Armor House Rule
12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:No i dont. In fact i jave been tellingnyou that fro. Page of this thread.
What you fail to grasp is that a failure caused by a hard armors defense means the attack failed. Which the only way that cannbe narrated that makes sense is the armor deflected the attack away. Which one way defense is described. You rigid insistance that a failed check must mean the attack hit nothing but air is your problem with your reading comprehension. You really ought to read the dice adjudication section.
By the way it very much can cause the attack to fail. Replace miss with fail. It fixes your issue.
And a failed attack is a miss . That is something Armor physically cannot cause . You fail to grasp that basic concept. The RAW requires a Successful attack roll for an attack to hit its target. A failed attack cannot hit. Armor cannot cause an attack to miss . The Armor Defense rule is very specific in that the Setback dice that specific form of Defense is supposed to provide is deflecting damage not cause an attack to miss. You cling to the main General Defense that provides an overview of how many different types of Defense might narratively provide that protection. The rules explicitly say that an attack must succeed in order for it to hit its target. Only Successful attacks hit. So yes, Failed attack rolls miss completely . They do not make contact. They hit nothing. Period. That is RAW.
20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:And a failed attack is a miss . That is something Armor physically cannot cause . You fail to grasp that basic concept. The RAW requires a Successful attack roll for an attack to hit its target. A failed attack cannot hit. Armor cannot cause an attack to miss . The Armor Defense rule is very specific in that the Setback dice that specific form of Defense is supposed to provide is deflecting damage not cause an attack to miss. You cling to the main General Defense that provides an overview of how many different types of Defense might narratively provide that protection. The rules explicitly say that an attack must succeed in order for it to hit its target. Only Successful attacks hit. So yes, Failed attack rolls miss completely . They do not make contact. They hit nothing. Period. That is RAW.
No. A failed attack is a failed attack. The book says so. Just because they use miss as a shorthand that rpgs have always used does not mean the attack does notnmake contact. This has been the standard since chainmaile.
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:No. A failed attack is a failed attack. The book says so. Just because they use miss as a shorthand that rpgs have always used does not mean the attack does notnmake contact. This has been the standard since chainmaile.
A failed attack is a MISS . The rules repeatedly state that it requires a Successful attack for the attack to hit . Therefore a failed attack is a miss. You can deny it all you like but that does not change that simple fact. A failed attack always misses.
For some reason I'm reminded of this. Who could possibly say why that is.
6 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:For some reason I'm reminded of this. Who could possibly say why that is.
Weird. I'm also reminded of this famous online discussion .
Huh. Wonder why that could be.
But also: deflection by armor can definitely cause an attack to miss.
1 hour ago, BrickSteelhead said:But also: deflection by armor can definitely cause an attack to miss.
Can it? Hm, I dunno. Maybe someone could provide arguments for/against it, so that I can see all the viewpoints on this.
(The sad part is...part of me feels the tug of pointing out the flaws in Tramp’s continued overly-rigid, pedantic, binary interpretation of the system. But it’s all been said before.)
Edited by Nytwyng1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:(The sad part is...part of me feels the tug of pointing out the flaws in Tramp’s continued overly-rigid, pedantic, binary interpretation of the system. But it’s all been said before.)
Dooooo iiiiiit.
18 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Dooooo iiiiiit.
Nope.
Let’s get outta here. Word to your mother.
-Vanilla Fett
16 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:A failed attack is a MISS . The rules repeatedly state that it requires a Successful attack for the attack to hit . Therefore a failed attack is a miss. You can deny it all you like but that does not change that simple fact. A failed attack always misses.
Odd. Squares are rectangles. But rectangles are not necessarily squares.
Life is not so binary and neither is the game.
Edited by Daeglan
3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:Nope.
Let’s get outta here. Word to your mother.
-Vanilla Fett
Just copy/paste some old posts from 30 pages ago. Nobody will notice.
5 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:Just copy/paste some old posts from 30 pages ago. Nobody will notice.
I was thinking of - well, once I run out of good Groundhog Day gifs - just pulling random posts from random threads....
18 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:I was thinking of - well, once I run out of good Groundhog Day gifs - just pulling random posts from random threads....
*Wookiee
On 8/22/2020 at 7:40 AM, BrickSteelhead said:Weird. I'm also reminded of this famous online discussion .
Huh. Wonder why that could be.
But also: deflection by armor can definitely cause an attack to miss.
