9 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they don't. The difference between Shields and armor is huge. Armor is worn by a person, like a second skin . By contrast, a shield (whether a physical one strapped to your arm, or an energy shield), is a barrier between the attacker and the defender. That is the difference. For armor to deflect or absorb damage from an attack, the person wearing that armor must first be struck physically . That requires a successful combat check. With a shield, even a hand-held one, you have a large surface area, which expands well away from the body, like a wall . This means that an attacker might hit the shield, potentially even penetrate it, and still not even come close to hitting the defender behind it .

Oh my.

Still ready for that showdown at dawn, in a cold field, ribbons our spouses have tied around our arms, with matched weapons (rattan or otherwise), and all of the ghosts of our forefathers watching.

And with that image in my head, I'll be in my bunk.

3 hours ago, BrickSteelhead said:

Oh my.

Still ready for that showdown at dawn, in a cold field, ribbons our spouses have tied around our arms, with matched weapons (rattan or otherwise), and all of the ghosts of our forefathers watching.

And with that image in my head, I'll be in my bunk.

*Turns on Let the Gods Decide *

12 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

We do not actually know how Fett was raised.

We also do not know if he lived the way of the Mandalorians. Nor do we actually know what that means, exactly.

We do know that just being borne there isn't enough to be a real Mandanorian.

He doesnt even have Beskar. He has Durasteel in a time period where the Mandalorian had easy access to Beskar. Which makes me think Jango was a poser making claims. He seems more like a stolen valor type of guy. Not actually Mando.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

He doesnt even have Beskar. He has Durasteel in a time period where the Mandalorian had easy access to Beskar. Which makes me think Jango was a poser making claims. He seems more like a stolen valor type of guy. Not actually Mando.

It's also telling the 'poser' Mandos are the bad guys and the real (non-extremist) Mandos are heroes in their own show and on the 'good side', or eventually turn good. What side your on tells a lot about your character in Star Wars, which always been true, so yeah.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

It's also telling the 'poser' Mandos are the bad guys and the real (non-extremist) Mandos are heroes in their own show and on the 'good side', or eventually turn good. What side your own tells a lot about your character in Star Wars, which always been true, so yeah.

Though I do see the Death Watch as being Mandalorian. From an extremest faction sure. But Mandaorian none the less.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Though I do see the Death Watch as being Mandalorian. From an extremest faction sure. But Mandaorian none the less.

Yeah, but the extremist part is the difference. All the hero/good Mandos aren't like that, and are generally honorable, compassionate people.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, but the extremist part is the difference. All the hero/good Mandos aren't like that, and are generally honorable, compassionate people.

true

Thinking about it, it kinda makes sense...

The CIS was really at the top level just a bunch of capitalists who were mad that the government dared to tax them and make them responsible for their ****, which is why it was easy for Palpatine to manipulate them through Dooku, and Jango being a poser/stolen valor analog so he could cash in on the rep mirrors a lot of what happens in real life.

Anyway, yeah, the message is always there.

To the topic, though, I await the next 'no ur wrong' message from Tramp.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

Thinking about it, it kinda makes sense...

The CIS was really at the top level just a bunch of capitalists who were mad that the government dared to tax them and make them responsible for their ****, which is why it was easy for Palpatine to manipulate them through Dooku, and Jango being a poser/stolen valor analog so he could cash in on the rep mirrors a lot of what happens in real life.

Anyway, yeah, the message is always there.

To the topic, though, I await the next 'no ur wrong' message from Tramp.

I think that is an over simplistic assessment of the CIS. More like the CIS had legitimate gripes. Most of them stemming from massive taxes with no real benefit from those taxes. massive regulation that doesnt accomplish anything useful. This maade them easy to manipulate. But having lived in states where those in the capital pass a bunch of rules that dont accomplish the claimed goals and just make you life more difficult I understand where those in the CIS are coming from. The key thing is most business owners are find with reasonable regulations. the problem happens when the regulations and taxes get unreasonable. Which tends to happen when companies use government as a tool to attack competition.

