8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would it be something worth exploring more in the future?

Definitely. Jendon could well go up and probably needs to, but Kagi and Sai are fantastic enablers alongside 2 aces, if 3 loses some of its power. Particularly with Palp aboard. Neither look like they're in line for changes imo...

There are also decent options to circumnavigate a bid there.

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would it be something worth exploring more in the future?

Especially with Lieutenant Sai and the ST-321 title, combined with its rear 'popguns', the shuttle is pretty darn effective by itself; reliably getting focus/lock without skipping co-ordinating your aces.

Yes, it's slow and yes it turns like a cow but successful 'Palp Aces' players were the ones who judged right when to throw their support ship into the fight as a third gun/blocker, and getting a fully modified 3-dice attack is not something you can ignore, especially with the generally weaker defence of 2nd edition ships.

6 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

There's another reason why Palpshuttle is less commonly seen: it's extended only.

People who want to win tournaments practice their lists a lot and don't want to have to practice two different lists if their Hyperspace one is just as good.

A good point.

Yeah I just saw that I had a Whisper Soontir Sai list saved in Launchbay that I never actually played.

At the moment I would try a Vader Soontir Sai. You can go bonkers with Palp, Title and a hull for a 6dmg threshold, next to the normal afterburner passive Vader and tc Soontir. Not enough bid, but maybe this Soontir doesn't care.

Of course that won't survive but now I wish I had tried it.

This thread. 53 pt Soontir should obviously be able to beat 82 points of x wings.

Also this thread.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

A 53+3+6+3 = 65pt Soontir should not be as good as a 88 or 96pt Anakin. Even if you add 3pt on top of Soontir he's 20pt below.

Compare him to the similarly priced Wedge, and I would argue he is about right, maybe just a point or two undercosted.

The problem with Soontir, as alreqdy mentioned by others, is the ridiculous value he gets out of upgrades compared to many other ships. Hull and Shield upgrades feel like bargains on him, as does predator, outmaneuver and crack shot.

Good job with is one @Boom Owl, it's a tough one. If Soontir is overcosted, then Wedge, Anakin, and Obi Wan (even at 5) are certainly as well IMO. But this is an interesting thread. If he gets a price bump, I say he'll fade from use completely and Vader will be the only go-to 6 for Imp selection... and the Jedi will rule the day (as if they don't already).

I guess the fact that this can be easily argued both ways means his price is probably dead on.

...now where's my tea?

Just now, clanofwolves said:

If he gets a price bump

and the other overperforming aces do, too,

He'll be one of a number of options that can be reasonably chosen from.

On 1/5/2020 at 1:26 AM, Archangelspiv said:

Wedge is 55, Soontir 53. One is highly mobile, one is tanky that can make even the most agile ship have a bad day. Soontir relies on green die which never ends well. Given the propensity for swarms these days, avoiding shots is a lot harder than it used to be.

This guy gets it. Soontir has way more of an uphill battle in a game where ship counts have risen exponentially over first edition.

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

A 53+3+6+3 = 65pt Soontir should not be as good as a 88 or 96pt Anakin. Even if you add 3pt on top of Soontir he's 20pt below. That should matter. Conversely, that Soontir would be extremely above CLT Anakin at 67pt.

3 Hull, usually stressed, never gets any rerolls at all...

He’s definitely no Anakin.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

3 Hull, usually stressed, never gets any rerolls at all...

He’s definitely no Anakin.

Targeting computer is not just a thing, it's the thing.

Stress barely matters, and neither does 3 hull

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Targeting computer is not just a thing, it's the thing.

Stress barely matters, and neither does 3 hull

You were talking about cost. Add 3 more points. Now he costs more than CLT Anakin. You can't change the subject halfway through the argument.

Stress does matter, as it limits him significantly to the very-predictable blues (mostly 2-turns) whereas Anakin can almost always do almost anything.

And 3 hull also does matter, quite significantly. A single crit can be a near-death-sentence (panicked pilot, loose stabilizer, damaged sensor array, etc.), and he doesn't have a single shield to protect himself (without adding yet another significant cost). A single torp shot is as likely as not to end him, and in an age where PS is a thing, that's not too hard. And with the limitations to barrel rolls in second edition, it's not like he has infinite perfect-information dodging options either.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You were talking about cost. Add 3 more points. Now he costs more than CLT Anakin. You can't change the subject halfway through the argument.

Daredevil Outmaneuver TC Soontir, hence "53+3+6+3 = 65pt Soontir". Sad!

