4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Fixed. Not going to be hard to find a "Talent a + Talent b = Soontir gets to delete your ship for 0 effort" combo if the suggestion gets implemented...

Politely disagree. Even Daredevil Outmaneuver Soontir isn't anywhere near Anakin levels of power. Daredevil Predator might be something, but Targeting Computer is easy enough already...

But thematically the Interceptor should be the imperial double-talent (and I1 talent) platform. It compares to the RZ-1, RZ-2, and bug fighter. Fast-and-fragile, but sings in the hands of a talented pilot.

37 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Politely disagree. Even Daredevil Outmaneuver Soontir isn't anywhere near Anakin levels of power. Daredevil Predator might be something, but Targeting Computer is easy enough already...

But thematically the Interceptor should be the imperial double-talent (and I1 talent) platform. It compares to the RZ-1, RZ-2, and bug fighter. Fast-and-fragile, but sings in the hands of a talented pilot.

🤨 Interesting how you went for Daredevil in your reference when Crackshot/Outmanuver = effectively 0 defense dice for most of the targets he'd shoot at. Play patient and that is 4 single modded dice into effectively 0 defense roll when you choose. Trying to play it down perhaps?

From a "nerf Soontir" thread to "buff him"...

If the elite pilots don't have the talent upgrade, how much reduce that their performance? Will be they unplayable?

I like the difference between the notorious Aces (with only their pilot ability and more Initiative) and the custom ones (with the talent slot), but it's true that there are few pilots that without the upgrade are garbage.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Interesting how you went for Daredevil in your reference when Crackshot/Outmanuver = effectively 0 defense dice for most of the targets he'd shoot at. Play patient and that is 4 single modded dice into effectively 0 defense roll when you choose. Trying to play it down perhaps?

Daredevil would be glued to a 2nd slot for me, it gives him insane agency thieving abilities. Tbh, it'd be in the 1st slot.

I can very much get behind the double slot for Interceptors not named Soontir.

Snapdevil Phennir please.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Politely disagree. Even Daredevil Outmaneuver Soontir isn't anywhere near Anakin levels of power. Daredevil Predator might be something, but Targeting Computer is easy enough already...

A 53+3+6+3 = 65pt Soontir should not be as good as a 88 or 96pt Anakin. Even if you add 3pt on top of Soontir he's 20pt below. That should matter. Conversely, that Soontir would be extremely above CLT Anakin at 67pt.

I'm going to try and be as helpful as I can, but there's some knowledge here that belongs to other people that I don't feel is my place to share. That said, I'll try and explain as much as I can.

My main point should be: I thought very similarly about the supremacy of aces until someone beat the pants off me with beefy lists and forced me to completely reconsider my whole understanding of the current meta. I'm not going to give away the all answers, but I suggest that the answers are out there and you need to look at the problem from a different perspective.

People have heard me say here plenty enough that i think I3 I4 is worthless, and I5 I6 is too strong. (And that I1 I2 is boring or too weak and that I have a love for spam) That is STILL my opinion, especially on the I3 I4 is worthless part. That means those should go down signficantly, while I5 I6 generally needs to go up imo around 2-3 points in general.

However, my belief in the pure supremacy of Triple Ace/665/655/Imps/Jedi/Regen was utterly shaken to its core by games I played against beef lists with multiple firing arcs/5SF/2VCXturret+Jake/multiArcs/Arcs+ys/Sinker swarm. It turns out, beef played defensively and correctly using multi-arcs (as opposed to aggressively), creates huge spaces where Aces can't go, forcing retreats, and with the lack of firepower of many aces lists, causes a lack of damage that flips the damage race into the beef list's advantage.

It made me think about this phenomena: why is triple ace (especially with conditional 3 dice) a thing now and it wasn't in 1.0? A few reasons:
First, turrets are no longer 360 nor stupid easy mode with every single possible good trait baked in. Second, damage is slower in 2e than 1e due to lack of easy double mods, surprise, sometimes you literally can't enough damage on tanks ships to mitigate the random losses of damage you will take as an Ace from multiple arcs. Third, the beef lists required a LOT of skill, creating a cage match situation with rocks and the board edge, knowing literally how to play defensively, utilizing the flight pattern of beef ships to create those situations (no you DON't just fly a beef list, you have to have high competency in multi-turn bump planning or arc coverage). This is an archetype that requires different skills than aces, and in some way is more difficult. I suggest that the meta generally hasn't learned it yet.

