Just now, MasterShake2 said:

A ship with 3 green, that gets a focus even while blocked or repoing and that can double repo to remove shots, is just not frail.

Green dice are fickle and is not something to rely on. Soontir is also able to die from a single shot at range 3 due to a blanckout on green dice.

Being able to repo doesn't make the ship not not frail. It makes it dodgy, but any damaging shot can still be lethal to it.

6 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A ship with 3 green, that gets a focus even while blocked or repoing and that can double repo to remove shots, is just not frail.

Why are you taking repositioning as granted? It's not

Soontir is frail because hecan die with one shot, repositioning is not a luxury, it's a necessity, and one that experienced players will take away from you if you're not being very careful

9 minutes ago, Revanur said:

Green dice are fickle and is not something to rely on. Soontir is also able to die from a single shot at range 3 due to a blanckout on green dice.

Being able to repo doesn't make the ship not not frail. It makes it dodgy, but any damaging shot can still be lethal to it.

This is my problem with this argument:

1- Soontir's primary option is to not get shot entirely with a good dial and repo (and yes, not getting shot at does make a ship not frail). For this option, Soontirs health and agility don't matter at all because, not getting shot at will not result in damage

2- If he is getting shot at, he can still repo + focus to reduce quality or number of shots and have a mod for the ones that get through

3- if he gets blocked, he gets a focus

4- even if literally all of that fails, you have to contend with a number of green dice that very ships beat, therefore he usually also has the backup option of "roll high, lol"

He always has defenses he can fall back on. That's just...not frail. It's more vulnerable to bad RNG with the 3 hull, but much not costing a ship based on bad play, you also shouldn't cost it based on bad dice. And I feel like this is the core problem i.e. that one game where Soontir whiffed or you made a mistake really sticks out in your mind, but the dozen other games where he ran circles around the opponent being virtually untouchable doesn't.

14 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A ship with 3 green, that gets a focus even while blocked or repoing and that can double repo to remove shots, is just not frail.

That's a bit hilarious. I would be very interested to know what is your Archetype/Pilots you mainly fly.

Just now, Archangelspiv said:

That's a bit hilarious. I would be very interested to know what is your Archetype/Pilots you mainly fly.

Archetypes that are not I6 and therefore frequently do not get to shoot at Soontir and when they do, do little or no damage. Turns out, about 90% of the game is this archetype.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

Archetypes that are not I6 and therefore frequently do not get to shoot at Soontir and when they do, do little or no damage. Turns out, about 90% of the game is this archetype.

It matters a whole bunch, it's the key to your argument. If you have only flown against Soontir but never played him, it invalidates your argument that he is not frail. By this argument Droid swarms should go up a tonne, they have won a lot more tournaments in 2019 after they were released than the Empire have.

You should try Soontir out, see how much not frail he is.

1 minute ago, Archangelspiv said:

It matters a whole bunch, it's the key to your argument. If you have only flown against Soontir but never played him, it invalidates your argument that he is not frail. By this argument Droid swarms should go up a tonne, they have won a lot more tournaments in 2019 after they were released than the Empire have.

You should try Soontir out, see how much not frail he is.

I have played with and against this pilot more times than I can count. I have seen him flown by some of the best pilots in the world and absolute novices. Soontir is undercosted.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

I have played with and against this pilot more times than I can count. I have seen him flown by some of the best pilots in the world and absolute novices. Soontir is undercosted.

Luckily this is just your opinion and it really doesn't matter.

10 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

This is my problem with this argument:

1- Soontir's primary option is to not get shot entirely with a good dial and repo (and yes, not getting shot at does make a ship not frail). For this option, Soontirs health and agility don't matter at all because, not getting shot at will not result in damage

2- If he is getting shot at, he can still repo + focus to reduce quality or number of shots and have a mod for the ones that get through

3- if he gets blocked, he gets a focus

4- even if literally all of that fails, you have to contend with a number of green dice that very ships beat, therefore he usually also has the backup option of "roll high, lol"

He always has defenses he can fall back on. That's just...not frail. It's more vulnerable to bad RNG with the 3 hull, but much not costing a ship based on bad play, you also shouldn't cost it based on bad dice. And I feel like this is the core problem i.e. that one game where Soontir whiffed or you made a mistake really sticks out in your mind, but the dozen other games where he ran circles around the opponent being virtually untouchable doesn't.