I was being a simplistic largely on purpose, and I did say at the 'top level' - which was a bunch of bankers and corporations, and the PT was a message about unchecked capitalism/industrialism and government corruption in-kind, so not totally off-base. Sure, some planets and people may have had legit complaints - where the government corruption part comes in - but the people in charge of the CIS on the council... they were all rich people who didn't like taxes.

Anyway, not really the point of the thread. But, what is anymore?

20 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I’d just like to point out again that, in the narrative examples you’ve been provided, damage isn’t being done on the failed attack. It’s just dramatic fluff accounting for the failure coming, in part, from setback(s) imposed by some armor’s Defense rating.

As such, I’m not quite sure why you keep screaming ...sorry...”emphasizing” that damage can’t be done on a failed attack roll when no one is disputing that, or trying to impose damage from the failed roll...they’re just trying to paint a dramatic narrative picture of the events...including the setback(s) contributing to the failure.

And yet it’s been demonstrated for you several times. “Can’t?”

Except that this is not what a failed attack is though. That's what I'm getting at. The rules are explicit , a failed attack roll misses the target. It does not strike the target and get "Deflected". It misses . That is what the RAW says.To hit a target requires a Successful attack roll. Narratively, mechanically, it doesn't matter . A hit requires a successful attack. Therefore, any failed roll must be classified and narrated as a miss . It does not hit and bounce off. A hit that did no damage is one were it was a Successful attack roll, but had the extra damage from additional net Successes canceled out by failures, as well as the rest of the damage negated by Soak. That is hit that does no damage. That is covered explicitly by the rules.

What people are "narrating" are not failed attack rolls. What they're describing are the results of a successful attack that has had all of its damage negated, but "claiming" it could be the result of a failed roil. This is not the case. The only "Deflected" attacks that can be the result of a failed attack roll, would be those that were deflected by a Defensive or Deflecting weapon , (such as a hand-held shield), deflected by Cover , or deflected by an energy shield . Armor cannot deflect attacks , It can only deflect damage . That means that the person wearing the armor must be successfully hit .

20 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Narrative description, as opposed to game mechanics.

And now you’ve shifted to “some,” so I guess that’s progress?

A person doesn't need to meet all of those criteria to be a Mandalorian. That's my point. If a person chooses to adopt the Mandalorian creed as his own, and live as a Mandaloiran, guess what, he's a Mandalorian . If a person is adopted into the Mandalorian people and way of life, guess what, he's now a Mandaloirian . If a person is from any of the Mandalorian worlds, guess what, he's a Mandalorian .

Quote

But, you are, indeed ignoring something: that the people who get to make the determination as to whether or not Jango is Mandalorian say he isn’t.

What, exactly, is “open to interpretation?”
Rob Van Winkle claimed to have spent his youth on the mean streets of Miami, running with gangs. In reality, he is from a fairly affluent suburb of Dallas, where a former coworker of mine fired him from a pizza delivery job for flashing a customer. But, hey...if we follow your insistence that claims of personal history equal reality, I’m sure he’s glad that at least someone accepts the story he spun at the start of his career as the gospel truth.

That’s right...I just compared Jango to Vanilla Ice.

Who is also not Mandalorian.

As seen above, he has been explicitly stated to not be Mandalorian.

The writers at Lucasfilm have explicitly stated that Jango is not Mandalorian. No qualifiers applied. They’ve said he’s not Mandalorian. Full stop.

What defines being a Mandalorian is LFL saying, “This character is Mandalorian.” They have specifically stated the opposite regarding Jango.

Even ignoring that simple, elegant truth, we have no evidence of Jango meeting the fictional criteria that you give more credence than you do the words of the people who get to make the decision whether he is or not.

