12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

a thread for another day Precog Vader is busted beyond belief

So.... this is speaking from a position of ignorance.

Is he really that bad? Darth Vader/Precognitive Reflexes is 80 points with no further upgrades, and using his force ability shuts down both his pilot ability and afterburners (if you've taken them).

I get that it's a 19 point saving over Supernatural Reflexes, and you can use if to boost-then-straight or boost-then-bank without damaging yourself, but is it really that good?

Yes he is really that good. Im not even going to attempt to explain why. Monitor this post point change.

It just feels like without the ability to do any dice-modifying actions or shift your advanced targeting computer around you'll run out of steam with your dice a bit too quickly.

I haven't seen him used, so I guess my bad. The force power is obviously good but I'm not sure why he's lifted beyond good to terrifying.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It just feels like without the ability to do any dice-modifying actions or shift your advanced targeting computer around you'll run out of steam with your dice a bit too quickly.

I haven't seen him used, so I guess my bad. The force power is obviously good but I'm not sure why he's lifted beyond good to terrifying.

That just means you can't use it every turn in the same fashion as SNR, but with FCS, your damage doesn't change unless you kill your target or can't line up on the locked ship. It is a downside, but the upside is that your finisher ace is significantly harder to trap and/or deal with, so still worth it depending on how the rest of the squad points line up.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It just feels like without the ability to do any dice-modifying actions or shift your advanced targeting computer around you'll run out of steam with your dice a bit too quickly.

I haven't seen him used, so I guess my bad. The force power is obviously good but I'm not sure why he's lifted beyond good to terrifying.

Its more about not being able to shoot him. I've toyed around with precog vader, and I set a 5 straight toward my enemy ship while I flank with another ship. If the enemy goes for the flanking ship, I just let Vader 5 straight and can afterburner to range 1 behind them. If the enemy comes for vader, I can boost in either direction and 5 straight and they get no shot. It is quite terrifying for the opponent. Get attacked range 1 by Vader, or get no shot. Those are your options. Add in dodgy ships like Soontir and GI (or adv sensors Rex like I was using) and it really becomes a headache.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

That just means you can't use it every turn in the same fashion as SNR

You could never use SNR every turn either; or if you do you get 3 uses out of Vader's ability or force mods for the whole game .

Precog is even less good.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Yes he is really that good. Im not even going to attempt to explain why. Monitor this post point change.

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor	53
Ship Total: 53
Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	67
Precognitive Reflexes	13
Fire-Control System	2
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 88
Half Points: 44 Threshold: 3
Grand Inquisitor — TIE Advanced v1	52
Ship Total: 52
Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

Looks like a super fun list to me. Okay it's pretty squirrely but I see it going up by 5-10 points at the adjustment:

• 2-3 to Soontir
• 3 or so to Vader
• 2 or so to Quiz

Afterburners probably by initiative

All this means something's gotta give: Either you lose your entire bid, or Vader loses FCS and AB... And Soontir/Quiz with no upgrades aren't crazy kinds of good either: Soontir's too squishy and can't re-roll anything, Quiz loses force whenever he wants the third die so he doesn't hit very hard. Vader's clearly the monster of this list but will almost always be both force-starved and action-starved. Not the best combo for him anyway IMO.

And okay I do agree that generally pre-maneuver reposition isn't a great experience for the opponent, but remember that:

a) Vader can't pre-move boost, so his maneuver doesn't change by much

b) No bendy barrel roll like Guri so his end position is still pretty similar

c) Costs a force to use so it's really not sustainable

d) Absolutely and totally shuts down his ability and his normal action, leaving him totally modless and often without ability to a lock he needs.

It seems like it could be good, but doesn't seem anywhere near broken or even OP in my estimation, other than the potential 3 points Vader ought to be bumped regardless of the combo.

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

a) Vader can't pre-move boost, so his maneuver doesn't change by much

He can boost, just gets a strain token:

12 minutes ago, wurms said:

He can boost, just gets a strain token:

Good catch.

Still a very significant drawback, especially with no mods.

So I’ll temper what I said before; he’s pretty strong. But I still can’t see it as truly abusive, especially if costs change as expected.