1) Doesn’t actually mean he’s not frail. Just means he has other means of defense.

2) But not guaranteed. Then he still has to worry about fickle green dice and his low health.

3) Wrong. I’ve seen him blocked to where he has bullseye on no one. It’s not a sure thing, but it means that getting the focus is not a guarantee, like you claim.

4) Every ship has this to some degree. The “just roll natties” strategy is universal, and the possibility of good luck shouldn’t be used as an indictment against a single ship.

6 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Archetypes that are not I6 and therefore frequently do not get to shoot at Soontir and when they do, do little or no damage. Turns out, about 90% of the game is this archetype.

So, you don't know how to play against Soontir...

I think you missed the part where we told you that he dies to one shot

Also, he randomly gets crit with stuff that really cripples him, like damaged engine.

8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

This is my problem with this argument:

1- Soontir's primary option is to not get shot entirely with a good dial and repo (and yes, not getting shot at does make a ship not frail). For this option, Soontirs health and agility don't matter at all because, not getting shot at will not result in damage

2- If he is getting shot at, he can still repo + focus to reduce quality or number of shots and have a mod for the ones that get through

3- if he gets blocked, he gets a focus

4- even if literally all of that fails, you have to contend with a number of green dice that very ships beat, therefore he usually also has the backup option of "roll high, lol"

He always has defenses he can fall back on. That's just...not frail. It's more vulnerable to bad RNG with the 3 hull, but much not costing a ship based on bad play, you also shouldn't cost it based on bad dice. And I feel like this is the core problem i.e. that one game where Soontir whiffed or you made a mistake really sticks out in your mind, but the dozen other games where he ran circles around the opponent being virtually untouchable doesn't.

Saying repo makes him not frail is strange. It needs him to play intelligent and not get shot at. Where a strong chassis can take a shot.

Below frail from dictionary;

"frail

/freɪl/

adjective

(of a person) weak and delicate.

"his small, frail body" "

I would say Soontir's body is (Interceptor chassis) is frail and thus he needs to play smart rather than joust etc. Repo out of arc is being smart/dodgy pilot and not strong.

Also once again you are putting words in my mouth. I never said ships should be costed based on possible bad dice rolls or bad plays. Yet it should be costed with things in mind like having 3 green dice (costing more than 2 etc.) a good action economy, I6, but also for only having 3 Hull etc.

Yes I remember the whiff(s), but I also remember him doing great stuff and know both sides can skew judgement just as easily.

1 minute ago, Revanur said:

Saying repo makes him not frail is strange. It needs him to play intelligent and not get shot at. Where a strong chassis can take a shot.

Saying the ability to outright remove dice from the table doesn't add to the durability of a ship is pretty strange to me. If Soontir arc dodges out of 2 X-Wings, but dies to a third, that was still 9 red dice and he only had to roll against 3 of it and that batch he had to roll against he could have a token for. He removed 6 red dice from the table, but you'd still call him frail because the 3 he couldn't remove he had poor RNG against? Repoing adds to overall ship durability and for me that's what a discussion about frailty comes down to, not just a metric like total hp.

Soontir is super efficient for his points though that doesn’t make him under costed. Though I can understand the argument saying he is under costed.

For me personally the issue is there are so many ways and options in the form of other imperial ships that are not Defenders, which are either: Under costed for what they do (Phantoms). Extremely efficient for their points and what they do (Interceptors/Strikers) Both under costed and efficient.

Pair those things with Crew that enhances those effects and you get the appearance of being too cheap. That’s also the Empires mantra cheap effective and efficient. I’m much more inclined to say TIE Phantom Aces and Inquisitors and under costed before I would look at Soontir.