Which brings us right back to why I brought it up: a practical demonstration of your tendency to see your personal preferences as the sort of facts you claim to adhere to when actual established facts don’t conform to your preferences. You have gone through some intense mental gymnastics to try working around a pretty concrete position from LFL.

Jango is not a Mandalorian. Fact.

Attack rolls that fail, in part, due to setback(s) imposed by armor can be narratively described as having made wholly ineffective contact (despite your claim that such narration is impossible). Fact.

I'm not ignoring anything. The thing is that Pablo's statement still leaves things open given Jango's backstory . Pablo does not say Jango is not from Concord Dawn. And canonically , the only in universe claim against Jango's status is Almec.

19 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

We do not actually know how Fett was raised.

We also do not know if he lived the way of the Mandalorians. Nor do we actually know what that means, exactly.

We do know that just being borne there isn't enough to be a real Mandanorian.

Precisely. What we do have is official lore which established him as being from Concord Dawn and adopted into Mandalorian culture by Mandalrians. We have canon sources which say is is at least allegedly from Concord Dawn, with no proof to the contrary .

11 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

In my not huge experiance, armour is not like a second skin. It's like clothing, and not skintight clothing. It should in fact not be like skintight clothing, you should have layers underneath, to make sure that anything that goes through the first step gets slowed or even stopped before it gets to your body. They're also barriers between you and the outside, working much the same as the shield to block or deflect harm away from your squishy bits. The shield must also be struck to do its thing, same way that a parrying blade needs to be struck or a reflecting lightsaber.

It's not a blast weapon, which you would have known if you had checked the pages in question. It can be done with any weapon. It does something similar to blast, but it's not blast related to a weapon you're using. There are other ones in other books as well, I couldn't be arsed with finding them all yesterday. But then again I'm not the one claiming something cannot be done by RAW. The onus of proof is not really resting on me because I'm not using an absolut argument. The fact of the matter is that you can hurt an opponent even with a missed attack, a successful attack is needed to do damage to the target with the weapon you're using, but not necessary to do damage to the target. That can be done even with misses in the right circumstances, locations or with GM approval. Now that is a fact laid out in the Soldier sourcebook.

You're missing my point. As a rule, armor is form-fitting; It contours to the shape of the body.

6 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Thinking about it, it kinda makes sense...

The CIS was really at the top level just a bunch of capitalists who were mad that the government dared to tax them and make them responsible for their ****, which is why it was easy for Palpatine to manipulate them through Dooku, and Jango being a poser/stolen valor analog so he could cash in on the rep mirrors a lot of what happens in real life.

Anyway, yeah, the message is always there.

To the topic, though, I await the next 'no ur wrong' message from Tramp.

Jango was already the best Bounty Hunter in the galaxy. He had no reason to try to falsify his background in order to artificially boost his reputation on the backs of the Mandalorians. He already had a well earned reputation in his own right . Not only that, but Concord Dawn is an insignificant colony world . So, claiming to be from Concord Dawn wouldn't make any difference for his rep , unlike claiming to be from Mandalore itself.

He's a poser, sorry.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Precisely. What we do have is official lore which established him as being from Concord Dawn and adopted into Mandalorian culture by Mandalrians. We have canon sources which say is is at least allegedly from Concord Dawn, with no proof to the contrary .

We have official lore that says that he claims to be from Concorfd Dawn. We also have oficial lore that born on Mandalore isn't enough to qualify as a real Mandalorian wearer of the Boba Bucket.

We do not actually have lore that says Jango Fett ever even met a Mandanorian, much less was adopted into their culture.

Often, if a minion group rolls Threat while making an attack, I’ll just apply it as Strain. Since they cannot suffer Strain, this translates directly to Wounds, which I apply past Soak. I will narrate it as return fire, random ricochet, whatever. It is quick and simple, and minions are there to die. Threat = Wounds. Not game-breaking. Do others do this? Is it RAW? Just curious. I know this is a bit of a tangent, but... well, this thread...