No, it can’t because for the armor to deflect the damage , the attack must first hit the target wearing said armor. The rules explicitly state that an attack hits only if it is a successful attack roll. The wording is very specific:
- Item Qualities page 161: Active qualities require two Advantage to activate unless otherwise stated. Active Item qualities on weapons can only trigger on a successful attack, unless otherwise stated.
- Auto-fire (third paragraph) page 162: “If the attack hits , the attacker can trigger Auto-fire by spending two Advantage.
- Linked from page 164: “When firing a Linked weapon, on a successful attack, the weapon deals one hit. ”
- Base Damage page 165: “The base damage the weapon inflicts. This is the minimum damage inflicted if the attack hits . Each net Success generated during the attack adds one point of damage to this damage rating.” This corresponds with page 210 regarding Pooling Results which states that if the attack is Successful it adds +1 damage to the successful attack.
- Critical Rating page 165: A Critical Injury can only be triggered on a successful hit that deals damage that exceeds the target’s Soak value. This corresponds with page 210/211 Resolve Advantage and Triumph, paragraph two where it also says, “Remember, a Critical Injury can only be triggered on a successful hit that deals damage that exceeds the target’s Soak.”
- from Reduce Damage, Apply to Wound Threshold, and Apply Critical Injuries page 211: “ If the characters suffers damage from multiple hits in an attack, he applies his soak value to each hit individually.
The rules are clear. A hit is the explicit result of a successful attack, with additional hits being activated by specific weapon qualities, qualities which can only be triggered on a successful attack roll, on an attack that hits .
On 8/22/2020 at 9:37 AM, Stan Fresh said:Can it? Hm, I dunno. Maybe someone could provide arguments for/against it, so that I can see all the viewpoints on this.
21 hours ago, Daeglan said:Odd. Squares are rectangles. But rectangles are not necessarily squares.
Life is not so binary and neither is the game.
Hits are the “squares”, the Successes are the “rectangles”. The hits are not the general “rectangles”. Therefore, while not all Successful skill checks are “hits” because not all skill checks are attack rolls, all hits are the result of successful attack rolls. A hit is a type of Success; a hit is the result of a Success on a Combat Check. A Failed attack roll cannot hit.
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:Hits are the “squares”, the Successes are the “rectangles”. The hits are not the general “rectangles”. Therefore, while not all Successful skill checks are “hits” because not all skill checks are attack rolls, all hits are the result of successful attack rolls. A hit is a type of Success; a hit is the result of a Success on a Combat Check. A Failed attack roll cannot hit.
You have this exactly backwards.
Hits are rectangles. Successes are squares.
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:No, it can’t because for the armor to deflect the damage , the attack must first hit the target wearing said armor. The rules explicitly state that an attack hits only if it is a successful attack roll. The wording is very specific:
[...]
The rules are clear. A hit is the explicit result of a successful attack, with additional hits being activated by specific weapon qualities, qualities which can only be triggered on a successful attack roll, on an attack that hits .
You got it, dude. And something touching armor, but then being deflected away from that armor, makes it *not* successful, by the measure of the intention of the attacker, the desire of the attacked, and the emotional attachment to this story beat by everyone around the table.
bwahaha
2 hours ago, Daeglan said:You have this exactly backwards.
Hits are rectangles. Successes are squares.
Wrong . Hits are a subgroup of Success, just as squares are a subgroup of Rectangles. Not all Successes are hits but all hits are Successes. Just as not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles. Hit:Success=Square:Rectangle
Hit:Square=Success:Rectangle.
Rectangle:Success=Square:Hit.
Successes are the general broad category of positive results for Skill Checks. Hits are the specific Successes for Combat Checks. The rectangle is the general broad category of tetrahedron with four right angles. Squares are the specific rectangles with four equal sides. You have it backwards.
Edited by Tramp Graphics
2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Wrong . Hits are a subgroup of Success, just as squares are a subgroup of Rectangles. Not all Successes are hits but all hits are Successes. Just as not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles. Hit:Success=Square:Rectangle
Hit:Square=Success:Rectangle.
Rectangle:Success=Square:Hit.
Successes are the general broad category of positive results for Skill Checks. Hits are the specific Successes for Combat Checks. The rectangle is the general broad category of tetrahedron with four right angles. Squares are the specific rectangles with four equal sides. You have it backwards.
And this iis why you atre backwards.
Not all contacts are successful attacks. But all successes are contacts.
Edited by Daeglan