicated he was trusted by both Leia and Holdo. But for some reason she kept the information from him when he directly asked. and keeping that info from him resulted in many deaths a mutiny and the First Order finding out the plan.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

He had already decided to join the resistance in the Force Awaken. Why did we have him having to make that decision again? This is another example of Rian ignoring past Star Wars.

Nytwyng already addressed that part so I won’t repeat what he just said.

Contrary to popular believes, Rian was actually paying attention to Episode 7.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

You must refer to the dreadnought to be left unscathed by Leia's command calling for a retreat and the dreadnaught thus destroying the la Résistance's capital ship? If my memory serfves me well, Reylo Ren and twi first Order fighter goons destroyed the bridge and not Poe's doing. If not for the destruction of the dreadnaught, this massive beast would have shot down Holdo's flagship in mere seconds. 🤔

Nope, all Resistance personnel were aboard their respective ships (minus the fighters and bombers), and they were ready to jump. Had Poe obeyed Leia’s order, they would have all left.

Now, we can indeed safely say that, thanks to their hyperspace tracking, if the Resistance had jumped at that point, they would have been sitting ducks for the dreadnaught when the First Order jumped in. At that point, however, no one in the Resistance had any reason to suspect that they’d be tracked through hyperspace.

And, no, the Raddus’ fighter bay was destroyed by the TIE attack when the First Order came out of hyperspace, the same attack that also resulted in the bridge’s destruction. The few fighters left after the attack on the dreadnaught were lost; Poe had no starfighters to command as of Holdo taking command of the fleet.

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Where? When?

He was boarding the Crimson Corsair’s ship to leave Takodana and get away from the fight when the First Order destroyed Hosnian Prime then attacked Max’s castle to retrieve BB-8. Rey got captured in the attack, so Finn went along with the Resistance wanting help to rescue Rey. He went to Starkiller on the Falcon to rescue Rey; he even said so in so many words to Han when they got to Starkiller. Then, before he could leave, was injured by Kylo Ren and taken, unconscious, back to D’Qar.

Where in there did he decide to join the Resistance?

When he gave the info that created the attack plan.

3 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Rose, Finn, Poe...for instance? 🤔

After all Rose was trusted enough to go after potential defectors like a soviet commissar in WW2.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Poe. She clearly indicated he was trusted by both Leia and Holdo. But for some reason she kept the information from him when he directly asked. and keeping that info from him resulted in many deaths a mutiny and the First Order finding out the plan.

She should trust someone who’d been demoted for insubordination and who got in her face demanding information he wasn’t entitled to?

She should trust a former stormtrooper (who, unbeknownst to her, had tried to jump ship)?

She could indeed have provided Rose the information, especially if Rose had been given the opportunity share her theory about the hyperspace tracking. But, Poe prevented that. There he goes, proving again that Holdo should trust him by (checks notes) undermining her authority.