So just wanted to ask one question here after playing this epic scenario yesterday and we had some issues that we countered along the way or so they seem.

So the idea is that defender will set 7 priority targets in his ships and tries to bring them safely to exit area that is showed in the scenario section. So our defender had Gozanti that had four defenders that had those priority targets in them so he easily won the game protecting his priority targets inside Gozanti and after dropping TIE Defenders out and flying to the exit area. So this was our sense very OP and wanted to ask if this is even allowed?

37 minutes ago, Zazaa32 said:

So our defender had Gozanti that had four defenders that had those priority targets in them so he easily won the game protecting his priority targets inside Gozanti and after dropping TIE Defenders out and flying to the exit area. So this was our sense very OP and wanted to ask if this is even allowed?

The Epic Rules Reference FAQ addresses this.

Q: Can markers (󲐇 or 󲐆) such as the priority target markers from All Wings Reporting In be placed on ships that have been placed in reserve to be placed in the play area “after setup,” such as a ship with Luminous [title] or Boba Fett [crew] equipped?

A: No. Per Objectives, markers that are placed “after placing forces” must be placed on ships in the play area. As “after placing forces” (the timing for distributing the victory counters in All Wings Reporting In) occurs prior to “after setup,” Luminous [title] / Boba Fett [crew]’s ship is still in reserve when the victory counters are placed, so it cannot be selected to carry victory counters.

Based on their answer, docked ships, which are in reserve and not in the play area by definition, cannot carry victory counters either. You're absolutely right that using those ships to carry counters is broken and no fun. Good thing it got addressed.

I just found this under "Objectives" on page 2 of the Epic Rules Reference.

"• If a scenario instructs a player to place a marker on a ship “after placing forces,” the player must choose a ship in the play area and in their deployment area unless the scenario specifically instructs the player to choose a ship in reserve or outside their deployment area."

So I guess that was already in the rules without even needing an FAQ. Yay! (Still not sure if it's in the printed rulebook; I'll have to check when I get home).

But nothing forbids the ships with the objective marker to dock after setup in the first system phase, does it?

6 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

But nothing forbids the ships with the objective marker to dock after setup in the first system phase, does it?

This is true. I can't find any reason that wouldn't work. The TIE defenders would have to be at range 0 during the System Phase. Could they set up at range zero of the Gozanti? I guess they could, and dock during the first System Phase so it's functionally the same thing as starting docked. Disappointing.

I would recommend that ships with victory counters assigned cannot dock. It fundamentally breaks the scenario and is about as close to auto win as you can get.

Before I knew of the rule about assigning victory counters I put a bunch of counters on the Luminous GR-75 and ran it to freedom in two turns (because it deployed outside the deployment area at range 2 of my other friendly ships). It really wasn't even worth the time to setup for that game. Now that has been clarified, but your idea about docking the ships in the first round raises concerns.

And then there are wing leaders which in a lot of ways share similarities with docked ships in their ability to avoid damage. Is it unfair to put victory counters on wing leaders? Eh, I would argue not because you can make the wing split by ionizing or tractoring the wing leader. You can't make docked ships deploy until the carrier ship is destroyed.

20 hours ago, Singulativ said:

But nothing forbids the ships with the objective marker to dock after setup in the first system phase, does it?

There is a rule that stops this and it is also the case for Orbital Re-entry.

ESCAPE [END PHASE]: ONE of the defending team's ships at range 0-1 of each escape edge....

So, only one ship per turn can escape. It is actually a rather elegant solution to the issue. Only one is allowed to leave per turn. I would say if you had a Gozanti full of other ships, the Gozanti couldn't get off the board until all other objective ships were also off. If it went off the board on it's own, it would count as lost.

2 hours ago, heychadwick said:

There is a rule that stops this and it is also the case for Orbital Re-entry.

ESCAPE [END PHASE]: ONE of the defending team's ships at range 0-1 of each escape edge....

So, only one ship per turn can escape. It is actually a rather elegant solution to the issue. Only one is allowed to leave per turn. I would say if you had a Gozanti full of other ships, the Gozanti couldn't get off the board until all other objective ships were also off. If it went off the board on it's own, it would count as lost.

That does not forbid my idea to dock the ships after deployment.

It also does not state what happens to ships with docked ships (and it definitely should).

Kinda the same rule hole as the decision to not emergency deploy docked ships.

Do they count as destroyed/escaped? Are they just gone? My opponent cannot gain (victory) points from something not on the map.

57 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

Kinda the same rule hole as the decision to not emergency deploy docked ships.

I don't think you can (or should I say "may"?) choose not to emergency deploy. The beginning of the rules reference defines "may "can" and "must".

Can is defined as "having the capacity to do something" and the rules go on to explain "The ship always applies this effect as the effect is not optional but instead an expanded capability."

Under "Dock" on RR p. 10 it says "If a carrier ship is destroyed, before the carrier is removed from the play
area, any docked ships can emergency deploy from their carrier."

So what does can mean here? It means emergency deployment is not optional, but allows a docked ship to deploy outside of the usual System Phase.

57 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

It also does not state what happens to ships with docked ships (and it definitely should).

Do they count as destroyed/escaped? Are they just gone? My opponent cannot gain (victory) points from something not on the map.

I assume you mean a carrier ship that escapes with docked ships still aboard. Yeah, that should be addressed. There are so many ways to interpret that. I don't they earn you points, I agree with you there, but do they count as destroyed or are they still in reserve? It's just not clear.

