3 minutes ago, svelok said:

S oontir is a 53 point ship, maybe 60ish with upgrades, and it's accepted as natural that he could win against 80 points of X-Wings. But he's not undercosted??

Welcome to my ****

8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

...yeah, it'll be really surprising when that I6 Lamba pulls a hard 1 then boosts and rolls out of your arc....

Ah. Missed the point. The point is I don’t need that initiative, move, or repositional actions to do what you find a abhorrent in Soontir. I can avoid those 6 extra dice with potentially one move. It’s part of the game. Not a unique Ace feature. Again, you seem to think that because you guessed Fel’s initial move correctly, that means you are owed a shot. You aren’t. Just like if I turned my shuttle in the other direction than you expected or moved faster get a block.

9 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

So my thing is that traditionally I fly low-initiative lists with no named pilots (maybe 1 with a support ability)- Generics are my thing.

This worlds I was kinda depressed going into it, as there was a serious problem with my list style- Force aces could opportunistically arc dodge my **** , joust without dying, and alpha strike/PS kill me.

As a guy whose most flown named/unique pilot is ******* TN-3465, I (reluctantly) picked up Soontir as a ship to deal with the massive swathes of i5-i6 aces who have easy access to double mods and low-consequence repositioning. (Note, soontir is one of those ships too). I did not have 'ace experience'

Holy **** is Soontir easy. I made cut at worlds without real difficulty with him. His potential bullseye net with repo is huge. The ability to switch between double offensive (targeting computer baby) and defensive mods WHILE STILL REPOSITIONING is insane. He shrugs off shots with F+E, or gets behind people and has R1 bullseye Focus+Lock+Crack shots to dunk on stuff.

He's clearly worth more than 57 as a Targeting Comp+Crack loadout, and TC and Crack are far from anazing on generic ships.

If you think Soontir is hard to fly or fragile, unironically Git Gud. Aces are not hard. They aren't 1.0 turret/Caveman unga bunga easy, but they sure as **** aren't hard.

Not trying to say he is hard. I just have issue when hyperbole is used to make a case.

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Ah. Missed the point.

Yes, you did, because I6 and double repo allows you to far more easily deny dice than not having it, so it equals durability. Stop trying to act like "doing 1 maneuver" and "doing 1 maneuver after everyone else and then moving 2 more times" are exactly the same.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

Yes, you did, because I6 and double repo allows you to far more easily deny dice than not having it, so it equals durability.

Survivability, not durability. Look up the definitions. Just because you can more easily do something all ships are capable of doesn’t actually increase your durability, and doesn’t mean the term frail doesn’t apply.

6 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

He's clearly worth more than 57 as a Targeting Comp+Crack loadout, and TC and Crack are far from anazing on generic ships.

When you win all worth more than their respective cost.

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

S oontir is a 53 point ship, maybe 60ish with upgrades, and it's accepted as natural that he could win against 80 points of X-Wings. But he's not undercosted??

I think that's not.

The game is about squads, not a single pilot. I agree that we have a prevalence of Aces over generics, but if we make Soontir more expensive, he will be replaced by another Ace.

The big issues are others and the most important probably is the low-mid Initiative pilots. It's not only that a lot of them need a decrease in points, is all the things that worth with Aces (Fortressing, Upgrades, Supports, Regen) that doesn't work with generics or mid tier pilots.

I don't want to remove Soontir of the competitive scene (or Jedis). I want more options.

arguing about definition of terms is, uh, not exactly productive

I think Soontir is in about the right place pointswise. He's got a strong ability on a mobile-but-fragile platform. You can choose to plough upgrades onto him, or simply staple Predator onto him and away you go.

It is true that he is strong when flown well, but that is entirely the point. Should your opponent call your move and position accordingly, Soontir can die very easily due to how little health he has.

2 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I don't want to remove Soontir of the competitive scene (or Jedis). I want more options.

How would costing Soontir or Jedi properly remove them from the competitive scene?

Just so we are all speaking the same language...

Soontir + Burner Vader + GI = 178 Pts

That list with literally 2-3 more pts of upgrades could make cut reliably at any tournament. It has a fantastic matchup against Jedi, and basically any beef list. Are we really to believe that Vader and GI are the only undercosted pieces in that list?

1 minute ago, svelok said:

arguing about definition of terms is, uh, not exactly productive

Considering terms are the only thing we can communicate with, I think it is very important to make sure we use the right ones. And when the wrong words can twist something into hyperbole, I take issue.

