In 1.0, these weapons (torpedoes & cannon) had a cost of 2, (4 in 2.0 numbers) an attack value of 3, and did one damage and a stress with all other results cancelled if they hit.

How would these possibly benefit the 2.0 game?

1) In an Ace and Force User heavy meta, might tamp down their action economy a bit.

2) Stay with me on this because I know some heads blow up at the premise; Flechette Turrets. Yeah, I just proposed that. Could be an upgrade that helps turret carriers have bit more utility.

3) Scum needs love, at least something that helps them with faction identity. Let them have it as something exclusive. F rom the WikiPedia Entry; "The use of flechettes .... .... has been controversial, and is considered by some to be a human rights violation." Sounds scummy. I'm just saying.

4) Cannons and turrets have been kinda blah so far after nearly a year and a half of 2.0. Spice it up, yo.

So yeah, that's my take for now. I think they can be introduced conditionally back into the game. Are they NPE? Perhaps, to a point. FFG wants stress to be mainly something the controlling players decides obviously in second edition. But price them at 8 points+ and see how they play out. There's a need methinks.

Cheers

Back in the days when Bro Bots ruled the land, Flechette Torps is what always won me the match. One Bot would bait, but if you Stressed it with Flachette Torps, they couldn't S-loop out of there. My ships would block one and cripple it by the end if the 2nd turn if shooting. I beat every Bro Bot with this tactic back in the day.

Stressing the right person at the right time can win you the game.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Back in the days when Bro Bots ruled the land, Flechette Torps is what always won me the match. One Bot would bait, but if you Stressed it with Flachette Torps, they couldn't S-loop out of there. My ships would block one and cripple it by the end if the 2nd turn if shooting. I beat every Bro Bot with this tactic back in the day.

Stressing the right person at the right time can win you the game.

Totally. What's ironic is that Brobots Iggy B+ or Scyks would get a decent boost from flechettes---these are two ships in particular that just haven't crossed over into 2.0 successfully very well. T-70s, with their many named aces not named Poe, could also draw some juice on adding it. My main worry is B-Wings with the new configs, which is why I propose Scum only.

From Wookipedia:

Quote

The flechette torpedo was a new weapon developed for the Battle of the Corellian Queen. The projectiles were loaded with jagged bits of durasteel packed around a core of conventional explosive. The shells would detonate and in effect become a debris field for incoming TIE Defenders, not equipped with particle shields to defend against material objects.

Idea:

Attack: 3
Charges: 2
Range: 2-3
Attack ([lock]): Spend 1 [charge]. After this attack hits, you must place 1 debris field marker at range 0 of the defender.

1 minute ago, Singulativ said:

From Wookipedia:

Idea:

Attack: 3
Charges: 2
Range: 2-3
Attack ([lock]): Spend 1 [charge]. After this attack hits, you must place 1 debris field marker at range 0 of the defender.

Well researched, sir. Aren't we all suckers for canonical explanations?

2 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Well researched, sir. Aren't we all suckers for canonical explanations?

Technically it isn't canon 😉

Definitely no weaponised stress please.

And no special weapons that are just better than using a primary like the 1e Mangler Cannon.

If flechette weapons come back, they'd need to be changed in some way.

I'd probably use something like plasma torpedoes as a starter, which are weapons designed to be good against shields, and maybe look to make flechette weapons good against hull (sharp fragments shredding armour, but being deflected by shields).

Maybe 3 attack, cancel results past the first and then after neutralise results, if the attack has hit add a crit result?

Or maybe make the condition to add the crit be if the defender is unshielded?

10 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Definitely no weaponised stress please.

And no special weapons that are just better than using a primary like the 1e Mangler Cannon.

If flechette weapons come back, they'd need to be changed in some way.

I'd probably use something like plasma torpedoes as a starter, which are weapons designed to be good against shields, and maybe look to make flechette weapons good against hull (sharp fragments shredding armour, but being deflected by shields).

Maybe 3 attack, cancel results past the first and then after neutralise results, if the attack has hit add a crit result?

Or maybe make the condition to add the crit be if the defender is unshielded?

That's some inventive design space ideas. Good out of the box thinking. Could certainly make those weapons more punishing in late game once shields are gone. That's an intriguing way to invite new tactics.