2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Saying the ability to outright remove dice from the table doesn't add to the durability of a ship is pretty strange to me. If Soontir arc dodges out of 2 X-Wings, but dies to a third, that was still 9 red dice and he only had to roll against 3 of it and that batch he had to roll against he could have a token for. He removed 6 red dice from the table, but you'd still call him frail because the 3 he couldn't remove he had poor RNG against? Repoing adds to overall ship durability and for me that's what a discussion about frailty comes down to, not just a metric like total hp.

He’s not removing dice from the table. Getting a shot is never guaranteed. And you kind of prove our point about him being fragile when you say you don’t need those 6 other dice to kill him.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

He’s not removing dice from the table. Getting a shot is never guaranteed. And you kind of prove our point about him being fragile when you say you don’t need those 6 other dice to kill him.

You do need those 6 other dice, because if they're not working to cut off zones, Soontir can dodge the one ship that got a shot instead of dodging the two that didn't get shots.

He's an amazingly good ship, and good with a wide range of upgrades against a wide range of opposing ships.

Just because he suffers for egregious mistakes or risky plays (as opposed to Jedi, who don't), doesn't mean he's not undercosted.

I don't know the number of times I've intentionally exposed Soontir to get something off the table because he's so cheap and I could afford to lose him. It's a bad way to play with Soontir overall, but it works a stupid amount of the time. What does it say that a ship good enough to be a game closer, but also cheap enough to risk tossing away in a trade?

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

He’s not removing dice from the table. Getting a shot is never guaranteed. And you kind of prove our point about him being fragile when you say you don’t need those 6 other dice to kill him.

An opponent who was previous rolling 9 dice is now rolling 3 because of your reposition...how did you not remove 6 dice?

... this is all I got.

12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

If Soontir arc dodges out of 2 X-Wings, but dies to a third, that was still 9 red dice and he only had to roll against 3 of it and that batch he had to roll against he could have a token for.

I don't believe that in this hipothetical matchup and with average skill, Soontir could win.

I think Soontir could win (and I think that's the idea - is an Ace, isn't it?) against two X-Wings, but against three is almost imposible to destroy enough points with time limit.

This illustrates that although Soontir could be very difficult to kill, is only three attack dice more worried about not getting shot.

Again, how DarkArk said, if he isn't point fortressing is less a problem, right?

4 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I don't believe that in this hipothetical matchup and with average skill, Soontir could win.

I think Soontir could win (and I think that's the idea - is an Ace, isn't it?) against two X-Wings, but against three is almost imposible to destroy enough points with time limit.

This illustrates that although Soontir could be very difficult to kill, is only three attack dice more worried about not getting shot.

Again, how DarkArk said, if he isn't point fortressing is less a problem, right?

It's assumed that the Imperials have other ships in this scenario. Ones that aren't being shot because the X-wings are chasing Soontir.

18 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Saying the ability to outright remove dice from the table doesn't add to the durability of a ship is pretty strange to me. If Soontir arc dodges out of 2 X-Wings, but dies to a third, that was still 9 red dice and he only had to roll against 3 of it and that batch he had to roll against he could have a token for. He removed 6 red dice from the table, but you'd still call him frail because the 3 he couldn't remove he had poor RNG against? Repoing adds to overall ship durability and for me that's what a discussion about frailty comes down to, not just a metric like total hp.

Being able to arc dodge for sure makes him more sustainable than if he didn't have it. It for sure helps him stay alive. Those are strengths Soontir has. Still leaves him with a frail chassis. If the chassis wasn't as frail he wouldn't need to rely as much on arc dodging for defence and could take a shot and know he will live for sure.

I am not saying that it is not good, but saying repo's buff up his body is a strange way to look at it in my eyes.

Take a frail thin man and put him against a big strong boxer. If the thin man can outrun/out move the strong but slower boxer he doesn't become strong. He has still a frail body, but he won on other strengths.

Hence I would call Soontir a fragile Ace where Vader isn't a fragile Ace.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It's assumed that the Imperials have other ships in this scenario. Ones that aren't being shot because the X-wings are chasing Soontir.

Yes, I know, but I want to talk about other related issues. Also...

17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I don't know the number of times I've intentionally exposed Soontir to get something off the table because he's so cheap and I could afford to lose him. It's a bad way to play with Soontir overall, but it works a stupid amount of the time. What does it say that a ship good enough to be a game closer, but also cheap enough to risk tossing away in a trade?