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What people are "narrating" are not failed attack rolls. What they're describing are the results of a successful attack that has had all of its damage negated, but "claiming" it could be the result of a failed roil.

Well, if they’re using that narration for a failed attack roll that included setback(s) imposed by armor, then as someone once said

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A person doesn't need to meet all of those criteria to be a Mandalorian. That's my point.

And LFL’s point is that Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If a person chooses to adopt the Mandalorian creed as his own, and live as a Mandaloiran, guess what, he's a Mandalorian . If a person is adopted into the Mandalorian people and way of life, guess what, he's now a Mandaloirian . If a person is from any of the Mandalorian worlds, guess what, he's a Mandalorian .

And if, as with Vanilla Fett, they don’t appear to meet any of those criteria?

If LFL says Jango isn’t Mandalorian, guess what? He isn’t a Mandalorian.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I'm not ignoring anything. The thing is that Pablo's statement still leaves things open given Jango's backstory . Pablo does not say Jango is not from Concord Dawn. And canonically , the only in universe claim against Jango's status is Almec.

So you’re accepting the first half of Pablo’s post in which he clearly states that the Fetts aren’t Mandalorian?

Or you’re going to continue insisting that they absolutely must be, because of assumptions you’re making based upon your preference that Jango be Mandalorian?

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Precisely. What we do have is official lore which established him as being from Concord Dawn and adopted into Mandalorian culture by Mandalrians.

No, we don’t.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We have canon sources which say is is at least allegedly from Concord Dawn, with no proof to the contrary .

Not really.

But what we do have are multiple statements from those who get to decide such things that Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jango was already the best Bounty Hunter in the galaxy.

Was he? Was he really? Says who?

He sub-contracted an assassination job to Zam, who failed. (Twice.) When Zam was captured, he killed her while he was in plain view of the Jedi who’d pursued her, then left behind some pretty unique evidence that literally led Obi-Wan straight to his door.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He had no reason to try to falsify his background in order to artificially boost his reputation on the backs of the Mandalorians. He already had a well earned reputation in his own right .

Did he really? Or was that reputation built, in part, on his claim to be part of a fierce warrior tradition?

29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not only that, but Concord Dawn is an insignificant colony world . So, claiming to be from Concord Dawn wouldn't make any difference for his rep , unlike claiming to be from Mandalore itself.

But...you’re all about how he absolutely, positively must be Mandalorian because he’s from that same “insignificant colony world.” We’ve gone a few rounds about that part of things before, but sure...I suppose it makes more sense to claim to be a great warrior from (checks notes) a planet that was, at the time, following a philosophy of pacifism.

None of which changes the single most important thing about Jango’s status: that, according to LFL, he’s not Mandalorian.

(Aside: I notice that, once again, you spent more time and effort on the subject you said you were done with in this thread, bending over backwards to try to find ways around a clearly stated fact about a character’s status. It continues to reinforce the reason I brought it up in the first place. Check out the hook while Jango revolves it.)

14 minutes ago, Edgehawk said:

Often, if a minion group rolls Threat while making an attack, I’ll just apply it as Strain. Since they cannot suffer Strain, this translates directly to Wounds, which I apply past Soak. I will narrate it as return fire, random ricochet, whatever. It is quick and simple, and minions are there to die. Threat = Wounds. Not game-breaking. Do others do this? Is it RAW? Just curious. I know this is a bit of a tangent, but... well, this thread...

RAW on narration is pretty much just "if you can narrate it, narrate it" so on that front... *shrug*

I generally don't, but it makes sense. Might do it more often now that you've mentioned it.

19 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

He sub-contracted an assassination job to Zam, who failed. (Twice.) When Zam was captured, he killed her while he was in plain view of the Jedi who’d pursued her, then left behind some pretty unique evidence that literally led Obi-Wan straight to his door.

To be fair, the entire point of the whole operation seems to have been to lead a Jedi to Kamino so that the Jedi Council would take control of the clone army. Killing Padme doesn't seem to have been a primary objective. Only Nute Gunray wants her dead at this point.