Just now, SabineKey said:

And when the wrong words can twist something into hyperbole

I reject your definition of hyperbole.

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Duncan Howard as finalist in the Pax Unplugged System Open like 2 weeks ago.

4 hours ago, svelok said:

I know December seems like forever ago, but literally the two most recent major tournaments, PAX SoS (99 players) and Crossroads Classic (60), had 3 Soontirs in the top 8 and 2 in the top 16 respectively.

Fair enough. He did not do particularly well before or during Worlds, and then I stopped paying attention to the meta because it doesn't matter with January coming up.

4 hours ago, gennataos said:

Rename to “Are you and/or people you know not good with Soontir” and these results don’t surprise me.

Does taking him to Day 2 Coruscant count? I lost immediately to 2 Bomber 2 Punisher, which is a chunk of where my argument about firepower comes from. Also Soontir bumped Redline and then died immediately to a blankout. Like I said before, the variance on Soontir is colossally huge. Also unlike just about every other I6 he has a hard time disengaging, because he has to keep his bullseye pointed at an enemy to get his double mods, which forces you into situations where you get more predictable and easier to bump, and you have to keep thinking 2-3 turns in advance about where you move, whether you take a stress to get your actions, and where that will end you up. I will not deny that he's a very powerful ship, but there's a lot more going on in his cockpit than I think most people are giving him credit for.

As for this argument about points, you really can't compare one ship versus another across rolls and factions that easily. An I2 X-wing does a very different thing from an I6 Interceptor; it has a very different role when building a squad. It's a jouster designed to shoot and not blow up easily. Unlike Soontir it can take a fully modded torpedo and keep chugging. It's not an endgame ship. An I6 ace is. And I think one of the reasons that you see Soontir so much is it's literally either him or Vader when you go into list building and try and get an I6 ace. The low-I jouster archetype has a lot more options to it even within Imperials. Imperials are a very popular faction, and Soontir is their only option for an I6 that doesn't cost 70+ points. I'd imagine he'd do well on rankings unless he was costed totally out of the game. If there were five or six options for an I6 ace I image he'd become less popular because you'd be able to tailor your list to the ace you wanted more.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

3- if he gets blocked, he gets a focus

@Boom Owl Then perhaps we can discuss this and reach an understanding. When I refer to hyperbole, things like the quote above is what I refer to. It is an exaggeration as Soontir can be blocked without triggering his ability. if you do not agree that the example is hyperbole, then why?

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

@Boom Owl Then perhaps we can discuss this and reach an understanding. When I refer to hyperbole, things like the quote above is what I refer to. It is an exaggeration as Soontir can be blocked without triggering his ability. if you do not agree that the example is hyperbole, then why?

Its possible to be aware of Soontir’s weaknesses and still correctly understand that he is undercosted.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

@Boom Owl Then perhaps we can discuss this and reach an understanding. When I refer to hyperbole, things like the quote above is what I refer to. It is an exaggeration as Soontir can be blocked without triggering his ability. if you do not agree that the example is hyperbole, then why?

Yes, lets, how many times have you seen him blocked? How many times of that has he been denied a focus? For me both watching and against, it's been maybe 10%, but more like 5% or less. to say something that happens one in every 10-20 times is not worth noting is not hyperbolic

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Soontir + Burner Vader + GI = 178 Pts

That list with literally 2-3 more pts of upgrades could make cut reliably at any tournament. It has a fantastic matchup against Jedi, and basically any beef list. Are we really to believe that Vader and GI are the only undercosted pieces in that list?

This is the end result of the community complaining about everything that can stand up to Aces and getting them priced out of the game, or designed out when they redid things for 2e. The good bomb ships and upgrades are all gone. Control elements got nerfed or removed. Generic Phantom is gone. Proton torpedoes are mostly gone. Quadjumpers are gone. Every large base that was ever worth a **** in 2e has been systematically removed from the game (I'm not kidding on that one, FFG clearly doesn't want people using large bases competitively). Triple Ace wasn't dominating when it was less expensive. This is a result of clear design choices, and frankly I'm tired of FFGs hard handedness when it comes to balance. They remove archetypes shockingly fast and don't give them a slight nerf and then see how they develop. So I'm not really a fan of discussion that says "yes, do this again." The community has ways of figuring things out better than they think. I'll be very annoyed if they continue this balancing strategy.

7 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

Triple Ace wasn't dominating when it was less expensive.

What does this mean?

