Just now, DarthDude said:

To me and my friends, we suspected Holdo to be a first order mole the way she behaved.

And Rian Johnson can be happy because that was his (obvious) intent.

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

You can facepalm all you want but it has been established since 1977 that a gown or dress IS proper military attire in the SW universe.

So in combat situations female soldiers wear gowns? *double facepalm* I try to imagine women in dresses fighting in trenches. Ridiculous.

Leia wore a military uniform in battle situations.

8 minutes ago, Vondy said:

So we, the audience, are supposed to take the side of a character we've never met before and know nothing about over a firmly established and well-liked protagonist when a conflict erupts?

No, you are supposed to go along with Poe and then understand why that was a mistake at the same time he does.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

So in combat situations female soldiers wear gowns? *double facepalm* I try to imagine women in dresses fighting in trenches. Ridiculous.

Yeah... she was super slowed down in that trench for a while.

11 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

This is so unbelievably sexist...

I am neither impressed nor cowed by cheap shots or the toxic lobbing of -ism bombs in lieu speaking to the point. Nor does rhetorical akijitsu put me back on my heels. I've had my asbestos Internet undies on since the early 90's. The very point I was making is that putting her in a gown instead of a uniform was implicitly sexist. Male admirals don't show up and start tossing out orders in tuxedos or suits, and more to the point, no one would have considered costuming a male admiral in civilian clothes. Why did they then put a woman in civilian clothes? There is a reason military officers (male and female alike) wear uniforms. It signals their role and authority and is the appropriate professional attire . And, in a movie, which is a visual medium? You put your admirals in uniforms irrespective of their sexual plumbing.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

Male admirals don't show up and start tossing out orders in tuxedos or suits

No, apparently they wear capes.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

There is a reason military officers (male and female alike) wear uniforms. It signals their role and authority and is the appropriate professional attire .

Like Mon Mothma?

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

No, apparently they wear capes.

The cape is a part of the uniform.

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Like Mon Mothma?

Mon Mothma was not a military officer. She was a former Senator turned political leader of the Rebellion. Ergo, she was a civilian.

2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Yeah... she was super slowed down in that trench for a while.

Leia Battle of Hoth:

Leia Battle of Endor:

2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

No, apparently they wear capes.

When they are a part of the uniform? Yes.

And, I'd have had no issues with Holdo in a uniform with a cape.

2 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Mon Mothma was not a military officer.

She led the rebellion a (uniformed) military group.

Does every thread about the movies devolve into TLJ arguing?

3 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Leia Battle of Hoth:

Leia Battle of Endor:

Not quite sure why we are seeing pictures of Leia on land based missions when discussing Holdo on the bridge of a ship, but I am sure you felt like this was some kind of knock out punch!

4 minutes ago, Vondy said:

When they are a part of the uniform? Yes.

But... that would mean they are too busy trying to look elegant and regal!

37 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So you expect characters to remain stagnant for the 30 years between installments?

No but I expect changes counter to what has been established to happen on screen. In many ways this set of movies started in the wrong place. like the point where Ben Solo fell to the dark side is likely a better place to have started these movies.

7 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Not quite sure why we are seeing pictures of Leia on land based missions when discussing Holdo on the bridge of a ship, but I am sure you felt like this was some kind of knock out punch!

Another cheap shot. Not impressed either. 🤣

Sure, uniforms for land based missions and evening party attire for naval battles. Are you for real? 😁

14 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Not quite sure why we are seeing pictures of Leia on land based missions when discussing Holdo on the bridge of a ship, but I am sure you felt like this was some kind of knock out punch!

Behold Poe Dameron during the battle of D'Qar flying his x-wing! According to friend Rotterdam's imagination! 🤣 🤣 🤣

Wow, I left this thread only a couple hours ago, and I come back to see a bunch of dianogas writhing around in the sewer. 🤢

The only question is: do I rip off my clothes and dive in?

14 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Does every thread about the movies devolve into TLJ arguing?