I agree and contend that aces aren't that hard. The problem is that they reward skill/practice just like swarms did in 1e, which feels like SHOULD be rewarded. (In contrast, list building should only be rewarded to a certain extent, as list-taking is a skill with a ceiling)

What the game needs is more ways to get around the binary initiative/pilot skill problem. Making mid-Init ships extremely efficient isn't the best way to do that (a la 1e Vessery). This is the classic design problem of Xwing - Avoiding this min-max binary design problem.

===

The solutions are out there. high init deserves an increase, but not to be nerfed out of the sky. And I suspect FFG will agree with me and not nerf it out of the sky. Read above for why and what they might also know that you might not.

Random addendum: I find Soontir/Ric with Daredevil to be a trap due to lack of damage. See above.

42 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm not going to give away the all answers

Why not? Would be interesting to hear

42 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

why is triple ace (especially with conditional 3 dice) a thing now and it wasn't in 1.0?

That's wrong. There were numerous triple aces lists with good performance. Quickdraw, Vader, plus a third ship (Inq, Sabacc, Duchess) was a thing in several lists. Then there were versions with Quickdraw Kylo and a third, or Quickdraw Inq and a Defender (Ryad, Vessery). Or Quickdraw, Defender Striker, or Quickdraw, Defender, OL. And of course triple defenders. And they all did well despite the extreme control and area denial with bombs. A second reason we didn't see many TRIPLE aces was the palp shuttle, which was just too good to pass on. Palpdefenders, Mynockspecial, and so on.

We would not see triple aces now if there was a good palpshuttle. But even count dooku is range restricted now. We might see him in an imperial list anyway, if that was an option.

16 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

The majority of the playerbase (69%) seem to want to arbitrarily pretend that Regen Jedi are the only Aces that are currently undercosted.

Nice.

43 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why not? Would be interesting to hear

That's wrong. There were numerous triple aces lists with good performance. Quickdraw, Vader, plus a third ship (Inq, Sabacc, Duchess) was a thing in several lists. Then there were versions with Quickdraw Kylo and a third, or Quickdraw Inq and a Defender (Ryad, Vessery). Or Quickdraw, Defender Striker, or Quickdraw, Defender, OL. And of course triple defenders. And they all did well despite the extreme control and area denial with bombs. A second reason we didn't see many TRIPLE aces was the palp shuttle, which was just too good to pass on. Palpdefenders, Mynockspecial, and so on.

We would not see triple aces now if there was a good palpshuttle. But even count dooku is range restricted now. We might see him in an imperial list anyway, if that was an option.

I covered why above.

I disagree with these triple aces. I don't think they were as T1 as the other meta monsters nor were any of these as meta-defining as current triple aces with considerable repositioning are now. Nor were they basically ever as dominant as Palp Aces.

Agree palpshuttle.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But thematically the Interceptor should be the imperial double-talent (and I1 talent) platform. It compares to the RZ-1, RZ-2, and bug fighter. Fast-and-fragile, but sings in the hands of a talented pilot.

Why should Imperials get a double talent ship at all?

Why is this something that needs absolute faction parity?

Also, this completely ignores the fact that RZ-1s, RZ-2s and the Nantex don't get any modification slots at all, where the Interceptor gets two. The Nantex doesn't even a missile slot. It literally only has the talent slot(s).

There's no reason to give the Interceptor a second talent slot just because it's vaguely fluffy (after all, isn't the TIE Defender reserved for even more elite pilots? Why wouldn't that get 2 talent slots?). Any pilot that isn't the Alpha squad doesn't need it, and any pilot named Fel would become silly with it. There isn't a talent upgrade out there that's going to fix the Alpha, though Crack Shot might get you closest. And I don't see what about the game would benefit from giving Sabers two talent slots. Turr Phennir with Snap Shot and Daredevil could be some extreme jank, but I still don't think it's worth changing the ship as a whole.

but what if soontir went up by 5 points and didn't randomly gain a talent slot?

1 minute ago, svelok said:

but what if soontir went up by 5 points and didn't randomly gain a talent slot?

