74-Z Speeder Bikes VS BARC Speeder naked VS BARC Speeder equipped : who's the best for its value ?

I like the fact that the 74-Z Speeder Bikes are handy as they are, no need to further equip them. And straight from the box, they have 2 attacks with Impact 1. Juicy.

They also have the surge bonus on defense, while the BARC has red defense dices... I am not quite sure what is statistically the best ?

But since I'm a totally new player and I haven't play around with them yet, the best is to have your insight on that matter... what do you like the best and why ? or to say it differently, which one has the best value for its cost ?

At 75 points, it's kind of a wash and probably depends on player preference.

The 74z has an expected health of 9 (adjusted for saving throws) while the BARC has an expected health of 10. In other words, the red die, 5 health is slightly better than the 6 health, white-surge. This boost in health gets even bigger when you realize that at 3 damage, the bikes lose halve of their offense, while the BARC, at the worst, will lose a die or two, and only then on an unlucky roll. Also, since the damage threshold is on red dice rather than white, the BARC will live a little longer before it happens, and generally it isn't a big deal, while for the bikes it is always devastating.

As for offense, the bikes clearly have the better offense early, but strangely, the BARC does after 3 wounds have been taken (with the naked setup).

In short, they're in different factions, and pretty much a wash as far as the numbers go. The 74z are better alpha strikers but die quicker and lose their offense pretty quickly, while the BARC can take a bit more bunch although doesn't hit as hard. Also, if you have Aggressive Tactics, you can get the BARC a surge for defense. Hope that helps!

17 hours ago, Katsutoshi said:

They also have the surge bonus on defense, while the BARC has red defense dices... I am not quite sure what is statistically the best ?

Dice probabilities:

Attack:

White 2/8

White+Surge 3/8

Black 4/8

Black+Surge 5/8

Red 6/8

Red+Surge 7/8

Defense:

White 1/6

White+Surge 2/6

Red 3/6

Red+Surge 4/6

Thanks both of you for your insight.

So is it to say that the BARC Speeder, once equipped, is a better option than the 74-Z Speeder Bikes ? More durability, more lasting firepower... and more overall firepower. All that for roughly 20-25 more points (depending on the gun chosen by the player) ?

The BARC isn't really more durable than the bikes. On paper it is, but on the field it is way easier to get heavy cover with the bikes than with the BARC speeder. Since the bike has 2 models it is easier to get one of them behind cover or on a roof (cohesion).

Basically you have to ask yourself if one less speed, a bigger base and no damage drop off on half the wounds is worth 20 points...

6 minutes ago, Staelwulf said:

The BARC isn't really more durable than the bikes. On paper it is, but on the field it is way easier to get heavy cover with the bikes than with the BARC speeder. Since the bike has 2 models it is easier to get one of them behind cover or on a roof (cohesion).

Basically you have to ask yourself if one less speed, a bigger base and no damage drop off on half the wounds is worth 20 points...

Naked barcs are the same speed as speeder bikes

In my opinion, what makes the BARC valuable is the ability to add a gunner with a variety of weapons to it, even with the decreased speed. It provides a mobile weapons platform that can cover ground if it needs to. Naked BARC versus Naked 74-Z, the 2 smaller based models with twice the attack dice and the ability to get into cover easier makes the 74-Zs slightly better. However, when you add the rocket launcher to the BARC, which does not exhaust and can fire when the vehicle moves, gives the BARC some serious bite.

The 74-Zs can also split fire right out of the box. With the BARC you have to upgrade to a gunner.

I do wish the 74-Z could have long rang comlink and comms Jammer at the same time.

1 hour ago, chr335 said:

Naked barcs are the same speed as speeder bikes

Noone in his right mind plays the BARC without gunner. Without gunner the BARC is overprized. That's why I said 20 points more than speederbikes and 1 less speed. That includes a cheap gunner.

1 hour ago, Tri3 said:

The 74-Zs can also split fire right out of the box. With the BARC you have to upgrade to a gunner.

I do wish the 74-Z could have long rang comlink and comms Jammer at the same time.

The BARC has two weapon profiles with the same range and Arsenal 2 , so you do not have to upgrade it to be able to split fire.

1 hour ago, Staelwulf said:

Noone in his right mind plays the BARC without gunner. Without gunner the BARC is overprized. That's why I said 20 points more than speederbikes and 1 less speed. That includes a cheap gunner.