46 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

This guy gets it. Soontir has way more of an uphill battle in a game where ship counts have risen exponentially over first edition.

if you're going to make a comp to 1e soontir. the ship count he's facing ain't it son

7 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Why should Imperials get a double talent ship at all?

Because it makes more sense in this case than a double-mod ship, especially for the generics.

7 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Why is this something that needs absolute faction parity?

It absolutely isn't. I don't think the First Order needs a two-talent ship, and I'd never want to see one in the hands of the Republic. It annoyed me enough that the Geonosians have two talents as it's much more thematically appropriate to the Interceptor than it ever was to the Nantex. I'm simply interpreting from that decision that it's likely to happen.

7 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Also, this completely ignores the fact that RZ-1s, RZ-2s and the Nantex don't get any modification slots at all, where the Interceptor gets two. The Nantex doesn't even a missile slot. It literally only has the talent slot(s).

I would also propose reducing the Interceptor mod slots to one. Two mods are mostly useless and are only there as a hangover from first edition; not for thematic reasons at all.

7 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

There's no reason to give the Interceptor a second talent slot just because it's vaguely fluffy (after all, isn't the TIE Defender reserved for even more elite pilots? Why wouldn't that get 2 talent slots?). Any pilot that isn't the Alpha squad doesn't need it, and any pilot named Fel would become silly with it. There isn't a talent upgrade out there that's going to fix the Alpha, though Crack Shot might get you closest. And I don't see what about the game would benefit from giving Sabers two talent slots. Turr Phennir with Snap Shot and Daredevil could be some extreme jank, but I still don't think it's worth changing the ship as a whole.

It's not "vaguely fluffy," it's precisely fluffy. The Interceptor and the A-Wing are directly compared in almost every way in most sources that refer to them, and they were created and modified in direct competition to each other. Their whole thing is "it's not much of a ship, but a good pilot can really do stuff with it."

The Defender, conversely, managed to shoot down 3 TIE Interceptors even in the hands of Sabine Wren; maybe they reserved it for elite pilots, maybe not, but the fact is that they didn't need to because the ship itself was so immensely superior. Also remember that the upgrade slots are supposed to be descriptive more than anything else. If you're flying an Interceptor, you'd better have some idea how to control it or you'll kill yourself faster than you can kill anything else.

Intimidation or Snap Shot Alphas would make incredible fillers and blockers (especially if Intimidation goes down to 2 or scales by size as it should). Sabers at a reasonable price would be quite useful with, for example, Crack and Predator, or Ruthless and Crack Shot in a mixed squad. You'll never put mods on them, but talents have some very reasonable uses. Also remember that new pilots in card packs are a thing. Any I4-I5 pilots we get will likely be dying for an extra talent slot, and most likely still won't need two mod slots. Shield or TC does the trick for Soontir, and I'd much rather make him choose than let him keep both. It also means his choice between TC and Predator is more meaningful as one requires bullseye but the other means he gets no shield. Naturally, his cost would have to be adjusted (upwards) to compensate.

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Daredevil Outmaneuver TC Soontir, hence "53+3+6+3 = 65pt Soontir". Sad!

You totally missed the part where I said to add three points in the very first instance that I suggested adding a talent slot (and every time afterward). I assumed that was what you were doing in the first comparison as it was a significant part of the discussion and Targeting Computer was never mentioned.

Gotta compare apples to apples, friend: You can't show how one half of my suggestion is broken without showing how the other half would fail to balance it.

I would put that 68 point Soontir about on par with that 67 point Anakin. If not, further adjustments can be made.

9 minutes ago, jagsba said:

if you're going to make a comp to 1e soontir. the ship count he's facing ain't it son

You are missing the crux of the comparison. Actually, he has even more so of an uphill battle in 2.0. No need to raise his cost. Size up the playing field now vs then and it will help understand the fundamental debate being presented here.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You totally missed the part where I said to add three points. I assumed that was what you were doing in the first comparison.

Gotta compare apples to apples, friend: You can't show how one half of my suggestion is broken without showing how the other half would fail to balance it.

Just stop. A 68pt hypothetical 2 talent Soontir is not remotely close to a 67pt CLT Anakin without any other upgrade. He is instead much closer to the 20pt (!) more expensive D7B Anakin with regen.

Insisting that these 68pt are more in any significant way than 67 of CLT Anakin is embarassing.

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just stop. A 68pt hypothetical 2 talent Soontir is not remotely close to a 67pt CLT Anakin without any other upgrade. He is instead much closer to the 20pt (!) more expensive D7B Anakin with regen.

Insisting that these 68pt are more in any significant way than 67 of CLT Anakin is embarassing.