Also remember there’s an additional cost of bringing the bid. That’s one reason why Oli’s list was so great at Worlds. By having Passive Sensors, it eliminated the need for a bid then brought in Whisper that doesn’t need the bid as well. If you bring Precognitive, then you should bring other pilots that need a bid such as Duchess and Soontir. It starts forcing your list building in certain ways.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Still a very significant drawback, especially with no mods.

This reminds me when people say, “just block so they’ll have no mods”. Wasn’t true in 1.0 with Palpatine, mindlink, etc, and not true in 2.0 with force.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

This reminds me when people say, “just block so they’ll have no mods”. Wasn’t true in 1.0 with Palpatine, mindlink, etc, and not true in 2.0 with force.

He has precog, multi-actions, or mods. Never more than one or two. Force doesn't regen fast and with Precog he doesn't have Hate. It is a very limited commodity, especially on Vader. He can't just run away to recharge like the Jedi can.

Everyone acts like force users can use all their force every turn but it's just so entirely far from being nearly true. On average you can use all your force one turn per game. The rest of the time you average out to one per turn. On the balance, Precog means no mods, and with the strain that means a missed placement is absolutely devastating for Vader.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The rest of the time you average out to one per turn.

That’s still extremely powerful.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

That’s still extremely powerful.

I don't care to disagree with you – I'm not saying it isn't; Vader should cost 70.

I'm saying that doesn't make Precog Vader more busted than Vader already as-is.

Haven't put it on the table (I just don't think it'd be fun for my opponents, and I prefer to spend my NPE budget on different stuff), but it seems like the 2nd most important upgrade on Precog Vader, and the reason that Advanced Sensors Vader didn't work, is Fire Control System. It makes Vader less opportunistic, but keeping locks from one turn to the next allows enough action economy for the bid to not-be-hopeless.

The thing which strikes me is that, while PCR Vader has clear weaknesses (expensive, no Sense, requires a bid, anti-synergy with pilot ability), those times you can use PCR to put yourself into the right position and out of the wrong one seem like they could be game defining.

Is he Guri? Not really, but he's also 16 points cheaper than Guri. Which, however, is roughly the amount she spends going from 5 HP to 7 HP. Still, I think he's nasty in the same way that most ships with massive pre-dial maneuverability are nasty.

What the good Guri build?

I find you can burn down aces lists with some good bulk firepower if played cautiously.

Whether he's broken or not, I'll leave to others, but he is exceptionally good.

I've found that the main reason for this is it's verging on 100pt, with a reasonable bid, that is insanely hard to actually kill and earn enough points from. He wins games less by being destructive and much more by just holding points, running away and being occasionally scary.

Precog limits him in a bunch of ways that take him away from the blunt instrument, rock up and kill stuff role he usually has. Instead, it makes him a proper kill stuff when I can and point fortress till time cowardly ace.

I don't think it turns him into a squirrelly Duchess/Soontir/Jedi ace at all, his dial is too limited. But fly him more cautiously, in the right mix, and you do have one of the best fortresses points can buy. This is of dubious merit.

A few moves really stand out- boost>5 straight is just all kinds of nope. If in doubt, dial a 5 and say goodbye. Roll>2 hard, you just got punked in the ear by knife fight Vader. Boost>2 bank, slipnslide those obstacles with no strain.

FCS is mandatory. Which obviously makes target selection more of an issue. I've had to take non-ATC powered shots against lower init pilots, simply because I had to dodge away from the one I set up. This doesn't seem to ever happen without Precog.

Squad wise, you have less points to spend on real damage dealers, which you need more than you do with non-precog Vader. He requires a decent bid and, at 90pt+, it's super necessary to set him up with an eye for the bail. Then, if they go all in on him, it's considerably harder to set him up with his regular lockfocusmutilate. He cant flip and rejoin the fight so easily as other aces and can end up just having to keep running.

He can still be boxed and caught, if they decide to make it a full on priority, it's not a win button. So his squadmates are very much required to buy him space and time, or seriously punish the Vader focus. He can draw that focus for a decent amount of time, but since he's less able to Duchess/Soontir back onto something with full power in a heartbeat, if the opponent is baiting/threatening/switching you can get very caught out with your squishy wingmen.

It also reduces his force pool considerably, you'll need to use the pre-move to avoid the inevitable triple blanks, then he only has force for eyeballs ofc. You always want a couple force up your sleeve, so it requires extremely careful management or frequent disengages. Neither are major factors for plain Vader.