On 2/22/2020 at 1:59 PM, bradknowles said:

This then leads into the question of what makes one a “native Texan”?

Do you have to be born here? Then I certainly wouldn’t qualify, nor would my wife.

Do your ancestors have to be a member of one of the thirteen founding families at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidio_San_Antonio_de_Béxar ? If so, then I still wouldn’t qualify, but my wife would.

My wife’s entire family is from San Antonio and the surrounding area, going back many, many generations. Through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Antonio_Navarro and beyond. But she was technically born in a different state in this country.

I also live in Texas. In fact, I have now lived in Austin, Texas longer than any other place in my life. Does that make me a “Texan”, even though I will never be a “native Texan”?

We may think that certain statements or questions are simple, but everything in all of human communication is built on top of other things. And when you start looking into the definitions of those other things, that’s when conversations can start falling apart.

On 2/22/2020 at 4:50 PM, Nytwyng said:

I've lived here longer than anywhere else, too. (almost 39 years). But I still wouldn't call myself a Texan. Texas resident, yes...Texan, no. The way I've understood it over those years, one has to be born here to be a "native" Texan.

I stand by my illustration in its context: if the folks who get to say "yay" or "nay" say "nay" about Jango being a Mandalorian, claims of "being from Concord Dawn" don't make him one, any more than I'm a Texan after 39 years.

Except, while that "may" be true of Texas, it's not true of Mandalorians. And I wouldn't even claim that as true of Texas, nor anywhere in the US, given that we are a country of immigrants to begin with. Would you deny a person who legally immigrated to the US and gained US citizenship his or her status as an American? That is the same thing with Mandalorians. There are many ways to be Mandalorian. That's my point . Din Djarin, the titular "Mandalorian" of the series, was not born a Mandalorian . He was not born on Mandalorie nor any of its specific colonies , that we know of. He's a Foundling . He was adopted into Mandalorian culture. Fenn Rau is from Concord Dawn, not from Mandalore . Does that make him any less Mandalorian? No . Both of these men are absolutely Mandalorian.

I'm not saying Jango Fett is, without a doubt Mandalorian by all standards . I'm saying that the canon lore itself establishes that, as far as anyone knows , Jango Fett is from a Mandalorian colony world, and was raised in , and lives by the Mandalorian way. And therefore, by that criteria has a potential legitimate claim to the status of a Mandalorian. That's what I'm talking about when I say it's dependent upon point of view. Whether or not Jango Fett and Boba Fett can be considered Mandalorian depends completely upon how a Mandalorian is defined within the universe itself, and by whose criteria you're following. Almec doesn't consider Jango Fett to be Mandalorian because he doesn't want to associate the Mandalorian people with a "lowly bounty hunter", and wants to distance the Mandalorian people from their warrior past. He has a political agenda which taints his statement.

It's the whole "No true Scotsman" argument.

He and Boba Fett were the quintessential Mandalorian Archetype upon which the Mandalorians were based when their culture was designed.

From GL's perspective, GL wanted the Mandalorian's to be an army, a uniform military force of Supercommandos, not a ragtag group of vagabond "Boba Fett knockoffs ". According to Dave Filoni, he wanted to keep Boba Fett unique and mysterious . Once again, however, that still only extends to him and Jango not being from Mandalore, or part of the Mandalorian army , which itself has never been the case anyway.

No, Jango and Boba Fett are not Mandalrian by blood . However, there is still a case to be made that they are Mandalorian by virtue of upbringing, adopting that culture as their own, or having been adopted into it , as well as, allegedly, hailing from a Mandalorian colony world.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

To be fair, the entire point of the whole operation seems to have been to lead a Jedi to Kamino so that the Jedi Council would take control of the clone army. Killing Padme doesn't seem to have been a primary objective. Only Nute Gunray wants her dead at this point.

A fair interpretation.

