Would we be surprised if FFG just "noped" Soontir out of Hyperspace for this season? What does that do to the Galactic Empire faction?

Spicy take: Soontir costs on average 59 points because 6pt is his average bid.

How different is that from autoincludes like Sense or Passive Sensor?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Spicy take: Soontir costs on average 59 points because 6pt is his average bid.

How different is that from autoincludes like Sense or Passive Sensor?

A little different, since it buys you a bid, which is straight up better than either for Soontir.

Plus he doesn't need to cost that much against anything not I6, which makes things a bit weird.

I don't know?

31 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

A little different, since it buys you a bid, which is straight up better than either for Soontir.

Buying a 6pt bid is very similar to buying a 5pt Sense, both help the entire squad. Sensors are more limited to one ship, I agree there. You also don't need Sense against anything not 6.

And more often than not, Soontir does have a larger bid against the 15 i6 pilots in the game . It would now be interesting to confirm the obvious guess that he wins those where he has the bigger bid. If you count only those above 10 or 20 games, which is the same, then this assumption is true for 7 out of 8 i6 opponents, the exception is Wedge.

I saw five outliers if looking at all i6:

• He loses the bid against Wedge more often, but still wins above 50% (100 games).
• The inverse happens for resistance and scum Han where Soontir wins the bid but loses the game more often - but just 5 and 3 games, respectively.
• Against Rebel Fenn Rau at just 5 games, Soontir has larger or equal bids, but only 40% winrate.
• And Soontir against Midnight had never a smaller bid but lost 3 out of the 4 games. Soontir had the larger bid in two of those, and an equal one in the other 2 games. Again small numbers of course.

Soontir against Quickdraw (73 games) has exactly a 50% larger bid but above 50% win. Against Vader (141 games), the bid is more often smaller and wins are below 50%, so he fits the expectation, same for SunFac (33 games). Not sure what is happening against Soontir. That leaves 6 more i6 and they all fit the expectation (Poe (56 games), Dengar (5 games), ScumFenn (60 games), Anakin twice (75 and 1 game), RebelHan (25 games)).

I got a bit carried away there. My point is: a bid seems to be strongly rewarded for Soontir and maybe should be seen as part of his pilot cost?

18 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

No, the Imperial player needs practice, they don't have to fly better. The reason they don't have to fly better is because they have an I6 ace with a great dial, double repo and that's bafflingly cheap enough to still afford a bid. You can afford to fly significantly worse than the other player and still have the double repo as a safety blanket (and even if you get blocked, you probably still get a focus and can lean on triple greens to bail you out wheres Wedge is almost universally dead in such a position). Wedge is just an X-Wing, he takes one action and frequently just gets caught and dies unless you spend serious effort to try and make that not happen.

I'm in two minds about this assertion.

I agree with you that double repositioning is a crutch. One of my least favourite things in 1st edition was a certain breed of opponent who claims to prefer flying arc dodgers because 'they require more skill' , who after moving after everything else is able to boost then roll out of attacker's arcs and then proceed to tell you what an amazingly skilled player they were for doing so, whilst a swarm often requires planning several turns in advance, especially if you're dumb enough to have varying initiative/pilot skill and are 'stuck' in a specific movement order.

That said, it does require skill. Yes, getting blocked means you can trust agility 3 and your focus (because Soontir getting blocked usually means he has a focus token), but that still leaves you with the durability of a 23 point academy pilot, and whilst most ships do now have a blind spot, there are a lot more ships out there with unpredictable manoeuvrability and quite a few which pair unpredictable manoeuvrability with pretty decent coverage of arcs of fire (TIE/sf, Nantex, RZ-2 A-wings to name 3). Even without tokens and using 2 unmodified green dice, it takes an average of 3 focused 3-dice attacks to kill Wedge - he has twice the durability of Soontir so he can afford to eat even a perfect 4-dice hit and keep right on rolling, and there's a reasonable chance if he 'gets away' he's probably got 2 bonus shields in the tank.

Plus, Wedge's pilot ability is, if not 'better' certainly brutal as heck given his chassis - the fact that unlike almost every other I6 it's not dependent on a target being bullseye-ed, or locked, or tractored, or at range 1, or anything else other than 'shot at' makes Wedge exactly as scary as he should be.

Should Soontir be more expensive? I dunno. Maybe but not catastrophically so. With 'stuff' attached he's definitely a fair match for Fenn Rau or Wedge but I'm not sure his 3-hit version is tough enough to justify a higher cost.