He would be more balanced and still a very valuable addition to many imperial lists

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

He would be more balanced and still a very valuable addition to many imperial lists

He would be replaced with Duchess.

Just now, S4ul0 said:

He would be replaced with Duchess.

I hope we'll see after Thursday. But that's just down to opinion at this point.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Random addendum: I find Soontir with Daredevil to be a trap due to lack of damage. See above.

Disagree. With a previously acquired TL and the lack of restriction on his ability, he doesn't have to suffer much damage loss at all.

Non TC Soonts, absolutely, but why would you do that?!

The actual main advantage, imo, is the incredible flexibility it gives you on approach, where damage is irrelevant anyway. And that is where you set up your shots after all. Better, more sustained attack runs, more leeway on deciding whether to turn in or not = more overall damage.

It still comes in handy later on, extra options on waving that bullseye around. It is more of a marginal difference at that stage, but damage wise, it's not really a big deal. Here, your point does have some weight though, if you can't lock who you want because stress and no way to reduce your opponents green efficiency. It's Soontir though, if this is a problem, your decisions have probably already been suboptimal.

Vs Outmanoeuvre- if you don't get the shots, it doesn't proc. DD can give you those shots. With a focus too.

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a better choice than anything else, it feels kind of either/or. I certainly prefer it though and really don't feel trapped by it

Ric. Meh.

32 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

He would be replaced with Duchess.

Assuming Duchess doesn't go up as well, of course.

There's no way FFG can view a 58 point naked Fel and a 57 point Duchess with Fifth Brother and Outmaneuver as anywhere near a fair or balanced state.

But yes, if for some reason FFG did completely overlook Duchess while making that change, then there's no way you'd take Fel over Duchess.

I doubt that will happen, though. I think a 5 point increase on Fel is a bit steep as it is, and if he's getting bumped up then so is Vader, Duchess, Grand Inky and probably even Fifth Brother gunner. If the early Scum lists and Rebel beef are any indication, when FFG choose to nerf dominant lists, they up every element of every ship in the list even when not strictly necessary.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

It turns out, beef played defensively and correctly using multi-arcs (as opposed to aggressively), creates huge spaces where Aces can't go, forcing retreats, and with the lack of firepower of many aces lists, causes a lack of damage that flips the damage race into the beef list's advantage.

Indeed. Facing aces with less manoeuvrable ships is a challenge, but an interesting one. The problem comes when the aces are also packing defensive tricks out the wazoo so you need ever-increasing numbers of shots to make anything 'stick'. That's why I like Duchess as an example of a 'fair' ace - yes, she's nippy as heck (especially with afterburners) but with no shields, no regen and only agility 2 if you can actually line up on her even a generic with a focused 3-dice attack will on average stick some permanent damage on her....

6 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Assuming Duchess doesn't go up as well, of course.

It has always surprised me that Duchess is cheaper than the other striker pilots, so much as I don't want her too, it wouldn't shock me to see her go up to 44.

45 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It has always surprised me that Duchess is cheaper than the other striker pilots, so much as I don't want her too, it wouldn't shock me to see her go up to 44.

Yeah, when 2e debuted I liked that FFG were costing pilots with high initiative but 'weaker' abilities lower than lower initiative and strong abilities. It was something they never did in 1e, where PS was king and higher PS pilot were always more expensive, and it did occasionally cause problems (1e Vessery being cheaper than 1e Rexler Brath made Brath basically unplayable).

However, as time has gone on, it's very apparent that the world of condensed pilot skill/initiative ranks, reduced upgrade power and reduced combo wing has left Initiative firmly on top. While there are some obvious cases where lower I pilot being more expensive than a higher I pilot still makes sense (Luke should absolutely be more than Wedge, because of the Force), in most cases the higher I is simply more valuable.

Duchess is a perfect example of this. The other named Striker abilities are strong without being overpowered, and Duchess' is relatively less potent. But it just happens that her ability also combos best with high initiative, which she also has. Her I is valuable by itself, but it also lifts her ability and her ability enables her high I. She definitely needs to be the most expensive Striker.