4 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

To be fair, the entire point of the whole operation seems to have been to lead a Jedi to Kamino so that the Jedi Council would take control of the clone army. Killing Padme doesn't seem to have been a primary objective. Only Nute Gunray wants her dead at this point.

And maybe Palpatine chose a subpar easily manipulated bounty hunter specifically because they would eventually screw up in a beneficial manner. No need to tell them the plan. just let them screw up and your desired outcome happens.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except, while that "may" be true of Texas, it's not true of Mandalorians. And I wouldn't even claim that as true of Texas, nor anywhere in the US, given that we are a country of immigrants to begin with. Would you deny a person who legally immigrated to the US and gained US citizenship his or her status as an American? That is the same thing with Mandalorians. There are many ways to be Mandalorian. That's my point . Din Djarin, the titular "Mandalorian" of the series, was not born a Mandalorian . He was not born on Mandalorie nor any of its specific colonies , that we know of. He's a Foundling . He was adopted into Mandalorian culture. Fenn Rau is from Concord Dawn, not from Mandalore . Does that make him any less Mandalorian? No . Both of these men are absolutely Mandalorian.

I'm not saying Jango Fett is, without a doubt Mandalorian by all standards . I'm saying that the canon lore itself establishes that, as far as anyone knows , Jango Fett is from a Mandalorian colony world, and was raised in , and lives by the Mandalorian way. And therefore, by that criteria has a potential legitimate claim to the status of a Mandalorian. That's what I'm talking about when I say it's dependent upon point of view. Whether or not Jango Fett and Boba Fett can be considered Mandalorian depends completely upon how a Mandalorian is defined within the universe itself, and by whose criteria you're following. Almec doesn't consider Jango Fett to be Mandalorian because he doesn't want to associate the Mandalorian people with a "lowly bounty hunter", and wants to distance the Mandalorian people from their warrior past. He has a political agenda which taints his statement.

It's the whole "No true Scotsman" argument.

He and Boba Fett were the quintessential Mandalorian Archetype upon which the Mandalorians were based when their culture was designed.

From GL's perspective, GL wanted the Mandalorian's to be an army, a uniform military force of Supercommandos, not a ragtag group of vagabond "Boba Fett knockoffs ". According to Dave Filoni, he wanted to keep Boba Fett unique and mysterious . Once again, however, that still only extends to him and Jango not being from Mandalore, or part of the Mandalorian army , which itself has never been the case anyway.

No, Jango and Boba Fett are not Mandalrian by blood . However, there is still a case to be made that they are Mandalorian by virtue of upbringing, adopting that culture as their own, or having been adopted into it , as well as, allegedly, hailing from a Mandalorian colony world.

There have been no “by blood” qualifiers in any of the statements made by those who actually get to decide such things.

They’ve said that Jango is not a Mandalorian. Period.

So, until and unless LFL says otherwise, Jango is not a Mandalorian. Period.

No amount of “emphasis” by a member of the audience who would prefer it otherwise changes that fact. But that person’s insistence that his preferences override the simple fact does undercut his statement that he abides by facts.

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

There have been no “by blood” qualifiers in any of the statements made by those who actually get to decide such things.

They’ve said that Jango is not a Mandalorian. Period.

So, until and unless LFL says otherwise, Jango is not a Mandalorian. Period.

No amount of “emphasis” by a member of the audience who would prefer it otherwise changes that fact. But that person’s insistence that his preferences override the simple fact does undercut his statement that he abides by facts.

it's like he only abides by facts he likes.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're missing my point. As a rule, armor is form-fitting; It contours to the shape of the body.

And you're missing mine as well. Armour is not a second skin, it has layers between the surface of it and your body. It is totally within the realm of possibility that a hit to the armour fails to gain any sort of purchase on the surface of it and the hit is harmlessly deflected away. To narrate that as a failed attack, not just one that was totally soaked, falls well within the realm of possibilities. The same way as you can narrate a shield taking a hit and deflecting that away from the body so that the attack doesn't gain enough purchase to cause injury. Because the body isn't the armour.