The counter though of weaponized stress, albeit perhaps tightly limited either in total upgrade count (limit 2) or Scum faction identity to Ace Play and Force Users, is possibly a better rock to their paper / scissors.

36 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

And no special weapons that are just better than using a primary like the 1e Mangler Cannon.

All Missiles are better than primary for anyone with 2 Attack dice.

34 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

All Missiles are better than primary for anyone with 2 Attack dice.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

And no special weapons that are just better than using a primary like the 1e Mangler Cannon.

And Protorps are a better special weapon than any primary.

And Dorsal Turret is a better secondary than primary on any ship not named the ghost.

Ion turret is mathematically better than any primary that it can be equipped on, except the ghost & Scurgg .

edit: clarifying Ion Turret instead of just Ion and that the scurgg exists

44 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Definitely no weaponised stress please.

And no special weapons that are just better than using a primary like the 1e Mangler Cannon.

If flechette weapons come back, they'd need to be changed in some way.

I'd probably use something like plasma torpedoes as a starter, which are weapons designed to be good against shields, and maybe look to make flechette weapons good against hull (sharp fragments shredding armour, but being deflected by shields).

Maybe 3 attack, cancel results past the first and then after neutralise results, if the attack has hit add a crit result?

Or maybe make the condition to add the crit be if the defender is unshielded?

Definitely don't want weaponized stress either, though I do think that Sabine, Phasma, Assajj, and RCC are acceptable forms.

Interesting note making it good against hull: They tried that in 1st edition by only applying the stress if the defender's hull value was 4 or greater.

Honestly though, the Ion Cannon's mechanic is so bad at dealing ions, what if something like it were used:

Front attack, range 1-2, 2 dice, the first result deals a crit, results after that deal stress? Kinda mean but even reinforcing ships have a good chance against it at any range but 1. You could even make it bullseye range 1-2 to make it more balanced, but then it gets kind of close to worthless...

19 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

All Missiles are better than primary for anyone with 2 Attack dice.

Sorry, I was rushing that post a little and doing it on mobile.

Missiles are fine because they're charge limited. I should have said no cannons or turrets that are straight up better than using primaries. Things like ICT where you throw more dice but have a damage cap and chance to do another effect are fine.

So far FFG have stuck to that rule. The only border exception is Autoblasters, but that's only better in specific, kinda hard to achieve circumstances, which again is fine.

It's 1e Mangler cannon I'm trying to avoid. It's just not an interesting design space for cannons, which I see as being a means to give ships more options rather than more dice.

10 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

And Protorps are a better special weapon than any primary.

And Dorsal Turret is a better secondary than primary on any ship not named the ghost.

Ion is mathematically better than any primary that it can be equipped on, except the ghost.

As I said, I misspoke while rushing.

Charge ordnance is obviously fine.

Neither Dorsal or Ion can be considered a straight upgrade when neither are capable of shooting at range 3. That's their trade off for the utility of an extra arc.

And like I said, Ion throwing more dice but being damage capped is not a straight upgrade. Yes, you might be more mathematically likely to do 1 damage, which is a great option to explore. But it's mathematically impossible to do 2 or even 3 damage, which a primary weapon can potentially do at range 1. Therefore ICT is a situational upgrade, not a straight one.

I don't see how Dorsal is an upgrade in the slightest except for the extra arc coverage. It's the same number of dice, but it can't shoot at range 3.

6 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

Ion is mathematically better than any primary that it can be equipped on, except the ghost.

... Scurrg (Turret), Firespray (Cannon), scum Aggressor (Cannon), Misthunter titled G1-A (Cannon). I smell a hardline Reb faction dedicate...

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

... Scurrg (Turret), Firespray (Cannon), scum Aggressor (Cannon), Misthunter titled G1-A (Cannon). I smell a hardline Reb faction dedicate...

Meant Turret, and I forgot about the Scurrg, the poor thing.

I think Flechette Torpedoes of some stripe could be acceptable,* but I'm not into Cannon/Turret. If it's a charge-based, lock-limited weapon I don't mind getting a bit more stress-control into the game, but I don't think these things ought to be firing every turn without charges or Locks.

* Something like: 3 dice, 2 charges, range 2-3, Attack (Lock). If this attack hits and the defender is not stressed, you must spend 1 Hit/Crit result to inflict 1 stress on the defender. All other Hit/Crit results inflict damage normally.