Put another way; one pilot I see quite a lot (and have used quite a bit) is Duchess/Fifth Brother/Afterburners, which weighs in at 57 points plus whatever elite talent you pick. Now she's not I6, but she's also a lot more forgiving, especially with that amazing red dial and the force to keep you alive whilst you use it, has agility 2 but 4 hull, and doesn't have to worry about stress so you can use speed 1 and 3 rather than being nailed to speed 2 (or straights) all the time.

She's a fairly similar proposition to Soontir (and I quite often see her in the same squad) and seems like a pretty decent point of comparison.

This is a lot of discussion for something that, to my mind, has a fairly bland answer.

Yes, Soontir is undercosted. But it really isn't by much.

I'm loathe to admit it, but I think Wedge needs to go up another point. And Soontir needs to be close to Wedge's pricing, but not quite the same (we saw what happened when they were the same cost, and Soontir definitely felt like the lesser value). So I think Soontir needs to go up 2 points.

That's it, really. I think any more than that and he becomes too much of a liability when there are Imperial ships at that point that can better protect their points and have a bigger offensive impact (Duchess with her usual loadout springs to mind, though I guess there's an argument she's undercosted too).

A 2 point increase maybe gets you into a realm where you're having to choose between Predator or Targeting Computer and a bid, though, and I like that. Either you guarantee Soontir's repositioning ability, but you risk him doing very little on attack, or you get him the re-rolls a 3 dice attack ship needs but risk not being able to dodge everyone.

Another question...

Is Soontir Fel everywhere because is the best Ace or because is one of the best answer against other Aces that are everywhere too?

7 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Another question...

Is Soontir Fel everywhere because is the best Ace or because is one of the best answer against other Aces that are everywhere too?

He can be both one of the best aces in general, and one of the best imperial answers to other i5-6 ships

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

and one of the best imperial answers to other i5-6 ships

Definitely this - I'm not knocking your first point, but Soontir is very good value for a ship which can be dropped into a one-on-one with the likes of Vader, Wedge and Poe and have a decent chance of taking them out because he can outmanoeuvre them.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Spicy take: Soontir costs on average 59 points because 6pt is his average bid.

Predator Soontir isn't as bad as 1st edition Phantoms were (do you have the initiative/pilot skill advantage? Yes? You win. No? Sucks to be you) but he's about as close to it as anyone in 2nd edition.

The difference in return-on-points between going first and last with him is ridiculous because his durability is very heavily centred on slipping out of arcs of fire rather than dodging an attack and his firepower goes up by something like 80% if he can centreline a target.

I think that's an issue with the TIE interceptor generally; it's not really good enough to justify the extra attack die and autothrusters being an 11 point upgrade over a TIE/ln unless you're attaching it to a pilot with the initiative advantage; Sabers and Turr Phennir feel much more badly overcosted than Soontir does. Because a bad shot with a token is generally as good as a great shot without one, repositioning is cool and all but only really helps if you know you're dodging a shot as a result....and at I4 or less, you don't.

44 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

He can be both one of the best aces in general, and one of the best imperial answers to other i5-6 ships

Yes, probably right. But I don't think Soontir is the best Ace option against a field with more generics or low Initiative pilots that don't see much table now because they can't damage Force users.

Against a pure generic squad, pilots like Duchess are much better. See the PAX Open final match between Duncan and Heaver.

What I mean is the problem isn't Soontir Fel, is the Ace meta that makes the Baron one of the best Imperial options right now.

If we want to resolve the Acewing meta I think Soontir is the wrong target but we are few days until the points update. Can't we wait until then?

23 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Against a pure generic squad, pilots like Duchess are much better. See the PAX Open final match between Duncan and Heaver.

What I mean is the problem isn't Soontir Fel, is the Ace meta that makes the Baron one of the best Imperial options right now.

Duchess is always, I think, a good one to look at. She can fight higher initiative aces - not by reactively repositioning but by being able to get places that it doesn't matter how many boosts and rolls you can chain together, you're still not getting a shot off - much like Starvipers.

She's actually cheaper than the other TIE/sk pilots because her great-but-not-unbeatable initiative is essentially all she's got going for her; her pilot ability is essentially extra 'reactive' repositioning, which is nice but still of variable value depending on which end of the initiative stick you're holding.

Pure Sabbac by comparison is almost always on the wrong end of it but sweet mother of god has brutal firepower for his cost, Snap Shot potentially dropping 7 attack dice on a target in a single round.