This all impacts on his offensive power, making him much less of a one man army.

1v1 against a cheaper Anakin is awkward. Dial and stress issues are very not solved.

He is brilliant, but he is very different. I remain extremely unconvinced that it's the most effective or efficient way to run him. He's almost just doing a Soontir job, but for a lot more points. Without the fortress angle, it just wouldn't be worth it.

It did take me several games to get used to the restrictions and actually start making a proper impact with him... since I don't actually like fortressing points and really just want to go I have you now, all the time.

Really good? Yes, yes and yes. Best use? Doubtful, squad building actually matters. He will go up, if Afterburners also get Init scaling, he's gonna be really on the cusp of totally not worth it, if not well over it. At that point, squad balance will be a major headache, no matter how good he is individually.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

What the good Guri build?

Generally this: Outmaneuver, Advanced Sensors, Virago, Shield Upgrade, Afterburners.

How good it is? Well... Guri is potent, but that cost... well... it's an uphill battle.

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

He can still be boxed and caught, if they decide to make it a full on priority, it's not a win button. So his squadmates are very much required to buy him space and time, or seriously punish the Vader focus. He can draw that focus for a decent amount of time, but since he's less able to Duchess/Soontir back onto something with full power in a heartbeat, if the opponent is baiting/threatening/switching you can get very caught out with your squishy wingmen.

What about running some Reapers with Vader? Like, Crack Shot Vermiel and 0-0-0 Vizier. That'd be 50 points each, leaving a 12 point bid, which seems healthy enough. Meanwhile, you'd have a pretty nasty little battering ram, which could also support Vader with coordinate if necessary. Meanwhile, these are ships which can't really safely get ignored.

I know the general Imperial Protocol is to run aces with more aces, but maybe going for a less-subtle puncher like Verimiel could work. Squad has a sweet "Triple V" theme to it, too.

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

if Afterburners also get Init scaling

The only real Initiative-scaling I think makes sense for Afterburners a more Swarm Tactics style scaling (mostly flat, with a bit of a tick up at the end). Nearly no-one takes Afterburners now, except Vader. The price is, frankly, kinda too high at 6 points even for folks like Luke or whatever. However, making it really low-priced at low-init would also probably be a mistake. I don't think they could realistically go lower than 4 points on a lower initiative ship, so where does that leave an almost-unplayed upgrade at Init 5? When it's already rare at 6 points, bringing it up to 8 kills it entirely.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

What the good Guri build?

Generally this: Outmaneuver, Advanced Sensors, Virago, Shield Upgrade, Afterburners.

How good it is? Well... Guri is potent, but that cost... well... it's an uphill battle.

And not I6, which limits how much I'd personally spend on it.

Thank

7 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Some stuff

Thanks. That's a very well-written explanation, and exactly the sort of thing I was after...

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Squad has a sweet "Triple V" theme to it, too.

Like! I think I might do the Reapers differently though, possibly not as efficiently

Absolutely fair points on Burners. I've no solid opinion on it but it's still something I think is possible, as a secondary nerf to Vader and a buff elsewhere.

Vader without it is still viable and very close to actually balanced imo. With a smaĺler price bump to him, he'd still take it 95% of the time ofc, even at 8, but it would leave him as a decent option without, particularly with Precog.

Might be a bit of a can of worms though.

but what if we didn't give aces pre-dial movement?

53 minutes ago, svelok said:

but what if we didn't give aces pre-dial movement?

Then you essentially have soontir fel - who's currently under debate in the other thread ....

2 hours ago, svelok said:

but what if we didn't give aces pre-dial movement?

Then all the actual top tier lists would continue not missing it and the more casual folk that like that sort of thing would have to find something else vaguely inefficient but acceptably nonsense and just suck up their continual defeats to all the well played swarmbeef that will soon be undercosted compared to the much hated and communally over nerfed aces.

Please disregard the same # of genuine facts and data that I just did or my **** take falls apart. It might be difficult, I probably disregarded quite a lot.

19 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

He has precog, multi-actions, or mods. Never more than one or two.

The thing is, moving at I6, he always gets to pick the worst thing for his opponent. So, he sees where you've all gone, then gets to choose whether to not get shot, or stack offense/defense mods.