2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No I postulate that it is poor writing that has characters making uncharacteristic decisions in order to have plot happen. Which is poor writing.

My feeling is Laura Dern did a great job with a poorly presented character who was actually superfluous to the plot . First, she should have been in a uniform and not a dress. The Star Wars obsession with making women in power elegant and feminine and regal as opposed to professional did her no favors. On top of that, she was introduced as a leader we're supposed to implicitly trust no matter what , but whom we haven't met before, despite the fact that General Leia Organa was standing right there .

Holdo's entire conflict with Poe that was supposed to be about his growth into a leader would have been far more believable, impactful, poignant, and sensible if it had been with Leia. We would have likely expected him to follow Leia's commands. Instead they space Mary Poppins'd a major character to introduce a nobody we know nothing about who then conducted herself in a manner that would have been equally questioned by a male Johnny-Come-Lately admiral.

The only big problem with having it be Leia is that the fans would not have accepted a suicide play from her and it would be meaningless if it were performed by a nobody. But, then, there was another fan favorite right they also summarily spaced to get out of the way. I find it extremely odd that so many fans love Ackbar, but... if he'd pulled that maneuver there would have been fans who (strangely) would have actually shed tears.

My point is: the same plot and conflicts could have been played out by established characters more effectively while at the same time keeping the story leaner, meaner, and more on point. Instead we ended up with Admiral Who?

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Im telling you a leader should anticipate how their subordinate will react to commands and use a method that gets good results. You dont get to be a vice admiral with out being able to read your troops and issue commands in a manner that gets desired results.

So, a good leader capitulates to a petulant loudmouth who gets in their face demanding information they’re not entitled to?

I appreciate the education. I’m gonna go to my boss and demand to be given our corporate strategy for the next year and double my pay while I’m at it. After all, a good leader should respond to that in a way to keep me happy and avoid me deciding on my own to behave badly if I don’t get my way.

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I’ve no doubt that some did. Likewise, I’m sure that some agreed with her decision. We’re all making assumptions.

I have talked to many military personel and I have yet to meet any who backed up her decision making.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I have talked to many military personel and I have yet to meet any who backed up her decision making.

So they all, without exception, would have given information to someone not entitled to it in order to prevent a tantrum? They wouldn’t expect that person to follow their order to take their station?

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So, a good leader capitulates to a petulant loudmouth who gets in their face demanding information they’re not entitled to?

I appreciate the education. I’m gonna go to my boss and demand to be given our corporate strategy for the next year and double my pay while I’m at it. After all, a good leader should respond to that in a way to keep me happy and avoid me deciding on my own to behave badly if I don’t get my way.

No a good leader gives their commands in a manner that gets desired results. Not in a manner that results in a mutiny.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No a good leader gives their commands in a manner that gets desired results. Not in a manner that results in a mutiny.

And we’re circling back around to all mutiny is a reflection on the commander, not the mutineer. Got it.

Doza: bad commander; Kragan’s pirates: justified in mutiny.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Or at least handled the hand off better. Having Han devolve off screen. then Leia devolve off screen and Luke Devolve off screen was poorly thought out

If you need all your backstory spoon fed then yes.

11 minutes ago, Vondy said:

My feeling is Laura Dern did a great job with a poorly presented character who was actually superfluous to the plot . First, she should have been in a uniform and not a dress. The Star Wars obsession with making women in power elegant and feminine and regal as opposed to professional did her no favors. On top of that, she was introduced as a leader we're supposed to implicitly trust no matter what , but whom we haven't met before, despite the fact that General Leia Organa was standing right there .

Holdo's entire conflict with Poe that was supposed to be about his growth into a leader would have been far more believable, impactful, poignant, and sensible if it had been with Leia. We would have likely expected him to follow Leia's commands. Instead they space Mary Poppins'd a major character to introduce a nobody we know nothing about who then conducted herself in a manner that would have been equally questioned by a male Johnny-Come-Lately admiral.

The only big problem with having it be Leia is that the fans would not have accepted a suicide play from her and it would be meaningless if it were performed by a nobody. But, then, there was another fan favorite right they also summarily spaced to get out of the way. I find it extremely odd that so many fans love Ackbar, but... if he'd pulled that maneuver there would have been fans who (strangely) would have actually shed tears.

My point is: the same plot and conflicts could have been played out by established characters more effectively while at the same time keeping the story leaner, meaner, and more on point. Instead we ended up with Admiral Who?

Leia wore a propper military uniform in TFA which worked pretty well. Johnson was probably to obsessed making an "art movie" influenced by Gautier 5th Element clothing style that he put Leia and Holdo in ridiculous evening gowns.

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

If you need all your backstory spoon fed then yes.

no. I expect major changes to a character to happen on screen.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

Leia wore a propper military uniform in TFA which worked pretty well. Johnson was probably to obsessed making an "art movie" influenced by Gautier 5th Element clothing style that he put Leia and Holdo in ridiculous evening gowns.

To be fair, TLJ showed us Leia as she appeared at the end of TFA. With the New Republic gone, she made the transition from Dodonna to Mon Mothma.

12 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So they all, without exception, would have given information to someone not entitled to it in order to prevent a tantrum? They wouldn’t expect that person to follow their order to take their station?