However, Duchess works far batter than Soontir does on the wrong end of the stick, and is still able to massacre generics.

I guess my view on the whole thing about initiative and bids ultimately boils down to the fact that you can take an I6, but sooner or later you're going to have to face another I6 with a better bid than you. And if you come from the mindset that "well that means I lose, doesn't it" then you should really try playing with manoeuvrable lower initiative ships, because the matchup isn't as impossible as a lot of people seem to think.

i'm an imperial player... onestly i have flown soontir few time since 2.0 came out (because he is too fragile in my opinion and i prefere ships that forgive a little bit more)... but flown a lot against him.... i have never see him as a problem... i usually play 4 ships balanced squad to suffer the less possible from both aces or swarm squads.

soontir for me is ok.

usually against me he is out at first error, maybe the second..

to me now points problems are elsewhere

#regendroid

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I got a bit carried away there. My point is: a bid seems to be strongly rewarded for Soontir and maybe should be seen as part of his pilot cost?

Yes/no?

I mean, it obviously is more beneficial to him than almost every other pilot in the game, but is it just so meta/squad dependent that it's too murky a thing to include in the valuation?

Other ace price bumps could make it pretty variable too.

Especially considering you can run him without a bid and still dunk on anything not I6 ofc.

My next point is that a price increase within the range of his preferred bid is acceptable. That should in principle lead to the choice between ditching upgrades and reducing the bid, which is a good start.

So anything between 2 and 6 should be seen as acceptable increase that should keep him playable.

Just to play out a possible scenario and what it would potentially result in. (There are lots of different ways to get to a similar net cost change for list options).

Soontir: + 5-6 Points

Vader: +3 Points

Grand Inq: + 3 Points

Fifth Bro: +2 Points

Ends up with 190 Point No Upgrade Vader/Soontir/GI or Bro Duchess. Still not enough increase in my opinion however upgrades are likely to go up so it would probably on net work out. Even assuming upgrades dont change it means you could add Burners to Vader for 196 + Crack TC Soontir or Passive Sensors on Vader for 200 even. Or you could down grade from Soontir to Grand Inq / Duch Bro for a little more room but 655 instead of 665. Or remove Vader out right and run a true bid + a good # of upgrades with less room than before. It would also mean that Vader/Soontir/Whisper would basically not fit with more than 1-2 upgrades, and it would finally kill off Squad of Legend in its entirety a list that never actually became bad, Redline just got replaced by his i6 brother Precog Vader ( a thread for another day Precog Vader is busted beyond belief ).

At 200 with 2-4 upgrades Vader/Soontir+1 would still be incredibly effective in the current meta pre-point increase to any of its matchup. Players who think these types of list require a bid or 4+ upgrades to be playable are out right wrong. Frankly, 665 does not need or deserve the option to bid/take upgrades at all. The choice should be can I take the Aces I want at all to begin with. Choosing between Vader or Soontir as your i6 would still be a valid option and probably continue to matchup well against the vast majority of the card pool.

Everything above is how list building mostly works for Rebels, Resistance, First Order, and Scum because their Ace Options are costed almost correctly.

Again, reasonable increases to these ships would not remove anything from the competitive scene. I like Aces, I dont at all think they should be unplayable they should just be forced to roll out at or near 200 pts. These kind of increases wouldn't even remotely price them out of the game. Initiative Mechanics would prevent that from being the case. All I am talking about here is costing Soontir and other Aces logically/consistently within faction and across factions. This repeated tagline that "soontir cant trade for his points if he costs more" is out right not true, of course he can when he is more expensive he actually has less work to do, not more. He very regularly trades up, if he even is destroyed at all with 75 min you probably messed up badly or got out played.

Increases would price things to hopefully be on even ground with how Ace Only lists should be treated across factions. Most importantly it would prevent players from freely adding upgrades to ships to even out matchups that should not be good matchups for a list like this. Thats step 1. Step 2 is pricing things so aggressively that your choosing between Init Bands and Pilots rather than Bid or Add Upgrades.

Or we could keep Soontir and Empire Aces generally as is. The majority of the playerbase (69%) seem to want to arbitrarily pretend that Regen Jedi are the only Aces that are currently undercosted.