16 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I don't see how Dorsal is an upgrade in the slightest except for the extra arc coverage . It's the same number of dice, but it can't shoot at range 3.

Not being capped to front arc is what makes it a straight upgrade. Side Arc's have almost 20 degrees more coverage (roughly 80 degree front vs 100 degree side arcs), and not being forced to aim at a ship to shoot it increases time on target. Missing R3 can be painful, but with proper range management minimizes the loss.

1 minute ago, Smikies02 said:

Not being capped to front arc is what makes it a straight upgrade. Side Arc's have almost 20 degrees more coverage (roughly 80 degree front vs 100 degree side arcs), and not being forced to aim at a ship to shoot it increases time on target. Missing R3 can be painful, but with proper range management minimizes the loss.

But... it's not a straight upgrade.

That's my point. It's an additional option, but it's not just an upgrade that says here's your primary but better. You don't even apply your own logic to your own argument. If simply having an extra arc is a straight upgrade, then surely the Ghost would count as benefiting too?

If you have to employ 'proper range management' to use an upgrade, then it's not simply better. It requires the player to be able to fly the ship in such a way that the upgrade is useful.

And again, Dorsal will only ever do the same amount of damage or lower than any primary in the game. ICT can never hit the same damage cap as any primary in the game.

The only thing I'm trying to avoid is an upgrade that turns a ship that with a 2 attack front arc that can shoot range 1-3 with appropriate range bonuses into a ship with a with a 3 attack front arc that can shoot range 1-3 with appropriate bonuses. In other words, exactly what Mangler Cannon did in 1e (and at least had MC had the very slight trade off that you lost your range 1 bonus but denied them the range 3, that wouldn't be the case in 2e).

How is that hard to understand? I've said it like three times now.

Boom:

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

* Something like: 3 dice, 2 charges, range 2-3, Attack (Lock). If this attack hits and the defender is not stressed, you must spend 1 Hit/Crit result to inflict 1 stress on the defender. All other Hit/Crit results inflict damage normally.

Hmm. Non ordinance version maybe along these lines (for either Cannon or Turret): 3 dice, range 2-3, "Attack (Focus or Calculate): Spend 1 Focus or Calculate Token. If this attack hits and the defender is not stressed, you must spend 1 Hit or Crit result to inflict 1 stress on the defender. All other Hit/Crit results inflict damage normally. This attack cannot be modified by other effects.

3 minutes ago, ImperialAce95 said:

Boom:

Or this could work.

1 hour ago, ImperialAce95 said:

Boom:

Make it limited (up to 2 pips, probably), especially the cannon. You don’t want to set up cheap generics that start a crit cascade that also deals strain.

edit: I should have commented that these seem surprisingly reasonable for anything being posted on the forums. Nice!

Tangentially related, but man, gimme some ordnance that requires both the appropriate weapon slot and also an illicit, and you just might finally pull me into scum.

[Edit] Even better, give me an illicit jury-rigged capital ship battery that provides a small amount of energy and gimme a cannon that needs energy to fire.

I'd rather have weaponized stress than tractor mechanics.

Back in the Dark Times (before the Phantom Nerf), my anti-Phantom tech was Nera Dantels with Flechette Torps, with Swam Tactics Roark Garnett as wingman. It gave a 360-degree stress turret that could prevent Whisper from cloaking after shooting so she was easy to kill. Sadly, it suffered to the Fat Turrets that were the meta counter to Phantoms.

I miss Nera and her flechette torps.

1 hour ago, Hawkstrike said:

I'd rather have weaponized stress than tractor mechanics.

Seems likely Tractor's about to be nerfed again. My guess: You have to spend the tractor tokens to do the repositioning.

Makes bugs a little better but Ensnare a lot worse. Also makes Tractor a little worse in general, which I'm totally okay with.

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Honestly though, the Ion Cannon's mechanic is so bad at dealing ions, what if something like it were used:

Front attack, range 1-2, 2 dice, the first result deals a crit, results after that deal stress? Kinda mean but even reinforcing ships have a good chance against it at any range but 1. You could even make it bullseye range 1-2 to make it more balanced, but then it gets kind of close to worthless...

The one I had proposed before was a full damage cannon, but the defender after the neutralize results step can cancel down to 1 hit result (crit cancel first), but for each hit or crit cancelled the receive 1 stress. That way the stress is a choice and not automatically put on.