12 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Can is defined as "having the capacity to do something" and the rules go on to explain "The ship always applies this effect as the effect is not optional but instead an expanded capability."

Interesting that part was missed in some other thread earlier...

49 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

That does not forbid my idea to dock the ships after deployment.

It also does not state what happens to ships with docked ships (and it definitely should).

Kinda the same rule hole as the decision to not emergency deploy docked ships.

Do they count as destroyed/escaped? Are they just gone? My opponent cannot gain (victory) points from something not on the map.

25 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I assume you mean a carrier ship that escapes with docked ships still aboard. Yeah, that should be addressed. There are so many ways to interpret that. I don't they earn you points, I agree with you there, but do they count as destroyed or are they still in reserve? It's just not clear.

Actually, the main rules for Epic Battles addresses it under the CASUALTIES section. Any ship that leaves the board not part of a victory condition is considered "fled" and counts as a casualty.

It also says under the SPECIAL RULES section under DEATRUCTION! that any ship that is destroyed or fled gives the other side victory points.

So, if a Gozanti loaded with objective ships goes off the board, only 1 ship can count as "escaping" (not counting as a casualty and earning the points for the victory condition). All other ships count as destroyed.

So, in your situation the person who flew the Gozanti off the board lost pretty hard.

I think all the cases are actually handled in the rules, but you just have to know where to look.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Actually, the main rules for Epic Battles addresses it under the CASUALTIES section. Any ship that leaves the board not part of a victory condition is considered "fled" and counts as a casualty.

It also says under the SPECIAL RULES section under DEATRUCTION! that any ship that is destroyed or fled gives the other side victory points.

But the other ships did not flee, because they did not leave the board as part of a maneuver.

They are still in reserve and therefore still part of ther game (although they don't have any legal way to enter the map anymore after the carrier escaped).

37 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

But the other ships did not flee, because they did not leave the board as part of a maneuver.

They are still in reserve and therefore still part of ther game (although they don't have any legal way to enter the map anymore after the carrier escaped).

You really have a rules lawyer here, don't you?

I would argue that the docked ships DID leave the board due to a maneuver.....the main ship.

So, going with options to avoid stupid turtling I would add to the scenario rules:

Quote

Each standard ship may have up to 2 [vp]; each huge ship may have up to 4 [vp]. Priority targets cannot dock or otherwise be placed in reserve.

I would just say that ships that are docked when the main ship leaves the board are counted as fled.

I have no problem with ships that are holding VPs to dock. It means fewer defenders on the board and easier to destroy the main ship. If destroyed, all ships on it take damage. The docked ships forgo any attacks when they could add them to help out. It is much easier for the attacker to converge on the huge ship and concentrate their attacks. Those things get burnt down fast like that.

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

From the FAQ in the Epic Battles Rules Reference (page 8):

"Q: Q: If a ship is docked to a ship that escapes, does the docked ship also escape?
A: Yes."

That help?

As expected and stupid me forgetting to look into the FAQ.

Dang, that means the person who does that gets all the VP! I'm a hit shocked.

Means you need to focus fire on the big guy!

I'm looking at the timing, and it would be three rounds before the first defender could escape.

Round 1: all four of them dock. Gozanti performs 4-straight.

Round 2: one TIE defender deploys with a 5-straight (boost optional). Gozanti does another 4-straight.

Round 3: another TIE defender deploys. First TIE defender dials a maneuver that lands it at range 1 of the escape edge. Gozanti continues speeding towards the exit. First defender escapes during the end phase.

By this point the Gozanti should be destroyed, scattering the remaining two docked defenders. Depending on how aggressively the wings have closed in, the defenders may be able to deploy out the back and have a straight shot to the opposite board edge. It does look really one-sided for the defenders.

--

As an aside, it looks so darn thematic! Rebels have discovered the location of new starfighter prototypes in transit, and setup an ambush. The prototypes must escape to deliver their flight test data to Imperial command. The Rebels and their allies will stop at nothing to neutralize the prototypes in the hopes that they can soon discover the location of the production facility and conduct a full offensive.

This mission then leads into Strategic Salvo, where the Rebels are attackers if they win on All Wings Report In! but must defend their base against these very prototypes should the TIE defender prototypes escape. Sounds so cool! Wish it were more balanced.

@Zazaa32 how many wings did you have on the board? Just curious because the more wings, the bigger advantage the attackers have. Each wing is worth up to 200 points, and each additional wing beyond the second adds 50 points to the defending squad.

2 wings = 400 vs. 500 points

3 wings = 600 vs. 550 points

4 wings = 800 vs. 600 points

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41 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Dang, that means the person who does that gets all the VP! I'm a hit shocked.

Means you need to focus fire on the big guy!

I'm not so sure about that. If the carrier escapes, all the others are treated as escaping, but you're limited to only one ship with a victory token escaping that way per round. So first bit: if the Gozanti has no victory counters, it's not allowed to escape. Indeed, if it flew off the board, it would be treated as fleeing, and all docked ships would flee, too, losing the game.

If, however, the Gozanti had priority tokens, you could only score tokens for one ship - the Gozanti. All other ships escape, but they exceed the one ship per escape edge rule. Am I reading this right? You couldn't count all the victory tokens on the docked ships because that breaks a rule.

The rule for scoring points by getting off the board is called ESCAPE. I can assume that if they all count as "escaping" that they should all give points.

On 1/6/2020 at 8:12 AM, Zazaa32 said:

Question about docking and VP

New answer! New FAQ out. If an objective ship is placed in reserve (by docking) it loses the objective points as if it were fled.