I'm going to expand on my tangential thought to make it more relevant to this convo:

Illicit: Jury-Rigged Energy Cells

3 energy, non-recurring.

During the system phase, you may gain 1 energy to roll an attack die. On a blank, lose 1 energy. Suffer all hit / crit results.

Cannon: Flechette Cannon.

4 die attack

Attack: spend 2 energy. If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 crit and gains 1 stress. Then cancel all remaining hit/crit results

I'll be honest, I just really love the idea of scum ships going to great lengths to strap a capital class weapon to their spaceship. Like space goblins.

18 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

But... it's not a straight upgrade.

That's my point. It's an additional option, but it's not just an upgrade that says here's your primary but better. You don't even apply your own logic to your own argument. If simply having an extra arc is a straight upgrade, then surely the Ghost would count as benefiting too?

If you have to employ 'proper range management' to use an upgrade, then it's not simply better. It requires the player to be able to fly the ship in such a way that the upgrade is useful.

And again, Dorsal will only ever do the same amount of damage or lower than any primary in the game. ICT can never hit the same damage cap as any primary in the game.

Ghost has a 4 red attack, and that's what you bring it for. Having a turret will give you extra arc coverage, but if your shooting with the turret on a ghost, you feel bad about it. Same with the Scurgg with its 3 red attack.

But with any ship that has a 2 red attack the turret is simply better, and that makes it a straight upgrade. Saying "Well, in this case..." doesn't make it not so. If it wasn't a straight upgrade, every Y-Wing wouldn't bring a turret. Heck, your argument says Protorps on Redline isn't a straight upgrade, because you need a TL. You have to fly in a way to shoot the torpedoes, especially vs higher ps ships.

Ion Turret /w focus vs 2 Green /w Focus: .699 expected damage.

2 die gun /w focus vs 2 Green /w Focus: .475 expected damage (8% 2 dmg)

You're unlikely to get the damage cap of a weapon. If you're counting on getting max damage you're either desperate (end game/bad position) or setting yourself up for disappointment (MAH DICE).

3 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

You're unlikely to get the damage cap of a weapon. If you're counting on getting max damage you're either desperate (end game/bad position) or setting yourself up for disappointment (MAH DICE).

The downside with Ion as a damaging weapon is that it locks you out of those variance upsets, that lowers your damage output. You get 1 damage more often than a 2 dice gun, but you'll never get 2 or 3 damage(r1) from variance. This lack of potential does hurt. Variance happens. Ion control can be beneficial in itself, but I've been hit by ion and the difference has saved me points and made me not lose the game because that ship never got to half points.

25 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

Ghost has a 4 red attack, and that's what you bring it for. Having a turret will give you extra arc coverage, but if your shooting with the turret on a ghost, you feel bad about it. Same with the Scurgg with its 3 red attack.

"You feel bad about it"

What does that even mean?

25 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

Heck, your argument says Protorps on Redline isn't a straight upgrade, because you need a TL. You have to fly in a way to shoot the torpedoes, especially vs higher ps ships.

No, my argument is that ProTorps aren't a straight upgrade on Redline because after you've spent both charges, you have to reload and miss out on a turn of shooting before you can do it again. And because you can't shoot them at range 1.

And Redline is obviously a fringe case anyway. His ability is really good . So good that he got hit with the nerf bat so hard he's now basically unplayable. His ability basically does make ProTorps a straight upgrade which is why he was a problem and why it's important to avoid doing something even worse in the future by introducing a weapon that totally supplants the primary with zero drawbacks or situational considerations.

25 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

Ion Turret /w focus vs 2 Green /w Focus: .699 expected damage.

2 die gun /w focus vs 2 Green /w Focus: .475 expected damage (8% 2 dmg)

Sure, if you cherry pick your scenario and look at data in a limited way, you can back up any argument.

I can do the same.

The same comparison, but at range 1.

Ion Turret with focus vs 2 green with focus: 0.873 expected damage

2 dice primary with focus vs 2 green with focus: 1.074 expected damage

Sure, the ICT has a better chance of also landing an ion token here, but that's only situationally beneficial.

Oh, and even at range 2, if the defender isn't focused, the 2 dice primary actually has a fractionally higher expected damage too.

And to go back to the key feature that turrets can't shoot at range 3, it is important as part of their balance and it isn't something you can ignore by saying 'proper range management'. Sometimes you want to keep your ships at range 3 so that they benefit from the defensive bonus too. ICT forces you into a decision - stay at range 3 and try to get arc with the primary, as the turret can't shoot, or close to range 2 to open up ICT but risk being hit in return. It also means it's harder to trigger things like Trick Shot, as it's easier to position an obstacle between you the further out you are.

ICT is an upgrade. It makes the Y-Wing better, of course it does. That's why it costs points. Extra arc coverage is a big benefit, no doubt. But it isn't the Y-Wing's primary but better. It isn't something you can choose to shoot in every situation you can shoot the primary and have a better result. It isn't the Y-Wing's primary in all functions but with an extra die and a hit to crit effect. It isn't 1e Mangler Cannon.

13 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

The one I had proposed before was a full damage cannon, but the defender after the neutralize results step can cancel down to 1 hit result (crit cancel first), but for each hit or crit cancelled the receive 1 stress. That way the stress is a choice and not automatically put on.

This is good.

"After the Neutralize Results step, if the attack hit, the defender can choose to receive 1 or more stress token to cancel the same number of [hit]/[crit] result.
If all results are canceled, the defender receive 1 stress token."

Defender will almost alway choose to cancel [crit] fisrt, so no need to specify it.

Defender can cancel all hit, but will receive an extra stress for that.
I don't know any pilot that want multiple stress, so that should only be used to save a dying ship.
This mean you don't always want to use this weapon.

I'm not certain the timing is perfect.
I dont like that it is triggered after reinforce, but this avoid timing confusion with reinforce and crackshot.

11 minutes ago, NerroSama said:

"After the Neutralize Results step, if the attack hit, the defender can choose to receive 1 or more stress token to cancel the same number of [hit]/[crit] result.

If all results are canceled, the defender receive 1 stress token."

Neutered too far. That opens it up to any number of free cancels as long as you accept 1 hit. "3 crits and a hit, oh I blanked out, guess I'll cancel those 3 crits and take a hit, and not be stressed."

1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:

Neutered too far. That opens it up to any number of free cancels as long as you accept 1 hit. "3 crits and a hit, oh I blanked out, guess I'll cancel those 3 crits and take a hit, and not be stressed."

I'm not certain you understand, perhaps I poorly explained how the cancelling would work. Let me clarify. After the nuetralize results step, for each result you cancel, you get a stress. If you cancelled those 3 crits, you would get a stress for each one, and then take that hit.

Yes, there is 2 step.

First, you can take stress to cancel a matching number of result.
Then, if you canceled everything, you take 1 extra stress.