In the handful of games I have used a BARC I found the stock to be at least as effective, as flanking unit, as one with an upgrade. They have different targets depending on loadout, obviously, but for those of us who have no wish to spam Phase I troopers they are both tools that can be used.

So I am confused how is it easier to get a speeder bike into cover easier then a naked Barc?

2 minutes ago, chr335 said:

So I am confused how is it easier to get a speeder bike into cover easier then a naked Barc?

Because the 74-Z unit is two models instead of one. Each has a smaller base as well. Since you only move the Unit Leader of the 74-Z and then place the second model in coherence you can place it completely out of line of sight of an enemy unit. This obscures "at least half" of a unit, providing cover to the entire unit.

2 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

Because the 74-Z unit is two models instead of one. Each has a smaller base as well. Since you only move the Unit Leader of the 74-Z and then place the second model in coherence you can place it completely out of line of sight of an enemy unit. This obscures "at least half" of a unit, providing cover to the entire unit.

But the 74-Z bikes have cover 1, so light cover for them is heavy cover.

35 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

But the 74-Z bikes have cover 1, so light cover for them is heavy cover.

So does the BARC

1 hour ago, SoonerTed said:

But the 74-Z bikes have cover 1, so light cover for them is heavy cover.

That doesn't really have any bearing on what he was saying.

On 1/7/2020 at 12:23 PM, SirCormac said:

At 75 points, it's kind of a wash and probably depends on player preference.

The 74z has an expected health of 9 (adjusted for saving throws) while the BARC has an expected health of 10. In other words, the red die, 5 health is slightly better than the 6 health, white-surge. This boost in health gets even bigger when you realize that at 3 damage, the bikes lose halve of their offense, while the BARC, at the worst, will lose a die or two, and only then on an unlucky roll. Also, since the damage threshold is on red dice rather than white, the BARC will live a little longer before it happens, and generally it isn't a big deal, while for the bikes it is always devastating.

As for offense, the bikes clearly have the better offense early, but strangely, the BARC does after 3 wounds have been taken (with the naked setup).

In short, they're in different factions, and pretty much a wash as far as the numbers go. The 74z are better alpha strikers but die quicker and lose their offense pretty quickly, while the BARC can take a bit more bunch although doesn't hit as hard. Also, if you have Aggressive Tactics, you can get the BARC a surge for defense. Hope that helps!

Though some of what you say is accurate, your assessment seems to be from the point of view of an imperial player, so I think your opinion holds the, grass being greener on the Republic side, view point.

I have played Imperial and Republic and I can tell you both units leave the board just as quickly. There have been times where saves were made repeatedly by either unit, but generally both units don’t have a lot of staying power.
As for losing a mini (bikes) as opposed to hitting the damage threshold, the BARC can also lose an action when it reaches its threshold. A result that can be arguably bad as you can’t get an aim or dodge if needed. The only outcome that is not bad after the threshold is met, would be the Disabled result (needing to spend two actions for a move when you have a mandatory move makes that result almost pointless). It is bad to have your attack dice pool cut in half, but it’s only slightly worse than what happens to the BARC, this isn’t a matter of what happens to one unit when it is damaged being so much better than the other unit, getting damagedsucks for both units. Also don’t discount the ability for those bikes to be able to hide a mini behind LoS blocking terrain as others mentioned. Having heavy cover will increase the bikes longevity.

Someone also mentioned the BARCs ability to take different weapons and that would make it a useful unit, but the problem there is that most players end up taking the cheapest crew options since the Republic doesn’t have a lot of leftover points and can only get up to 8 activations as it is. All those other crew options cost a lot more points.

As for firepower, I’d have to say that the BARC is slightly better (an extra white die), but only with crew upgrade and that doesn’t take into count the Impact 2 the bikes get (at no extra cost). If you compare the naked BARC to the naked bikes, bikes are just better (by a couple of dice - 1 red & 1 white and Impact 2).

Overall the BARC is overpriced by about 10 points in comparison to the bikes. All the talk about effective health means nothing, if you roll badly, and if that happens, you’ll want 6 health, not 5. The BARC might be better than the bikes when it has crew, but it requires crew upgrades that are not cheap and the problem is that the price is higher than the value, meaning the BARC might be better (with crew), but the point cost is too high for how much better it is (not a lot better). Comparing naked units, the bikes are better hands down (as I mentioned the BARC is just over priced).
Having played both, if I had a choice of which of the two to use with my faction, I would pick bikes without hesitation.