7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Three movies that make a billion dollars is... a mass - or very large - rejection by the fanbase?

I mean, alright. RotJ also saw a massive drop... almost as if trilogies have that happen, where the third one doesn’t gross as high as either one or both of the others.

(Unless you’re Marvel, but they are the exception that proves the rule.)

Look at what TFA made. Compare to what TLJ made and then compare to what TROS has made. You will notice steep decline in revenue. That is a large rejection by the fan base.

14 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Three movies that make a billion dollars is... a mass - or very large - rejection by the fanbase?

I mean, alright. RotJ also saw a massive drop... almost as if trilogies have that happen, where the third one doesn’t gross as high as either one or both of the others.

(Unless you’re Marvel, but they are the exception that proves the rule.)

Agreed! This is akin to a headline that reads "a downturn in job growth" that is aimed at producing a negative impression even though the employment rate is still rising, albeit slower than it did the last fiscal quarter. The Rise of Skywalker paid for its (approx) $275M price tag by the end of week two. Sure, it made less money each week than its predecessors, but its still raking in enviable sums of cash and will likely do so for several more weeks to come. It also pushed Disney's total annual income to all time record highs. I sincerely doubt their execs are upset or than more than a vocal minority of the fanbase is "in revolt" over it. Trilogies almost always have box office fatigue going into their third installment. Almost all the fans I know had mixed feelings about all three sequel films (lots to love and lots to hate) and are hoping to see more someday. And almost all of them love the Mandalorian and are excited about the Kenobi show. I think the franchise and the fandom are doing just fine.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Look at what TFA made. Compare to what TLJ made and then compare to what TROS has made. You will notice steep decline in revenue. That is a large rejection by the fan base.

Look at what Star Wars made. Compare that to what ESB made, and then compare that to RotJ. Does that also indicate a “large rejection by the fan base?”

If we look purely at box office, the three currently most beloved movies in the franchise are (in order) TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One (followed closely by...The Phantom Menace 😜 ).

You know, when I hear the term "reboot the fandom" I think "so they are asking for high quality fan fiction that ignores the expanded universe and novels?"

I'm cool with that.

3 hours ago, DarthDude said:

To me and my friends, we suspected Holdo to be a first order mole the way she behaved.

Well, its Star Wars. "From a certain point of view..."

52 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Look at what Star Wars made. Compare that to what ESB made, and then compare that to RotJ. Does that also indicate a “large rejection by the fan base?”

If we look purely at box office, the three currently most beloved movies in the franchise are (in order) TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One (followed closely by...The Phantom Menace 😜 ).

There’s this thing called inflation. Lucas mostly made his fortune on toy sales anyways.

I’m not sure if beloved goes hand in hand with box office receipts.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

There’s this thing called inflation. Lucas mostly made his fortune on toy sales anyways.

Yeah, I just think it’s funny to not only note the same pattern being described as a sign of “large rejection by the fan base” applies to the original trilogy (and most trilogies, for that matter, with Revenge of the Sith being an outlier and showing improved performance over its immediate predecessor), but to think that, if we look purely at numbers, the installment at the bottom of most people’s preference list ranks near the top. 😁

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah, I just think it’s funny to not only note the same pattern being described as a sign of “large rejection by the fan base” applies to the original trilogy (and most trilogies, for that matter, with Revenge of the Sith being an outlier and showing improved performance over its immediate predecessor), but to think that, if we look purely at numbers, the installment at the bottom of most people’s preference list ranks near the top. 😁

I’d personally put Attack of the Clones high on my list if it wasn’t for sand being course and dry and getting every where.

I literally fast forward that part almost every time I watch it.

7 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I’d personally put Attack of the Clones high on my list if it wasn’t for sand being course and dry and getting every where.

I literally fast forward that part almost every time I watch it.

I do that with Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi .

There are some great scenes in both, but... man. I find not insubstantial parts of both painful to watch.

I found both Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker quite watchable.

23 hours ago, Daeglan said:

https://monsterhunternation.com/2019/07/16/the-three-cooters-theory-of-internet-discourse/
Worth a read. Just because a few vocal people on the internet behave badly does not mean the majority of the actual fans did.

"Ignore the bullys and they will go away" has always been great advice that totally works.

1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

"Ignore the bullys and they will go away" has always been great advice that totally works.

on the internet it does.

The only Director's cut scene I am looking for.

I have spoken!

5 hours ago, Vondy said:

My feeling is Laura Dern did a great job with a poorly presented character who was actually superfluous to the plot . First, she should have been in a uniform and not a dress. The Star Wars obsession with making women in power elegant and feminine and regal as opposed to professional did her no favors. On top of that, she was introduced as a leader we're supposed to implicitly trust no matter what , but whom we haven't met before, despite the fact that General Leia Organa was standing right there .

Actually, the reason Holdo is in charge and doing all this, instead of Ackbar or Leia, is because we, the audience, do not know Holdo and whether or not she can be trusted. Having it be an unknowncharacter adds a level of ambiguity and suspense. If it were Leia, we would know immediately she is right and Poe is wrong. But it's Holdo, so we don't know until we find out later.

