So prior to the release of the F/O conversion kit there was tons of discussion about Omega Leader now given the call sign Midnight.

Obviously the loss of synergy with Juke changed an auto include upgrade but overall not a huge change. The thought was a great Force using hunter. Yet as far as I have been able to tell Midnight is seeing little use.

Is Midnight just being overlooked much like many F/O aces in favor of the S/F? I tend to wonder if this isn’t a situation where thinking just a 2 dice gun isn’t enough thinking creeps back in since no double arc or double repo. I can certainly understand a lack of F/O support or Support crew/carriers. Though didn’t seem an issue when first revealed.

Is Midnight just quietly doing everything it was thought capable of and so just not talked about because the pilot is “meeting expectations”. Without feeling oppressive or undercosted to a wild degree?

Midnight is overcosted.

Low output damage and bad action economy makes her useless against a lot of things.

Be an high Initiative pilot doesn't help too much without reposition and with Afterburners is even more expensive.

There are better options.

3 hours ago, Ronu said:

Obviously the loss of synergy with Juke changed an auto include upgrade but overall not a huge change.

I disagree, that is a huge change. Old Lockdown had PTL or more frequently comm relay + juke, both ways to get 2 or even 3 action equivalents. (edit: I checked old metawing and it's not even close: juke and comm relay. At some point ASTS was a thing, but not comparable to juke)

Lockdown needs a way to get the lock AND a focus. Fanatical seems like an option, but it's not because you can't use it defensively, can't use it before losing 25% HP, and can't use it for both dice.

That means you have to build around her, or spend a valuable turn to safely set up the lock. That one turn without a green token is a big gamble. Both options are bad, and that makes her bad enough.

I think it's worth noting that, while initially cool, 1e Omega Leader kinda dropped off pretty fast. He had a cute trick, but mostly disappeared by the time the TAP hit the scene, IIRC. I think he was probably rather rare by the time we got to Ghost/Fenn and Nym/Randa.

In 2e, the action economy of Comm Relay/Juke or A Score To Settle gone. Meanwhile, there was the transition from PS 8 OL to Init 6 Midnight. He's one of the few pilots to essentially go *up* in the edition change over. The price didn't go up much (21*2=42 to 44 initially), but a lot of stuff got cheaper. Certainly Scorch/ZL went from 20*2=40 points to 35 initially in 2e. Putting it together--Omega Leader went up by 2, Zeta Leader went down by 5--the cost issue looks even worse. Meanwhile, pretty much all the old PTL aces got their talent built-in with their linked actions. Midnight didn't.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

In 2e, the action economy of Comm Relay/Juke or A Score To Settle gone. Meanwhile, there was the transition from PS 8 OL to Init 6 Midnight. He's one of the few pilots to essentially go *up* in the edition change over. The price didn't go up much (21*2=42 to 44 initially), but a lot of stuff got cheaper. Certainly Scorch/ZL went from 20*2=40 points to 35 initially in 2e. Putting it together--Omega Leader went up by 2, Zeta Leader went down by 5--the cost issue looks even worse. Meanwhile, pretty much all the old PTL aces got their talent built-in with their linked actions. Midnight didn't.

But isn’t that the case with all the F/O ships. Their tools got reigned in and all their action economy was more or less rendered moot? Outside of the Autothrusters on the TIE/vn none of the F/O ships have what would be considered worthwhile action economy.

Quickdraw is still popular but only gets one bonus attack per round. Which means no more than one retaliation shot a round. If using the Gunner, no retaliation shots if you double tap, certainly no more quad shots. Quickdraw seems to have adapted somewhat so not seeing why Midnight has not also been able too.

My quick take: Omega Leader was good in a 2-3 ship meta. We are in a 3+ ship meta. You may certainly do well against against 3 ship lists you come across, but the plethora of 4 ship and up are going to drop Midnight hard. Losing Comm Relay and Juke on top of that means the pilot is overcosted.

10 minutes ago, Ronu said:

But isn’t that the case with all the F/O ships. Their tools got reigned in and all their action economy was more or less rendered moot? Outside of the Autothrusters on the TIE/vn none of the F/O ships have what would be considered worthwhile action economy.

Quickdraw is still popular but only gets one bonus attack per round. Which means no more than one retaliation shot a round. If using the Gunner, no retaliation shots if you double tap, certainly no more quad shots. Quickdraw seems to have adapted somewhat so not seeing why Midnight has not also been able too.