Wait, is 67 of CLT Anakin NOT comparable to that Soontir? Similar movement profile, better stress management, much better disengagement capabilities, etc. Less raw damage output but much sturdier vs. multiple attacks. They're a much closer comparison than you give them credit for imo.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

He is instead much closer to the 20pt (!) more expensive D7B Anakin with regen.

Insisting that these 68pt are more in any significant way than 67 of CLT Anakin is embarassing.

Okay, let's compare them then:

Anakin: 3 hull, 3 shields behind 2 agility – Soontir: 3 hull, 0 shields behind 3 agility

No, one extra green die does not make up for more than double the health.

Anakin: Can double-reposition from every white maneuver on his dial, every turn – Soontir: Double-reposition means he has to do a blue next turn, leaving him predictable. Daredevil means he can't barrel roll or get mods

No, a 90° boost doesn't make up for a totally-wide-open dial

Anakin: Can reposition and get mods on a red maneuver – Soontir: Red maneuver usually means no mods and always means no reposition

No, the ability to get focus if your red bullseyes is not better than removing your stress and doing a reposition and an action if your red bullseyes

Anakin: Always has passive focus, just because he exists – Soontir: Only gets passive focus if he bullseyes an opponent

Fair, calculate isn't as good as focus, but Soontir does often miss it, even with DD

Anakin: If you're blocked, you usually get to remove a stress and still have passive mods – Soontir: If you're blocked, you usually get a focus

Okay, that does make Soontir look just about as good as Anakin in this one instance

Anakin: If you make a mistake, go regen some health – Soontir: If you make a mistake, he's literally dead

Effectively 3 hull 5 shields vs 3 hull 0 shields – I'll let you judge who wins this one

Soontir starts almost every turn stressed. He will dial a 2-turn almost every turn, and if he doesn't, it's pretty obvious what his move will be. Blocking him is easy if you have something fast in your squad. Getting him in arc isn't as hard as double-repositioning makes it seem. On the other hand, Anakin starts almost every turn un-stressed and with at least one force. He can dial in any maneuver on his dial and then double-reposition, often even on a red maneuver. And it takes a lot more licks to get to the center of that lollipop.

Calling them in any way comparable is patently absurd on its face. Yes, 7B regen Anakin is still more than 20 points better than this imaginary double-talent Soontir.

Please nerf anything remotely playable in Imperial faction.

I'm sick and tired of FO and Resistance having access to easy faction prizes while I have to practically win the tournament to get anything for Imperials.

33 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Double-reposition means he has to do a blue next turn, leaving him predictable.

32 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

He will dial a 2-turn almost every turn, and if he doesn't, it's pretty obvious what his move will be. Blocking him is easy if you have something fast in your squad.

Right, his blue moves are incredibly predictable. And that's without daredevil.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Right, his blue moves are incredibly predictable. And that's without daredevil.

I love you like a brother

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Right, his blue moves are incredibly predictable. And that's without daredevil.

His blue moves are predictable. What you're showing is what he can do afterward (and if there are no obstacles involved, which is a fantasy). He can't do any of that if he's blocked, and it only takes blocking him once to kill him dead, as every Soontir player will attest. There are only 7 potential ending locations, 2 of which are used 90-95% of the time, and exactly one of which is most likely on any given turn, unless played more-than-usually cagey (even for Soontir).

33 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For blocking him, this is all you have to consider:

Pretty straightforward there. I demand apples to apples comparison. Note how you omitted Anakin's heat map.

Unfortunately, the site doesn't have the Aethersprite. It needs to be updated pretty badly . Closest comparison is the Starviper. Just switch the 1-straight for a 5-straight and 4-K and 5-K turns.

Adding just the boost action (because the Viper's barrel roll would misrepresent what he can do), you get this:

This doesn't show double-repositioning, or any barrel rolls. Again looking for the closest comparison, here's what an A-Wing can do with double-reposition. Anakin also has a 1-bank and wouldn't end stressed in any of these cases:

Also Anakin can boost into roll, which this doesn't show, and still end unstressed.

Also, Anakin can double-reposition off of a red maneuver in moderately favorable circumstances.

The heatmap is not comparable. The comparison is still absurd.

50 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Right, his blue moves are incredibly predictable. And that's without daredevil.

Hint Hint. If you intend to block him you and actually play (so a lot of these maneuvers dont make any sense) there are far less options. Try it. You can make it too! Usually it boils down to 2 or max 3 of the blue moves when Soontir is stressed. Block that and he is toast.

and Anakin can boost from K turns. This comparison and thread is absurd.