I cant think of any ship that I'd expect to take 20% more than his own points cost more regularly that doesn't have Force. If your only comparison is Jedi, he seems pretty acceptably priced. If your comparison is everything else, he's plainly not.

2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

No, the Imperial player needs practice, they don't have to fly better. The reason they don't have to fly better is because they have an I6 ace with a great dial, double repo and that's bafflingly cheap enough to still afford a bid. You can afford to fly significantly worse than the other player and still have the double repo as a safety blanket (and even if you get blocked, you probably still get a focus and can lean on triple greens to bail you out wheres Wedge is almost universally dead in such a position). Wedge is just an X-Wing, he takes one action and frequently just gets caught and dies unless you spend serious effort to try and make that not happen.

Expect that flying includes the double repositioning and it isn’t an Omni-GTFO trick.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Expect that flying includes the double repositioning and it isn’t an Omni-GTFO trick.

Double repo in any order does not require skill, it's a crutch

7 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

No, the Imperial player needs practice, they don't have to fly better. The reason they don't have to fly better is because they have an I6 ace with a great dial, double repo and that's bafflingly cheap enough to still afford a bid. You can afford to fly significantly worse than the other player and still have the double repo as a safety blanket (and even if you get blocked, you probably still get a focus and can lean on triple greens to bail you out wheres Wedge is almost universally dead in such a position). Wedge is just an X-Wing, he takes one action and frequently just gets caught and dies unless you spend serious effort to try and make that not happen.

HAHA "baffingly cheap Ace" He is 2 points less than Wedge, who has access to a 0 point upgrade to give him a boost which he can flip before he activates to give him his full firepower. So no, If you are flying Wedge just like another X Wing, you are probably flying him badly. You can easily add in a cheap coordinator to give him a TL or Focus, whether AP 5 or Jake Farrell. Like I said earlier, he is cheap in a list, he isn't undercosted.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

Double repo in any order does not require skill, it's a crutch

To be blunt, this is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

I think I'll leave it at that you have a drastic misunderstanding of the planning that goes into repositioning play. Some ships like Jedi (and very arguably Soontir) don't pay a high enough point cost relative to their in-game benefit/in-game cost ratio, but repositioning has a benefit and a cost that needs to be factored into the decision-making processes of both players.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Double repo in any order does not require skill, it's a crutch

Disagree. It’s been in the game since the beginning and belongs in the game just as much as ships with out repositioning. It isn’t an aberration to be abhorred and wished away. It is an element of the game. Perhaps learning to accept that things you don’t like can still have a place will help your enjoyment of the game? It has for me.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Disagree. It’s been in the game since the beginning and belongs in the game just as much as ships with out repositioning. It isn’t an aberration to be abhorred and wished away. It is an element of the game. Perhaps learning to accept that things you don’t like can still have a place will help your enjoyment of the game? It has for me.

That has nothing to do with whether or not double repositioning at i6 is easy or hard?

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Double repo in any order does not require skill, it's a crutch

Afterburners and TIE Strikers can sod off then, I guess.

18 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Double repo in any order does not require skill, it's a crutch

11 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

To be blunt, this is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

I think I'll leave it at that you have a drastic misunderstanding of the planning that goes into repositioning play. Some ships like Jedi (and very arguably Soontir) don't pay a high enough point cost relative to their in-game benefit/in-game cost ratio, but repositioning has a benefit and a cost that needs to be factored into the decision-making processes of both players.

Is it the terminology you don't like? It sounds like you two are agreeing. "Crutch" vs "don't pay enough for abilities" seems pretty similar to me.

1 minute ago, KCDodger said:

Afterburners and TIE Strikers can sod off then, I guess.

There are two meaningful differences:

1. it's not doublerepo in the sense which he imo clearly talks about, as it does the same repo twice. "Double repo" means normally "boost and roll"

2. it's mandatory, which makes strikers much harder to play. Soontir would be way worse if he had to roll and/or boost every turn.

It's like people in this thread want to misunderstand each other and use the worst possible reading so they can fight...

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

There are two meaningful differences:

1. it's not doublerepo in the sense which he imo clearly talks about, as it does the same repo twice. "Double repo" means normally "boost and roll"

2. it's mandatory, which makes strikers much harder to play. Soontir would be way worse if he had to roll and/or boost every turn.

It's like people in this thread want to misunderstand each other and use the worst possible reading so they can fight...

In top of that, i6. An i6 Striker would be not okay. Duchess is pretty much borderline not okay.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That has nothing to do with whether or not double repositioning at i6 is easy or hard?