Quickdraw got cheaper, though. 29*2 = 58, which is 3 points more expensive, plus the overall QD build is cheaper than before. The price on a full 1EQD build would be 72 points today (more if using Expertise instead of VI). There are some things it'd do better than now, but QD is a lot easier to fit into a healthy list. I think 5050Saint also gets it below:

11 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

My quick take: Omega Leader was good in a 2-3 ship meta. We are in a 3+ ship meta. You may certainly do well against against 3 ship lists you come across, but the plethora of 4 ship and up are going to drop Midnight hard. Losing Comm Relay and Juke on top of that means the pilot is overcosted.

Midnight is OK against excessive dice mods (or was, when he could take Juke), particularly with a low ship count. That's a pretty limited thing to be good against. Also, he's not as good at it in 2e as he was in 1e. Aces were more resilient to chip damage with easier double defensive mods and Autothrusters in 1e, and 1e Omega Leader's Juke put a much bigger dent in it. In 2e, Aces are already a lot more vulnerable to chip damage in general, and Midnight doesn't add that much more over the status quo.

To answer @Ronu about why QD has managed to adapt to 2e: Quickdraw isn't only an anti-ace ship. They're good against the field. Against aces, a double-tap can be game ending. Against swarms, you'll still have a ship which can put out a lot of offense before it dies. Midnight... can't really do that.

Meanwhile, although QD lost the quad-shot, I can't recall ever actually using it. I mean, there's a reason Veteran Tail Gunner sees almost no play. QD is still limited to the same two 3-dice front-arc attacks per turn, so typically there isn't a tonne of difference.

//

Actually... I'm just going to quote myself, since I think it gets at something useful: In 2e, Aces are already a lot more vulnerable to chip damage in general, and Midnight doesn't add that much more over the status quo.

Eh, like Midnight was never really that good in 1.0, she just kind of neatly slotted into a point cost that was useful. 2.0 she became generally worse both because of the loss of the Juke thing and generally less action economy. Also, the setup of her ability is kind of long i.e. you have to lock the ship, but can't spend the lock, so your first attack is a hard roll of 2 red vs usually 2-3 greens which is pretty anemic (average of less than 1 damage). If you can stay on the target and get a focus, your net attack gets better. Hasn't lost her vulnerability to multiple enemies. She's a vaguely useful filler for an ace list that FO doesn't have.

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Quickdraw got cheaper, though. 29*2 = 58, which is 3 points more expensive, plus the overall QD build is cheaper than before. The price on a full 1EQD build would be 72 points today (more if using Expertise instead of VI).

And no LWF either.

Yeah, it's been said but it's worth repeating. Midnight lost both Juke and Comm Relay/Advanced Optics. Juke meant that any hits she generated would mostly go through. Right now, even against triple ace lists (a supposed strong matchup), Midnight is awful. 2 dice woth Focus (assuming the lock was already up) vs 2 dice with no Focus expects a little less than a damage per turn. Vs 3 dice the expected is a little more than half a damage. That's against ships that typically have regen, or are i6 with a bid to move last.

Midnight is effectively just an i6 FO. FOs aren't trash ships, but they also aren't 43 points for i6 good.

has anyone looked at Midnight as anti-huge ship tech? One lock, and 2-4 weapons cannot be modified until Midnight is hunted down and killed.

1 hour ago, Rakaydos said:

has anyone looked at Midnight as anti-huge ship tech? One lock, and 2-4 weapons cannot be modified until Midnight is hunted down and killed.

It’s only when attacking her....

25 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

It’s only when attacking her....

The attacker can also Juke her...the ability is always worse than you think it is

Ship counts are up in 2nd Edition, and midnight only locksdown a single ship, letting 3+ attack her.

Another contributing factor is that because of ship count increasing, more games go to time. And with midnights offense relatively weak, you can mostly ignore midnight and kill the rest of the squad, go to time, and win on points.

Ive played around with her and like the predator,pattern, afterburner 57pt build. Predator gives mods that stick as a reroll on midnight vs a locked ship is much better, pattern allows locks or rolls on sloops. Burners push that range 1 to get an extra attack die. She solo'd IG-88A quite easily in one game, and that is where she really shines. Low ship count, high agility ships. IG-88A rolled 3 eyeballs sitting on 2 calcs and had to eat three damage. Lists like Boba/Fenn, Deci/Whisper, etc I would love Midnight. Vs sear swarms, rebel beef, torkhil khiraxz, etc. She is wasted points and I probably would like two epsilon init 1 ships for my 57pts. Fun casual ship. Not worth the points in a tourney.

Basically everything here said in this thread is true.