It is customary for military commanders to inform key senior staff of their plans, and when necessary, their reasoning, so that their orders and plans can be effectively carried out. If the captains of your ships and wing-commanders, or the colonels and majors of your field units, do not know or understand the battle plan you will lose . You do not become a general or an admiral without understanding this very basic truth of war. Nor do you become a General or Admiral without being a political animal who knows how to work the system and your subordinates like a champ. Yes, you must establish your authority, but you don't do that by demanding blind obedience to orders that, on the surface, appear inexplicable. You act like a professional and read your key leaders in. The Resistance is an irregular force, but Poe was their senior flight commander. She would have done better to let him in on the battle plan rather than pointedly keep him in the dark.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

no. I expect major changes to a character to happen on screen.

So you expect characters to remain stagnant for the 30 years between installments?

5 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

If you need all your backstory spoon fed then yes.

You should not need to read novels to fill all those ridiculous plot holes of a movie afterwards. If asking for a scipt to make sense is equal to demanding to be spoon fed background, then well, spoon fed it shall be. 😁

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

You should not need to read novels to fill all those ridiculous plot holes of a movie afterwards. If asking for a scipt to make sense is equal to demanding to be spoon fed background, then well, spoon fed it shall be. 😁

And, for me, I desire the spoon be silver.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

It is customary for military commanders to inform key senior staff of their plans, and when necessary, their reasoning, so that their orders and plans can be effectively carried out. If the captains of your ships, or the colonels and majors of your field units, do not know or understand the battle plan you will lose . You do not become a general or an admiral without understanding this very basic truth of war. Nor do you become a General or Admiral without being a political animal who knows how to work the system and your subordinates like a champ. Yes, you must establish your authority, but you don't do that by demanding blind obedience to orders that, on the surface, appear inexplicable. You act like a professional and read your key leaders in. The Resistance is an irregular force, but Poe was their senior flight commander. She would have done better to let him in on the battle plan rather than pointedly keep him in the dark.

He wasn’t the flight commander any longer, however, having been demoted by Leia. At the point Holdo took command, there were no starfighters for whoever had that position (or even Poe) to command.

I can find enough common ground to say that both of them were basically attempting to flex on the other: Poe exaggerates his position demanding information, and Holdo responds by establishing she knows who he is and what his current position is. Neither made a great first impression on the other, but Poe set the tone by lying and demanding information he was no longer entitled to.

8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

He wasn’t the flight commander any longer, however, having been demoted by Leia. At the point Holdo took command, there were no starfighters for whoever had that position (or even Poe) to command.

I can find enough common ground to say that both of them were basically attempting to flex on the other: Poe exaggerates his position demanding information, and Holdo responds by establishing she knows who he is and what his current position is. Neither made a great first impression on the other, but Poe set the tone by lying and demanding information he was no longer entitled to.

You are aware he was demoted from wing commander to captain, which ist still a quite considerable rank with entitlement?

16 minutes ago, Vondy said:

key senior staff of their plans

Hey wasn’t key senior staff.

Something else to keep in mind is that script writers also have a meta they are working with: the audience. They aren't just introducing a character that is demanding Poe should trust and respect her implicitly, but a character that the audience is expected to trust and respect implicitly. Except, the people with their backsides in the chairs watching know even less about Holdo than Poe theoretically should. Its Poe himself who tells us in a throwaway line about her supposed reputation. So we, the audience, are supposed to take the side of a character we've never met before and know nothing about over a firmly established and well-liked protagonist when a conflict erupts? That is a huge and unrealistic ask. In other words, its strait-up bad screenwriting. Holdo isn't the issue. Hack writing is.

37 minutes ago, Vondy said:

First, she should have been in a uniform and not a dress. The Star Wars obsession with making women in power elegant and feminine and regal as opposed to professional did her no favors.

This is so unbelievably sexist...

16 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

You should not need to read novels to fill all those ridiculous plot holes of a movie afterwards. If asking for a scipt to make sense is equal to demanding to be spoon fed background, then well, spoon fed it shall be.

Didn’t read any of the novels. Movie made perfect sense to me.

1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:

This is so unbelievably sexist...

Assuming female military personel to wear uniform in wartime instead of evening dresses is what? Are you serious? *roll eyes facepalm*

38 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

45 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I have talked to many military personel and I have yet to meet any who backed up her decision making

I’m calling bs.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

Assuming female military personel to wear uniform in wartime instead of evening dresses is what? Are you serious? *roll eyes facepalm*

You can facepalm all you want but it has been established since 1977 that a gown or dress IS proper military attire in the SW universe.

3 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Something else to keep in mind is that script writers also have a meta they are working with: the audience. They aren't just introducing a character that is demanding Poe should trust and respect her implicitly, but a character that the audience is expected to trust and respect implicitly. Except, the people with their backsides in the chairs watching know even less about Holdo than Poe theoretically should. Its Poe himself who tells us in a throwaway line about her supposed reputation. So we, the audience, are supposed to take the side of a character we've never met before and know nothing about over a firmly established and well-liked protagonist when a conflict erupts? That is a huge and unrealistic ask. In other words, its strait-up bad screenwriting. Holdo isn't the issue. Hack writing is.

To me and my friends, we suspected Holdo to be a first order mole the way she behaved.

Also, that wasn’t the part about it that was sexist.