And maybe because you have a better board position or more valuable pieces you win more doing that?

That's not a signal that the problem isn't the expendable ship?

12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

An opponent who was previous rolling 9 dice is now rolling 3 because of your reposition...how did you not remove 6 dice?

Because I can do the exact same thing with a lambda shuttle. I preform a move that wasn’t planned on and I’ve “removed” 6 dice. It’s just part of the game. Reposition actions are still part of movement, and I have yet to be convinced otherwise. It’s not removal when it was never guaranteed in the first place.

19 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

You do need those 6 other dice, because if they're not working to cut off zones, Soontir can dodge the one ship that got a shot instead of dodging the two that didn't get shots.

He's an amazingly good ship, and good with a wide range of upgrades against a wide range of opposing ships.

Just because he suffers for egregious mistakes or risky plays (as opposed to Jedi, who don't), doesn't mean he's not undercosted.

I don't know the number of times I've intentionally exposed Soontir to get something off the table because he's so cheap and I could afford to lose him. It's a bad way to play with Soontir overall, but it works a stupid amount of the time. What does it say that a ship good enough to be a game closer, but also cheap enough to risk tossing away in a trade?

Now your are describing tactics, not the need for the dice themselves. Doesn’t disprove that Fel is frail.

He is an amazingly good ship. One that can evaporate easily as well. That must be factored into cost and I believe is in the current price.

Like you, I’ve seen Fel take risks and survive. I’ve also seen him burn and die for it. Same with a lot of other ships. It’s part of the game.

So my thing is that traditionally I fly low-initiative lists with no named pilots (maybe 1 with a support ability)- Generics are my thing.

This worlds I was kinda depressed going into it, as there was a serious problem with my list style- Force aces could opportunistically arc dodge my **** , joust without dying, and alpha strike/PS kill me.

As a guy whose most flown named/unique pilot is ******* TN-3465, I (reluctantly) picked up Soontir as a ship to deal with the massive swathes of i5-i6 aces who have easy access to double mods and low-consequence repositioning. (Note, soontir is one of those ships too). I did not have 'ace experience'

Holy **** is Soontir easy. I made cut at worlds without real difficulty with him. His potential bullseye net with repo is huge. The ability to switch between double offensive (targeting computer baby) and defensive mods WHILE STILL REPOSITIONING is insane. He shrugs off shots with F+E, or gets behind people and has R1 bullseye Focus+Lock+Crack shots to dunk on stuff.

He's clearly worth more than 57 as a Targeting Comp+Crack loadout, and TC and Crack are far from anazing on generic ships.

If you think Soontir is hard to fly or fragile, unironically Git Gud. Aces are not hard. They aren't 1.0 turret/Caveman unga bunga easy, but they sure as **** aren't hard.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Because I can do the exact same thing with a lambda shuttle. I preform a move that wasn’t planned on and I’ve “removed” 6 dice. It’s just part of the game. Reposition actions are still part of movement, and I have yet to be convinced otherwise. It’s not removal when it was never guaranteed in the first place.

...yeah, it'll be really surprising when that I6 Lamba pulls a hard 1 then boosts and rolls out of your arc....

10 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I think Soontir could win (and I think that's the idea - is an Ace, isn't it?) against two X-Wings, but against three is almost imposible to destroy enough points with time limit.

S oontir is a 53 point ship, maybe 60ish with upgrades, and it's accepted as natural that he could win against 80 points of X-Wings. But he's not undercosted??

And for the record, I agree! Soontir would make two generic X-Wings look like clowns! And against three, he's so cheap he could afford an entire **** Decimator to help out!

This thread is seriously straining my connection to reality. Yes, Soontir can theoretically get blasted off the table by a 3 dice shot at range 3. No, that doesn't happen often enough to affect his performance.

He's one of the absolute most common pilots in the game, and has one of the highest average performance rates. He's being dragged towards the mean by incredible usage numbers and resisting it by performing so well so consistently that he's still a dominant pilot on average , not in some data twisting where we ignore the bottom 80% of placings.