So far in this game the only thing that has stood out to me as potentially unbalanced is using allies to block big villain attacks. It seems like right now Leadership is better at stopping damage than Protection. It just doesn't matter if Ultron is about to beam you in the face for 10 if Maria Hill can just jump in front with her 1 HP and negate it all.

The only time I've felt like the heroes were really in danger was when Rhino had Charge attached or against Goblin and he's doing a lot of indirect damage.

It just gets even better when there are a bunch of abilities that trigger on the villain damaging you, which they never will.

Does anyone else think this is too efficient? Should encounter decks have more Overkill and ally sweeping effects? Should this maybe be nerfed by a house rule that a villain always does like half Overkill or something?

Eh, you’re losing out on potentially very strong thwart and attack for it, and it only works once per cost paid, with the exception of Luke Cage if you hit him in the tough card (which is the ideal strategy against Charge anyways). It’s an option, and often the right one, but I don’t think it’s always a no-brainer to the point of being overpowered.

I do not find this to be an issue. My current strongest deck in solo hero mode is Agro Spiderman and I under Ally resource the deck by not including Hulk (reasons). It is at least an equally viable strategy to use control and damage to kick the villains *** by turn 5. If Ally walls were the end-all they would need to out-perform the 2/3 win percentage I am currently enjoying with Spidey. This may happen but is not currently happening.

I do think it's too strong. Playing allies have a bonus Stun (that can be stacked with actual stun) attached to them, making any small ally able to prevent a large amount of damage. If you play an ally every turn, you mitigate every attack activation, leaving you just to deal with the encounter deck flip and the natural 1 threat. When allies can cost as little as 2, that leaves you with half a hand and a hero activation to keep up. It's just efficient. For example, compare Spider-Man's Webbed Up to Mockingbird. Webbed up prevents two attacks for 4 cost (and is a hero action.) Mockingbird prevents 1 attack, absorbs one more attack, and thwarts for 1 or 2, for just 3 cost. Once I made that connection, Mockingbird became an auto-include in every deck I made. Her only drawback is that in multiplayer games, someone else might already be playing her, which is a problem I haven't really run into much, due to primarily solo play.

Their biggest advantage, though, is in emergency blocks. Maybe I played Falcon, thwarted with him, and meant to use him next turn, but Rhino flipped a Stampede and nobody was ready to take that hit. Having an ally in play is just a solid backup plan. Being able to negate 'when villain damages you' abilities (like Stampede's stun and Green Goblin's threat-on-scheme) is another solid upside.

I really think that we'll see a lot more overkill boost cards in order to tackle this. Or maybe it'll just be that 'dangerous module' that has a lot of overkill, and some villains will naturally overkill, and sometimes allies will be good and sometimes they won't.

But in general, adding a free block on each ally in addition to their abilities and thwarting pushes them over the resource curve, in my experience.

@AradonTemplar Fair enough. My only rebuttal for Webbed Up > Mockingbird is that I’d often rather the villain not attack at all. Against Rhino, Charge is the big issue due to Overkill. Against Klaw, you’re avoiding the extra boost card that gives him that much more of a chance to pull a Star Boost effect and put a Weapons Runner into play or worse. Against Ultron, you’re avoiding the extra drone spawn opportunity.

Mockingbird is more versatile, yes, and usually an auto-include for my solo play as well, but not quite a straight upgrade in the way you describe.

Maybe once Confuse becomes more commonplace, I'll start valuing stuns a bit lower. Flipping to recover really hurts in solo play, where one scheme might just advance you automatically.

A 2 cost ally, will take 3 cards to play, the ally itself and 2 others (most of the time) and when you have a hand size of 5 that is over half the cards you have.

As such they should be good shouldn't they?

3 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

I do think it's too strong. Playing allies have a bonus Stun (that can be stacked with actual stun) attached to them, making any small ally able to prevent a large amount of damage. If you play an ally every turn, you mitigate every attack activation, leaving you just to deal with the encounter deck flip and the natural 1 threat. When allies can cost as little as 2, that leaves you with half a hand and a hero activation to keep up. It's just efficient. For example, compare Spider-Man's Webbed Up to Mockingbird. Webbed up prevents two attacks for 4 cost (and is a hero action.) Mockingbird prevents 1 attack, absorbs one more attack, and thwarts for 1 or 2, for just 3 cost. Once I made that connection, Mockingbird became an auto-include in every deck I made. Her only drawback is that in multiplayer games, someone else might already be playing her, which is a problem I haven't really run into much, due to primarily solo play.

Their biggest advantage, though, is in emergency blocks. Maybe I played Falcon, thwarted with him, and meant to use him next turn, but Rhino flipped a Stampede and nobody was ready to take that hit. Having an ally in play is just a solid backup plan. Being able to negate 'when villain damages you' abilities (like Stampede's stun and Green Goblin's threat-on-scheme) is another solid upside.