And even posts about TROS which hasn't been mentioned in 3 pages

It's like asking some people why armor has Defense in the game 🙄

15 hours ago, DarthDude said:

Another cheap shot. Not impressed either. 🤣

Sure, uniforms for land based missions and evening party attire for naval battles. Are you for real? 😁

Wants to talk about cheap shots but is constantly being super belligerent and has to put people down with his incessant use of emojis.
And yes, I am “for real”. In a movie about space wizards and gangsters who are so fat they can’t move and are being guarded by bipedal pigs carrying axes all while wearing bdsm costumes, I am not having a big problem with an Admiral wearing a dress.

5 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Behold Poe Dameron during the battle of D'Qar flying his x-wing! According to friend Rotterdam imagination! 🤣 🤣 🤣

At least you make yourself laugh.

4 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Wants to talk about cheap shots but is constantly being super belligerent and has to put people down with his incessant use of emojis.
And yes, I am “for real”. In a movie about space wizards and gangsters who are so fat they can’t move being guarded by bipedal pigs carrying axes while wearing bdsm costumes I am not having a big problem with an Admiral wearing a dress.

Sorry, I respect opposite opinions, but you are the one throwing around accusations of sexism like cheap candy on carnival. And this strategy makes you somewhat of a disingenuous person.

Edit: And yes, people constantly using sexism and racism as a thought-terminating cliché are laughable.

13 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Something else to keep in mind is that script writers also have a meta they are working with: the audience. They aren't just introducing a character that is demanding Poe should trust and respect her implicitly, but a character that the audience is expected to trust and respect implicitly. Except, the people with their backsides in the chairs watching know even less about Holdo than Poe theoretically should. Its Poe himself who tells us in a throwaway line about her supposed reputation. So we, the audience, are supposed to take the side of a character we've never met before and know nothing about over a firmly established and well-liked protagonist when a conflict erupts? That is a huge and unrealistic ask. In other words, its strait-up bad screenwriting. Holdo isn't the issue. Hack writing is.

I’d say that, given how the story played out, the intent was precisely to create friction, and for the audience to have a certain amount of, “Who does she think she is?” from that initial interaction with Poe.

Part of the issue is something that I’ll call McFly Syndrome. Bear with me as I explain it. Back to the Future was intended as a stand-alone movie. For that structure, Marty had a full arc. But when it became a trilogy, he needed a flaw to overcome to carry him through Parts II and III. Suddenly, he has a Pavlovian response to someone calling him “chicken,” and feels compelled to prove his courage every time, until he learns his lesson at the end of III, backs down from a senseless challenge, and alters his future, cementing the idea that his destiny is his own.

With Poe, he was supposed to be killed in the first act of TFA. But, Abrams (and, presumably Kasdan) elected to keep him around. TFA didn’t call for him to be anything other than a hotshot pilot. But now, positioned as part of the Sequel Big Three, he needed an arc for VIII and IX, which became the transition from brash pilot to leader. It’s one thing for him to clash with Leia (“I did a Big Thing!” “Yeah, but it got people killed!”), but it’s easier for Poe to be our POV character for his arc in TLJ if his friction is with someone that the audience isn’t inclined to defer to, themselves. Enter Holdo.

Poe establishes her reputation, but when slapped down, both he and - because he’s one of Our Heroes - the audience respond with, “Well, she’s not so great after all.” We are led to side with Poe because he’s the known quantity and she’s the unknown, and it allows the tension of not knowing what’s going on to ramp up. I think it’s safe to say that this is by design. Whether or not the way it plays out works for a particular viewer is a purely individual, subjective thing. But, it’s internally consistent to the setting and the characters.

I might even go so far as to say that rather than being an example of “bad writing,” that the fierce defense of Poe and condemnation of Holdo that we see from some is indicative of good writing, as Johnson got a segment of the audience to so identify with Poe’s situation that they can’t or won’t consider any other perspective on the matter.

I can understand why it might not have worked for some, but that doesn’t make it “bad” or “lazy” writing.” I’m not a fan of the whole “Rey Palpatine” swerve. But I see it for what it is: a creative decision that didn’t land for me. It’s not “lazy,” (although if I were inclined, I could probably make a case for that) it’s just something I didn’t like in a movie.

22 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Sorry, I respect opposite opinions, but you are the one throwing around accusations of sexism like cheap candy on carnival.

I called the remark, where the first thing someone did when criticizing a female character was to point out how she was dressed, sexist. That was also the one and only time I stated such. If that was such a trigger that you want to build an entire strawman to attack me for then be my guest.