One last comment, players should stop thinking ships like Soontir are only "good" in the hands of the best players in the game. Thats even less true and probably is an underestimation of average player skill which admittedly is pretty bad. The well known named players you hear about on podcasts or see on stream 100% do not have a monopoly on winning consistently with undercosted high init pieces. The mythology around Soontir players and Empire Aces in general is partly responsible for apparent Soontir Bias. He is not the "Ace of Legend". Soontir is "Yet another Ace", closer to mechanical balance than a Jedi obviously but still undercosted with double mods on both sides of the dice and mods while bumped or stressed.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

My next point is that a price increase within the range of his preferred bid is acceptable. That should in principle lead to the choice between ditching upgrades and reducing the bid, which is a good start.

Indeed. I'd say that's pretty easily defensible - because if your complaint is "but mah initiative bid!" then what you're saying is - at a very oversimplified straw-man level - "I can't possibly win with this ship unless I control initiative order". As noted, if you can restore the same initiative bid by (for example) dropping Predator, then that's your choice.

Points cost increases and legality changes 'matter' if they prevent you taking a ship, or an upgrade critical to a ship being able to function in a role. I'll accept that Vader not being able to afford Afterburners, or Sun Fac not getting Ensnare, is a huge deal. Soontir not getting Predator isn't. Not really.

42 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Just to play out a possible scenario and what it would potentially result in.

Soontir: + 5-6 Points

Vader: +3 Points

Grand Inq: + 3 Points

Fifth Bro: +2 Points

Seems a bit inverted w/r/t points increases... I'd rather see Soontir +2-3, Vader +6, GInq +4, etc etc.

But in general, I think the end result isn't too bad. Imps can still have the viable triple aces many folks want, while making it a bit trickier and a bit harder to get all the toys.

42 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Or we could keep Soontir and Empire Aces generally as is as. The majority of the playerbase (69%) seem to want to arbitrarily pretend that Regen Jedi are the only Aces that are currently undercosted.

I'm torn between "Nice" and being really disappointed in people.

42 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

One last comment, players should stop thinking ships like Soontir are only "good" in the hands of the best players in the game. Thats even less true and probably is an underestimation of average player skill. The mythology around Soontir players and Empire Aces in general is partly responsible for apparent Soontir Bias. He is not the "Ace of Legend". Soontir is "Yet another Ace", closer to mechanical balance than a Jedi obviously but still undercosted with double mods on both sides of the dice and mods while bumped or stressed.

Seriously. A fairly common experience with Soontir is "I gave him a try, and it was like easy mode." Now, that's not necessarily universal, not necessarily correct, and it doesn't always pan out long-run, but it's a common-enough first impression. Often enough, folks find Soontir not as hard as anticipated.

*e* Rephrased that last bit.

24 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A fairly common experience with Soontir is "I gave him a try, and it was like easy mode."

The pilot ability functioning while bumped is a bit strange but I am not even saying he is easy mode. He is not. Its more like a "Normal Difficulty" setting if he was priced properly. Soontir does alot very well. Genuinely struggles in other situations that some Aces worry less about. In some ways Soontir, Poe, and Fenn Rau are good models for what mechanically balanced Aces should look like. In game counter play 100% exists. Not mechanically busted, in Soontir's case just to cheap.

Mostly, I know that there's a lot of folks who've tried him and felt he was a lot less difficult than advertised.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mostly, I know that there's a lot of folks who've tried him and felt he was a lot less difficult than advertised.

Agree. Thats because of years of players advertising him as the Ace of Legend. He is just a well designed Ace. No more special or noteworthy than Poe or Fenn.

Although there is a lot of room to increase the cost of Aces I don't think is a good aproach.

You must adjust all high Initiative pilots and if you don't kill the archetype (I understand that anyone wants that) the result is the same with less margin.

The generics and low Initiative pilots will struggle against Aces and the war between Aces is going to evolve to cutting upgrades and take a little advantage thanks to a better bid. Like now.

We will have the same problem with more luck factor at pairings.

It's not so easy.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Agree. Thats because of years of players advertising him as the Ace of Legend. He is just a well designed Ace. No more special or noteworthy than Poe or Fenn.

I'd rank Fenn easier, Poe harder. The fact that you can just throw Fenn into someone's teeth and Concordia Faceoff, while it doesn't always work, it works a lot better than for other aces.

Poe... just takes a tonne of work, and while 7 HP is nice, it really feels like it can go fast.

Add talent, add 3 points.

Calling it now.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Add talent

Holy cow. The combos would be real.

8 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

The combos would be real <Broken> .

Fixed. Not going to be hard to find a "Talent a + Talent b = Soontir gets to delete your ship for 0 effort" combo if the suggestion gets implemented...