I really think that we'll see a lot more overkill boost cards in order to tackle this. Or maybe it'll just be that 'dangerous module' that has a lot of overkill, and some villains will naturally overkill, and sometimes allies will be good and sometimes they won't.

But in general, adding a free block on each ally in addition to their abilities and thwarting pushes them over the resource curve, in my experience.

I don’t particularly disagree with any of this. Allies are very strong, for the reasons you describe.

But it’s a little off to say “if you play an ally each turn”

They cost 3 or 4 in almost all cases. Spending half or more of your hand on them. I’m not sure it’s sustainable to do that most turns. Nor is it possible of course, because people don’t have that many allies in their deck.

Plus there’s decks, like Panther and Iron Man, where you have different priorities, like building your suit.

I also think other villains will be very anti ally, just like some villains are minion heavy, others are scheme heavy, etc. Someone like Dr. Octopus could attack hero and all allies at once, so now allies cant block.

FFG will mix it up.

I think we definitely will see more anti-ally villians in the future

Even the Wrecking Crew has quite a bit of ally hate. One has aoe, one has retaliate, and one has overkill. I think it will be an interesting scenario.

Under Attack has the nasty Concussion Blast as well, which punishes the tactic of blocking with an ally on 1 health - if you draw it as a boost, it does 1 damage to all characters, takes the ally out then leaves the attack undefended.

Its definitely a powerful tactic, especially in solo where you can’t afford to heal as much, as you need to use alter ego sparingly, but I wouldn’t say it’s too good. Ally’s are generally quite expensive (2 cost allies arguably being some of the strongest cards in the game admittedly) and the villain can often attack more than once a round. I think as long as they design scenarios in a way that provides some risk / counter to allies then it’s fine.

At first I didn’t wanted a ally with Spider-Man. I even use Black Cat rather for paid another card.

but once I play ally with other hero’s I see their value. And since that I read many comment advising to never keep card between round. And trust is taht spider without ally I lost many time.

That Saïd, I see on the Facebook group someone put a constructed scenarii campaign for Champions with all the card you have in US for now. And at first he seem to let only Maria as a valid ally (all others leadership, aggressive, protection, justice or basique allies are get along the campaign).

On 1/4/2020 at 3:42 AM, jonboyjon1990 said:

I don’t particularly disagree with any of this. Allies are very strong, for the reasons you describe.

But it’s a little off to say “if you play an ally each turn”

They cost 3 or 4 in almost all cases. Spending half or more of your hand on them. I’m not sure it’s sustainable to do that most turns. Nor is it possible of course, because people don’t have that many allies in their deck.

Plus there’s decks, like Panther and Iron Man, where you have different priorities, like building your suit.

Yeah that was my first thought reading AradonTemplar's analysis. If you are buying an ally a turn and then killing them off every turn then you are never really building a board. Also maybe you can squeak out a win that way, but it will probably take forever to win considering the big swing plays usually come from playing events or building an efficiency engine with your assets on the board. Even Leadership (which is where you find the decks that want to try and play as many allies as possible) is rewarded for keeping their allies around for a several turns. Sure Mockingbird, Nick Fury and Maria Hill all like to arrive, do something then tank a hit. Though that's not the design of every ally in the game. Obviously Black Cat, Hellcat, Tigra (all the cat themed ladies) like to stick around and not take a hit to get maximum benefit. Hawkeye wants to use up his counters before tanking a hit. Hulks value explodes if he sticks around for more than one activation.

Then it comes down to the ally activation being sometimes more useful than the heroes so you might as well take the hit on the hero and flip to recover or actually use your defense stat if the hero favors that play (or has some benefit like retaliate). There are definitely many times in my experience where that is the way more beneficial play. This is especially true if someone at the table is playing Inspired on an ally that can stick around. Also if healing is a possibility. Certainly heroes like Spiderman, She-Hulk, Black Panther and Captain America like to take hits. Especially if any of them are built for Protection.

Add: Don't get me wrong. Allies are maybe the most power type of card in the hero game, but they also have drawbacks of being unique and they have a cap on how many can come be played down at a time. Also they usually end up being 3+ cost cards which are significantly expensive without some other econ acceleration on the board. So there are just times when they are not the most optimal play in hand (or even a legal play).

Stat wise, most allies are usually equivalent to minions, while elite minions are superior to allies and will often take entire turns if not multiple turns to deal with. Although it may be over simplistic, but they should be a foil to one another.

I think Allies are very strong, but there is a value fallacy here. In most card games, the cards with the most value (i.e. winning the numbers game) are not always the best. In terms of Marvel Champions, Allies don't have burst. Yes, an ally with 3 life and 2 damage is a card that deals 6 damage, but it allows the villain three turns. One of those Encounter cards could be a healing Event, or a Minion.