Rexler's a funny example too. He finally gets to be cheaper than Vessery and Ryad. But his ability also got a massive buff while Vessery and Ryad's got nerfed (Vessery by losing the double tap ability, being more expensive making it harder to field more ships to fuel locks and the faction losing some access to locks in general; Ryad loses her hilarious green k-turns at any speed). He now has arguably the best ability of the bunch for the 2e environment and he's the highest I. He also needs to be made the most expensive Defender.

The only cases I can think of where Force isn't involved and a higher I deserves to be cheaper than lower Is is Tomax Bren, because his ability is absolute trash in 2e while Jonus and Rhymer have really solid abilities, and Wampa being an I1 higher than some I4s. Palob being higher than Dace also makes total sense.

4 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

She definitely needs to be the most expensive Striker.

I'm not sure she needs to be the most expensive, but she certainly shouldn't be the cheapest - I think Brath is a more clear-cut case; as noted, his ability got noticeably stronger whilst the others got weaker.

6 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The only cases I can think of where Force isn't involved and a higher I deserves to be cheaper than lower Is is Tomax Bren, because his ability is absolute trash in 2e while Jonus and Rhymer have really solid abilities, and Wampa being an I1 higher than some I4s. Palob being higher than Dace also makes total sense.

Quite a few TIE/ln are costed largely on their abilities. Iden Versio fully justifies being the joint-most-expensive TIE fighter, for example.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'm not sure she needs to be the most expensive, but she certainly shouldn't be the cheapest - I think Brath is a more clear-cut case; as noted, his ability got noticeably stronger whilst the others got weaker.

Well given that the other two are currently the same cost, that's essentially saying the same thing anyway. If she's more expensive than one, she's more expensive than both and therefore the most expensive.

Vagabond will probably come in cheaper than her, but I assume we're not counting him in this discussion anyway.

I guess there's an argument Countdown could come down and Duchess overtakes in the middle, but honestly I'd still say Duchess deserves to be more than Pure Sabacc too. If she were, we might actually see people take PS. He'd be really potent with 5th Bro, but that's fine because he's only an I4 without optional ailerons, 4 hull and 2 agility who loses his ability at half health. I'd love to see PS on the board more. He's right in the sweet spot of balance.

6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Quite a few TIE/ln are costed largely on their abilities. Iden Versio fully justifies being the joint-most-expensive TIE fighter, for example.

Ah yeah. I'd actually forgotten Iden wasn't an I5 herself. Yeah, that's another fully deserved case. Other than her and Wampa though, who I already mentioned, the rest of the TIEs are costed in Initiative order, right?

Yes. The other I4 Inferno pilots are 30, slightly below the I5s at 32.

On the First Order side, obviously "Null" is in a weird spot for pricing - and I guess "Rush" will be too. "Recoil" has essentially a free pilot ability since it's dependent on you equipping a bullseye-dependent upgrade, and obviously Dormitz' price went through the roof thanks to triple upsilon shenanigans.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

We would not see triple aces now if there was a good palpshuttle. But even count dooku is range restricted now. We might see him in an imperial list anyway, if that was an option.

On the limited issue of the Palp shuttle:

Palp's effect is weaker (only an eye to an evade/hit, not a blank), but when I've flown with it, the force charge has rarely gone unspent, so it's still been improving 1 result. In addition, the shuttle has coordinate now, plus reinforce, plus a rear arc, plus is cheaper (54, compared to 29*2=58). That's kind of a lot of new tools for the shuttle, and overall I think it's a pretty good ship.

Not saying it's better than running triple aces, but I think that says more about the strengths of aces than the weakness of the Palp shuttle.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

On the limited issue of the Palp shuttle:

Palp's effect is weaker (only an eye to an evade/hit, not a blank), but when I've flown with it, the force charge has rarely gone unspent, so it's still been improving 1 result. In addition, the shuttle has coordinate now, plus reinforce, plus a rear arc, plus is cheaper (54, compared to 29*2=58). That's kind of a lot of new tools for the shuttle, and overall I think it's a pretty good ship.

Not saying it's better than running triple aces, but I think that says more about the strengths of aces than the weakness of the Palp shuttle.

Would it be something worth exploring more in the future?

There's another reason why Palpshuttle is less commonly seen: it's extended only.

People who want to win tournaments practice their lists a lot and don't want to have to practice two different lists if their Hyperspace one is just as good.