3 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Actually, the reason Holdo is in charge and doing all this, instead of Ackbar or Leia, is because we, the audience, do not know Holdo and whether or not she can be trusted. Having it be an unknowncharacter adds a level of ambiguity and suspense. If it were Leia, we would know immediately she is right and Poe is wrong. But it's Holdo, so we don't know until we find out later.

And that is the problem the whole premise is weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. They sidelined Leia for no real good reason. Poes growth as a character likely would have worked better under Leia. All to make the slowest and most boring chase scene ever.

3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Nothing was “undone.” What they’d accomplished still happened to them. All three of them are where they are for what they see as their individual failures of Ben. But that’s a history that we get the pieces we need for the larger story at hand as it unfolds, just as we did in the original trilogy.

To be fair, The Force Awakens undid a lot of Return Of The Jedi, by necessity.

When he made Jedi, George Lucas had no intention of ever making an episode VII, so he ended his universe, gave everybody a happy ending, resolved all plot threads, left evil utterly vanquished, and pretty much left nowhere to go from there.

And before spmebody screams EU, the Sacred EU undid practically all of Return Of The Jedi. Palpatine came back, Luke went dark, the New Republic spent ages fighting an Empire they already had beaten, most of the Skywalker kids became Sith... The only difference is the EU didn't have to deal with actors being 30 years older.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And that is the problem the whole premise is weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. They sidelined Leia for no real good reason. Poes growth as a character likely would have worked better under Leia. All to make the slowest and most boring chase scene ever.

It makes perfect sense if you want to create a situation where you want to throw the audience a curve-ball . by making them believe Poe is in the right only to find out that he's wrong. It's a deliberate bait and switch . Like it or not, Johnson was going out if his way to subvert fans' expectations throughout the entire movie. IF you want to subvert fans' expectations, you have to play them up first before the big reveal throws them for a loop.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

It makes perfect sense if you want to create a situation where you want to throw the audience a curve-ball . by making them believe Poe is in the right only to find out that he's wrong. It's a deliberate bait and switch .

Which doesnt work because it mostly highlights bad decision making by Holdo.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And that is the problem the whole premise is weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. They sidelined Leia for no real good reason. Poes growth as a character likely would have worked better under Leia. All to make the slowest and most boring chase scene ever.

Meh. Poe wasn't even supposed to be in it. He was supposed to die in The Force Awakens. Abrams adding an extra main character complicated so much about the sequals.

Just now, micheldebruyn said:

Meh. Poe wasn't even supposed to be in it. He was supposed to die in The Force Awakens. Abrams adding an extra main character complicated so much about the sequals.

Because they had no plan at all. Which didnt work out so well.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

What would have been better is to have the old characters end up being mentors to the new generation.

This is what they did. Han, Luke, and Leia were all mentors to the new characters. Thing is, mentor types in Star Wars of story come with an expiration date. They don't get to live.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which doesnt work because it mostly highlights bad decision making by Holdo.

I disagree. It works perfectly. Like I said in my addendum to my previous post. Johnson went out of his way to deliberately subvert fan's expectations throughout the movie. That would have been impossible if it were Leia or Ackbar giving the orders. It had to be an unknown quantity that the fans wouldn't necessarily trust. They had to trust Poe . They had to expect that Poe would be vindicated. So he set Holdo up to "appear" to be the "bad guy" in their personal conflict, so when it turns out, she was right all along, the audience would be thrown for a loop .

59 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

on the internet it does.

It works even less online than it does in real life. There are people who have changed email, changed schools, moved to another state... to escape cyberbullies, with little effect.

43 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Actually, the reason Holdo is in charge and doing all this, instead of Ackbar or Leia, is because we, the audience, do not know Holdo and whether or not she can be trusted. Having it be an unknowncharacter adds a level of ambiguity and suspense. If it were Leia, we would know immediately she is right and Poe is wrong. But it's Holdo, so we don't know until we find out later.

Dissent is not ignorance. I fully ken that it was intentional and what Johnson hoped would happen. However, I maintain it was an extremely poor and risky decision that ended up backfiring on him and the character. I also maintain Johnson made some poor aesthetic and structural choices that resulted in a deeply flawed film. You are, of course, free to regard every moment as brilliant and love it to your heart's content, but I'm not going to be brow-beaten over a what amounts to a difference in critical artistic analyses and aesthetic preferences. I believe one can level strong criticisms of a piece of artwork without hating it, the people in it, or what it was hoping to accomplish. I understand what Johnson was trying to do. I just feel he failed spectacularly in his execution. And, as I have said elsewhere, The Last Jedi had some brilliant highs and wow moments. I just feel, in the balance, those didn't win out.

7 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

It works even less online than it does in real life. There are people who have changed email, changed schools, moved to another state... to escape cyberbullies, with little effect.

That's what the ignored users list is for.

This is the way....