Similarily, they can't handle bursts of threat from the villain very well. A "For Justice" could instantly take out a side scheme, or stop the villain from reaching its next stage.

That is why allies actually have additional abilities. They are strong, but definetly not OP. Consider Uppercut: You pay 3 and do 5 damage, getting closer to your win condition. The villain gets one Attack in. Mockingbird costs the same, does 2 damage and blocks an Attack. But the villain plays 3 Encounter cards, and one of those 3 rounds will be able to attack you.

Allies are excellent for burst. It allows you to play an ally in a turn where less is going on, and save those resources for turns where there is more immediate danger. Playing Maria Hill is immediately 2 thwart (and a card), and next turn you can use her for 2 thwart again, for free, increasing your burst cap. That's literally what the Avengers Assemble deck is about. There's not a burstier deck than that.

As for "If you're playing an ally a turn, you're not doing anything else," that's pretty ridiculous. Most allies cost 3, using 4 of your cards. If you've drawn 6 cards, you still can play a 1-cost card. If you've drawn any extra from alter-ego side abilities, or have played a helicarrier, or have resource cards, you're playing a 3-cost ally and a 2 drop, maybe more. If you're not in a position to play an ally and something else, then do whatever else is good for your board state. But considering that an ally eats an attack and provides immediate value, simply buying yourself time for a better turn is not a bad option either.

And while I said "if you play an ally every turn," it's obviously not always feasible. I was trying to describe the blanket power provided by allies, in that they can negate a full half of the villain activation, in addition to some thwart or attack. Leadership decks probably could get away with playing an ally every turn or close to it, thanks to Make the Call, but other factions don't always have the allies in hand. If they did though, they are generally a strong contender for what to play that turn.

My experience so far has only been about a dozen solo plays, mostly as Aggressive Iron Man but I haven't had a problem with allies. I agree they're mostly modestly priced upgrades that offer a lot of flexibility. You get a useful ability and a boost to your attack/thwart and essentially defend.

The ally that my play experience has given me some pause is Hulk. I've had bad luck using him to attack (2 for 2 having to discard him) but now I use him solely as a meat shield. It's not hard for him to soak up a few small hits and still keep him around to block a real whopper. My most recent game against Ultron he took 4 damage from drones and a villain card over a few turns and then later when Ultron hit phase 2 and wound up doing 6 damage in one attack he took the hit for me.

2 resources for what was essentially +10HP is a real bargain. That was an extreme example but even if he just took a 6 damage attack all at once that'd still be a good play. Maybe this ally version of Hulk, especially being in the Aggression aspect, could be reworked? What if he couldn't be used to defend but instead his "Discard Hulk" random result was switched to "Hulk takes 1 damage"? 2 damage?

But, are we playing with bad allies because allies are just too strong or because we are starved for choice?

-Are we playing with Black Widow, whose ability is dubious at best, because she is available and can soak a hit?

In our playgroup, yes.

-Are we playing with Hulk, who is fine in single player, but whose text can utterly sabotage a multiplayer game of Champions, because he is available and soak a hit?

In our playgroup, yes, but only as a giant meat shield.

-Are we playing with Lockjaw, the card that epitomizes what we're talking about here - soak a big hit and buy again next turn over and over again for forever and in any deck we want?

In my playgroup, yes. Just get some economy boosters down and never take damage again while having your whole turn.

So, at least my playgroup is playing with "bad" allies because their side benefits are worth their costs.

Because, yeah, allies both having uncapped soak and the ability to defend for anybody is too strong.

For example, Leadership decks can stay heroes all game because soaking with allies essentially bypasses the Villain's turn. Also, scheme isn't happening either, so it's just an encounter card and back to the beatdown. Allies buy so much time, and adding cards like Make the Call and Get Ready exacerbates things.

On 1/3/2020 at 5:48 PM, HamHamJ2 said:

So far in this game the only thing that has stood out to me as potentially unbalanced is using allies to block big villain attacks. It seems like right now Leadership is better at stopping damage than Protection. It just doesn't matter if Ultron is about to beam you in the face for 10 if Maria Hill can just jump in front with her 1 HP and negate it all.

The only time I've felt like the heroes were really in danger was when Rhino had Charge attached or against Goblin and he's doing a lot of indirect damage.

It just gets even better when there are a bunch of abilities that trigger on the villain damaging you, which they never will.

Does anyone else think this is too efficient? Should encounter decks have more Overkill and ally sweeping effects? Should this maybe be nerfed by a house rule that a villain always does like half Overkill or something?

I wouldn’t say it’s too good, I’d just say that proper use of allies is a necessary component of gameplay if you want to win in most solo games. Without them, you’d very likely threat out or die early. That’s not a bad thing any more than saying that ATK or THW cards are important to winning/not losing.