For me, Midnight is not bad, just not as good as FO's high-density roster (few ships, but LOTS of options). When you build Midnight to be a pest, why not take Null or Rivas? When you build him to maximize I6, why not QD? When you just want to hurtle 2 hits repeatedly, why not take optic Zetas or Backdraft? When you use Trickshot or R1 to toss 3 dice, why not Scorch or Longshot? When you dedicate a coordinate platform to maximize efficiency, why not lend that power to Quickdraw? When you want an endgame monster, why not go full point fortress and take either I5 Silencer? When you want to skew the gas cloud game, why not Blackout? When you want to outmod the opponent, why not Kylo, especially with optics?

Midnight has done great for me against 2 ship lists and to some degree 3 ship lists. But the game is 4 ships at standard squad size. Too cheap and ineffective to be a fortress and too expensive and threatening to drop a bunch of points, I literally field Midnight only when I want to use the Gencon art of him.

2 pts targeting sync when?

Midnight needs FCS badly

The loss of Comm Relay is probably bigger than the loss of Juke. It gave her a form of passive regen, as she could usually hold into an Evade token to absorb an incoming point of damage. It made her an excessively annoying endgame target once she got the Evade/TL/Focused trio going.

24 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

The loss of Comm Relay is probably bigger than the loss of Juke. It gave her a form of passive regen, as she could usually hold into an Evade token to absorb an incoming point of damage. It made her an excessively annoying endgame target once she got the Evade/TL/Focused trio going.

I agree, and I think it is a tad more important than the high ship count meta. Because many lists are eventually reduced to 1-2, where Midnight should shine if that was the only problem. Note that it definitely contributes to her being rather bad though!

I've tried to get her to work since her 2.0 release and agree with all the issues listed so far. I6 and the ability are great, but the chassis is lacking a way to take advantage of them in any meaningful way. Afterburners and pattern analyzer can make up for that but then you're at a point cost above Soontir and still stuck with an anemic offensive potential and in trouble against 4+ ship lists. Hoping for a point reduction in a few days.

She does draw a lot of aggro though.

The best I've gotten Midnight to work is with Fanatical and Advanced Optics, but holy **** that's an expensive ship for something that looks threatening on paper, but isn't really on the board. If the rest of your list can take down all but one ship, and you have Midnight + 1 other on the board... you probably will win that match. But not because of Midnight.

I will echo she does draw a LOT of aggro though... you can tell who the old timers in this game are

Indeed. Fanatical is nice - because it is a great value talent - but Midnight will only really work well as and when the First Order get a decent cost support ship. As noted, it's a massive loss of action economy - not only do you not have juke, you don't have your evade and you have a lock you're not planning to spend so you don't have red dice modifiers either.

The Upsilon Command Shuttle is scary as heck (as anyone who's ever been caught in the forward guns of one will attest) but it's not really great as a command platform given that it costs about the same as an epic-play First Order Sympathisers carrier and only generates a single co-ordinate action at a cost of getting any tokens itself. It's telling that the most common one to see is the one who generates free actions....

My view on Midnight is pretty much the same as my view on Static - and my view on General Hux. All of them arguably boil down to a problem with the Upsilon - if you could take AP-5 in a first order squad, they'd be good verging on amazing.

If taking Midnight, I'd pick Fanatical and probably leave it at that because Midnight is expensive - largely because of that I6 - though Pattern Analyser is a nice second pick (rather than optics) . He is good in an extended fight with an ace. He is also good answer to ships with massive dice modifiers - and is actually a very good pick for a low-budget game of Aces High.

Probably my favourite moment recently was facing off against (N-1) Anakin Skywalker - with Lone Wolf charge, a Force charge, a Focus token, an Evade token......and a target lock from Midnight.

Some bad words may have been spoken across the table.

15 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. Fanatical is nice - because it is a great value talent - but Midnight will only really work well as and when the First Order get a decent cost support ship.

You can always use Squad Leader Muse with Biohexacrypt Codes.

1 minute ago, Singulativ said:

You can always use Squad Leader Muse with Biohexacrypt Codes.

you can - and I think that's a nice support option that often gets overlooked, but not for Midnight.

I think she's great support for a TIE/sf or TIE/vn, but I'm less wild about her for supporting other TIE/fo - giving up the action on one TIE/fo for a free action on another TIE/fo doesn't really feel powerful enough to justify a pretty high cost (even at I2, Squad Leader is still 6 points).

5 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

You can always use Squad Leader Muse with Biohexacrypt Codes.

That's a 37pt version of the previous Juke+commrelay. For a 4ship meta where Midnight's ability is not exactly amazing anyway.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's a 37pt version of the previous Juke+commrelay. For a 4ship meta where Midnight's ability is not exactly amazing anyway.

I rather like Muse as a standalone piece, anyway. give her Pattern Analyser and Fanatical (about the same price) and she's a surprisingly good as a 'pocket TIE defender' who can do back-to-back segnor's loops that can make her irritatingly hard to pin down if you don't have a turret.