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Its possible to be aware of Soontir’s weaknesses and still correctly understand that he is undercosted.

But that has nothing to do about your rejection of my use of hyperbole. Yes, the underlying message can have validity and deserves to be talked about, but should be presented without exaggeration so that people can make up their own minds based on solid data, not what sounds good.

4 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Yes, lets, how many times have you seen him blocked? How many times of that has he been denied a focus? For me both watching and against, it's been maybe 10%, but more like 5% or less. So, not hyprbolic at all.

So, you admit that Soontir getting blocked doesn’t automatically mean he gets a focus. Thus, you exaggerated. Thus, hyperbole.
you want to talk about how that 5% is too low? Please do. We can look at the problem and see what to do about it. But you didn’t lead with that. You choose the sensational option, one that does not accurately describe the situation and doesn’t open up a discussion about what you actually meant.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

How would costing Soontir or Jedi properly remove them from the competitive scene?

Just so we are all speaking the same language...

Soontir + Burner Vader + GI = 178 Pts

That list with literally 2-3 more pts of upgrades could make cut reliably at any tournament. It has a fantastic matchup against Jedi, and basically any beef list. Are we really to believe that Vader and GI are the only undercosted pieces in that list?

I don't think that list has a fantastic matchup against any beef list.

When I fly Aces is the last thing I want to see in front. I know that I can win, but I have the time limit against me and if I make an early mistake it's over.

Requires a lot of patient and probably a considerable amount of luck. I need to inflict damage and evade all the early shots in the first engagements.

It's not so easy to arc-dodge with Vader, and if my opponent play well his options he will remove him first. How much I will trade for him?

But... Isn't that an interesting matchup? I think we want to play this game.

4 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

When I fly Aces is the last thing I want to see in front. I know that I can win, but I have the time limit against me and if I make an early mistake it's over.

Weird. Its the first thing I want to see. Can you elaborate?

Aces weren't dominating early on? Squad of Legend, anyone?

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

What does this mean?

Before the July points update a 12 HP list would have had significant problems dealing with all comers, and Vader and Soontir were cheaper then. You needed something beefier to stand up with them like a Lambda, because there were a lot of generic efficiency lists and they did well. Also Handbrake Han was a thing and he just kinda laughs at that list.

22 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

to say something that happens one in every 10-20 times is not worth noting is not hyperbolic

Sorry. Missed this edit.

I can’t say I agree. Again, all we have is words to convey meaning here. Why take a lazy and inaccurate route if you feel your goal is strong enough on its own? I don’t trust hyperbole because too often it’s used to cover something up. I don’t believe you are trying not p do that, but ultimately I don’t know you. All I have is your words. And if your words are misleading, I’m suppose to blindly trust and assume?

5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

So, you admit that Soontir getting blocked doesn’t automatically mean he gets a focus. Thus, you exaggerated. Thus, hyperbole.
you want to talk about how that 5% is too low? Please do. We can look at the problem and see what to do about it. But you didn’t lead with that. You choose the sensational option, one that does not accurately describe the situation and doesn’t open up a discussion about what you actually meant.

I'm not sure sure how to respong to this. You seem to feel that the maybe 5% chance that you block Soontir and he doesn't get a focus and the roughly 6% chance that he trip blanks on his green dice are meaningful factors in determining the value of the ship. They just aren't, so I guess we have to agree to disagree.

57 minutes ago, DarkArk said:

Before the July points update a 12 HP list would have had significant problems dealing with all comers, and Vader and Soontir were cheaper then. You needed something beefier to stand up with them like a Lambda, because there were a lot of generic efficiency lists and they did well. Also Handbrake Han was a thing and he just kinda laughs at that list.

I agree. 2 point Leia + Pre-July Cassian/Braylen and 1.0 Han were undercosted. Even then Soontir/Vader+ was one of the good strategies for dealing with those specific lists and would work reliably against both those pre july lists using current empire points.

2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I'm not sure sure how to respong to this. You seem to feel that the maybe 5% chance that you block Soontir and he doesn't get a focus and the roughly 6% chance that he trip blanks on his green dice are meaningful factors in determining the value of the ship. They just aren't, so I guess we have to agree to disagree.

What I’m getting at is that saying those factors don’t exist is harmful to trying to discuss this because it looks like you are discounting it to make your side seem stronger. Like I said above, I don’t necessarily believe that, but I don’t know you well enough to discount it. You can say the same for me.

I suppose it is best to simply agree to disagree.