I think it does. If your perception is that double repositioning is an alien thing put upon a simple game, then it is easier to view it negatively and assign it the “easy” label. Based on observations, this seems to be the attitude of many who voice displeasure with Fel, yourself included. Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted what I’ve seen said, but this wouldn’t be the first time that a choice of words caused confusion.

I think what you are seeking is better fulfilled by looking at the base rules of Initiative rather than playing whack-a-mole with perceived individual offenders.

• An entire list of Imperial Aces is certainly too cheap, I don't think there'd be any serious disagreement to that.
• An entire list of Imperial Aces often includes Soontir. So Soontir is part of a lot of lists which are too cheap.
• Is Soontir himself too cheap? Eh, I guess.
  • I think nearly all Init 6 and most Init 5 is too cheap.
  • There are worse offenders, but Soontir going up as part of a widescale effort to make Aces pay their taxes is totally fine.

//

• Is Soontir easy or hard? Naw, he's medium.
  • Double repo covers up nearly all inaccuracies, many mistakes, but not a tonne of blunders.
  • Does that require some skill at piloting? Sure. You can't make bad mistakes with Soontir, but you also don't have to fly perfect.
    • There's a lot of ships out there, however, which kind of *do* need perfect play to be effective.
      • That's frequently because they're worse ships than Soontir, which probably means he is undercosted.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Double repo covers up nearly all inaccuracies, many mistakes, but not a tonne of blunders.

That's a nice way to put it. Also, I like the idea of adapting inaccuracies mistakes and blunders.

It also reminds me of a discussion about RZ2s. A blunder is game ending, but an inaccuracy or mistake can be corrected by the actions. Soontir is even more extreme, and that's why he can be perceived as easy or hard depending on whether the pilot still blunders or not. Implying of course that blunders decrease over time.

17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

In top of that, i6. An i6 Striker would be not okay. Duchess is pretty much borderline not okay.

Thanks for pointing that out!

I'd agree that free order boost+roll at i6 WITH the ability to get a focus is on the easy side of things in this game. Or at least as soon as you don't blunder anymore.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Duncan Howard as finalist in the Pax Unplugged System Open like 2 weeks ago.

With Shield Upgrade...

Two things to consider:

- Soontir is much better in hands of good players (even without upgrades).

- A pure Ace squad reinforces the value of each piece. Isn't a single pilot problem. Is more about the archetype.

6 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

With Shield Upgrade...

Two things to consider:

- Soontir is much better in hands of good players (even without upgrades).

- A pure Ace squad reinforces the value of each piece. Isn't a single pilot problem. Is more about the archetype.

It looks like both targeting computer and stealth device perform better than shield and hull upgrades, but only during swiss. Shield and hull are better in cuts. Also funny that afterburners does best in swiss of all mods, and worst in cut. It's also rather rare that Soontir has both of them.

35 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

• An entire list of Imperial Aces is certainly too cheap, I don't think there'd be any serious disagreement to that.
• An entire list of Imperial Aces often includes Soontir. So Soontir is part of a lot of lists which are too cheap.
• Is Soontir himself too cheap? Eh, I guess.
  • I think nearly all Init 6 and most Init 5 is too cheap.
  • There are worse offenders, but Soontir going up as part of a widescale effort to make Aces pay their taxes is totally fine.

//

• Is Soontir easy or hard? Naw, he's medium.
  • Double repo covers up nearly all inaccuracies, many mistakes, but not a tonne of blunders.
  • Does that require some skill at piloting? Sure. You can't make bad mistakes with Soontir, but you also don't have to fly perfect.
    • There's a lot of ships out there, however, which kind of *do* need perfect play to be effective.
      • That's frequently because they're worse ships than Soontir, which probably means he is undercosted.

Probably a better way to put it than "he requires practice, not skill"...but I like mine better

I think the reason Soontir is so divisive is because of how efficient he is.

For the standard ace play, you don't really need more than 3 Hull, as you're not supposed to take shots. If you do take shots, however you're done for.

The value of Soontir comes exclusively from how well you can arc-dodge. If you can't at all, then he is probably worth 48 points or something. If you can however, then his value could easilybe in the seventies.

This thursday i actually played a game with Soontir, Vader and Vynder against 3 Jedi (Obi, Plo and Mace) and Soontir was able to do whatever i wanted because i didn't commit a mistake nor did my opponent put enough pressure on him . That's not to say Soontir is overpowered however, as I've had Soontir die against 2 torrents at range 3, making his value in that game actually 0, since he wasn't even able to do a single damage in return. Soontir is also extrmely fragile to blocking , since he can't reposition and could easily die to a couple of shots, and that's something that the Nantex or maybe even the jedi are not as vulnerable too.

What points am I trying to make?

First, double repositioning is not a crutch, but the best tool that Soontir has, which actually makes him viable. I don't think Soontir would be played competitively without autothrusters.

Second, Soontir's value (and therefore his points cost) are very dependant on context , since he is very mediocre on the hands of a novice but a big threat (with actual counterplay) on the hands of a veteran.

Ultimately the points of Soontir depend on what the priority for FFG is: if they want to keep him interesting on casual tables, his cost is fine. If they want him to be balanced considering the best player skill, then maybe he should go up to 56 or somethinglike that

To say it again... Soontir is 4th most common ship in the game and still has a cut rate higher than all but a handful of pilots.

That's not "sometimes he does well in the hands of the very best, but other times he wipes out in the hands of most players". He is one of the most consistently over-performing pilots in the entire game.

2 hours ago, gennataos said:

Rename to “Are you and/or people you know not good with Soontir” and these results don’t surprise me.

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

I was just thinking this after reading all the "fragile" comments.

To say everyone that finds an Interceptor chassis fragile a bad player is unnecessarily insulting.

The fact that Soontir stays alive in the hands of a practised player is because they fly him cautiously and keep him out of harm's way. Why do they do that? Right, because he's fragile.

In the hands of an inexperienced player he is not just fragile, but likely dead.

There's a difference between calling something fragile and not knowing how to play with it.

2 minutes ago, Revanur said:

To say everyone that finds an Interceptor chassis fragile a bad player is unnecessarily insulting.

The fact that Soontir stays alive in the hands of a practised player is because they fly him cautiously and keep him out of harm's way. Why do they do that? Right, because he's fragile.

In the hands of an inexperienced player he is not just fragile, but likely dead.

There's a difference between calling something fragile and not knowing how to play with it.

A ship should never be costed on the assumption that the controlling player is bad. That's like arguing Nantexes should be cheaper because a new player might not understand the tractor interactions. You can learn to play Soontir well, but an opponent confronted with Soontir cannot learn to get the points back that you saved by him being udnercosted.

4 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A ship should never be costed on the assumption that the controlling player is bad. That's like arguing Nantexes should be cheaper because a new player might not understand the tractor interactions. You can learn to play Soontir well, but an opponent confronted with Soontir cannot learn to get the points back that you saved by him being udnercosted.

I never implied that. I find his cost about right even in the hands of a good player. Can maybe go up a point or 2, but certainly not 7+ as what I was replying to in my post I named him fragile. Nothing should be costed based on skill.

Still doesn't mean I must be a bad player who faces only bad players for naming him/his chassis fragile.

On learning against playing Soontir. A lot apparently find facing Aces a problem, but I enjoy playing against a skilled aces player a lot more and learn more from it then facing swarms and beef all the time.

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

To say it again... Soontir is 4th most common ship in the game and still has a cut rate higher than all but a handful of pilots.

That's not "sometimes he does well in the hands of the very best, but other times he wipes out in the hands of most players". He is one of the most consistently over-performing pilots in the entire game.

A single Ace isn't a problem even in good hands, is the whole squad.

We don't see the same performing level of the Ace + Miniswarm squad that I think are very thematic in the Empire and is enabled with a light Soontir with just Predator.

Pair a heavy Soontir with Darth Vader and you have a very different matchup. A very consistent damage with one of the best arc-dodgers in the game.

If you can remove one piece early you have more options, but a conservative play of an opponent, bad dice or defensive upgrades makes this more complicated.

That's why I think that remove the mod slots (or at least one of them) is better than increase his cost.

3 minutes ago, Revanur said:

I never implied that. I find his cost about right even in the hands of a good player. Can maybe go up a point or 2, but certainly not 7+ as what I was replying to in my post I named him fragile. Nothing should be costed based on skill.

Still doesn't mean I must be a bad player who faces only bad players for naming him/his chassis fragile.

On learning against playing Soontir. A lot apparently find facing Aces a problem, but I enjoy playing against a skilled aces player a lot more and learn more from it then facing swarms and beef all the time.

A ship with 3 green, that gets a focus even while blocked or repoing and that can double repo to remove shots, is just not frail.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A ship with 3 green, that gets a focus even while blocked or repoing and that can double repo to remove shots, is just not frail.

It is when the focus isn’t guaranteed (in either case), has three health base, and has more to consider than just firing arcs.