Anyway, you seem to have had nothing further to add about damage being possible on a failed attack using advantages and triumphs not related to Blast. Shall I take that as an admission of having been wrong?

36 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

We have official lore that says that he claims to be from Concorfd Dawn. We also have oficial lore that born on Mandalore isn't enough to qualify as a real Mandalorian wearer of the Boba Bucket.

We do not actually have lore that says Jango Fett ever even met a Mandanorian, much less was adopted into their culture.

Yes, we do have official lore , Whether or not it's current canon lore is another matter. Jango's original origins previously established before the Disney takeover, specifically established him as hailing from Concord Dawn, born to farmers, and orphaned when his parents were murdered by Death Watch who were hunting Jaster Mereel, leader of the True Mandalorians. Jaster Mereel adopted Jango as his son and raised him as a Mandalorian. That comes from officially published lore, albeit currently still Legends . The current canon alludes to that still possibly being the case. So, as far as we know , Jango Fett, is from Concord Dawn, and was adopted into the Mandalorian way.

26 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Well, if they’re using that narration for a failed attack roll that included setback(s) imposed by armor, then as someone once said

And LFL’s point is that Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

And if, as with Vanilla Fett, they don’t appear to meet any of those criteria?

If LFL says Jango isn’t Mandalorian, guess what? He isn’t a Mandalorian.

So you’re accepting the first half of Pablo’s post in which he clearly states that the Fetts aren’t Mandalorian?

Or you’re going to continue insisting that they absolutely must be, because of assumptions you’re making based upon your preference that Jango be Mandalorian?

No, we don’t.

Not really.

But what we do have are multiple statements from those who get to decide such things that Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

Was he? Was he really? Says who?

He sub-contracted an assassination job to Zam, who failed. (Twice.) When Zam was captured, he killed her while he was in plain view of the Jedi who’d pursued her, then left behind some pretty unique evidence that literally led Obi-Wan straight to his door.

Did he really? Or was that reputation built, in part, on his claim to be part of a fierce warrior tradition?

But...you’re all about how he absolutely, positively must be Mandalorian because he’s from that same “insignificant colony world.” We’ve gone a few rounds about that part of things before, but sure...I suppose it makes more sense to claim to be a great warrior from (checks notes) a planet that was, at the time, following a philosophy of pacifism.

None of which changes the single most important thing about Jango’s status: that, according to LFL, he’s not Mandalorian.

(Aside: I notice that, once again, you spent more time and effort on the subject you said you were done with in this thread, bending over backwards to try to find ways around a clearly stated fact about a character’s status. It continues to reinforce the reason I brought it up in the first place. Check out the hook while Jango revolves it.)

I never said that they "absolutely must be" Mandalorian. I said that whether or not they can be considered Mandalorian depends upon what criteria you use to determine someone's status as a Mandalorian. And I've said that right from the beginning. If you use the criteria that you must be of Mandalorian blood, born on Mandalore, then, no, they are not . Then again, by that criteria, neither is Din Djarin nor Fenn Rau, neither of whom are from Mandalore. But, if you define a Mandlorian as someone who follows the Mandalorian way, was adopted into Mandalorian culture, raised as one of them, or born on any of the Mandalorian worlds, then yes, a case can be made that they are Mandalorian. Like I said above, it's the whole "True Scotsman" argument, or a "true Texan", argument. It's an appeal to purity. It's subjective .

Without definitive canonical in universe proof that Jango Fett was absolutely not from Concord Dawn, was absolutely not raised in Mandalorian ways, was absolutely not adopted into their culture, nor adopted it on his own, then yes , Jango Fett, and, by extension, Boba Fett, can be considered Mandalorian, regardless of not being Mandalorian by blood. Pablo Hidalgo's statement does not say that Jango was absolutely not from Concord Dawn. He said that Jango claims to be from there, but, other than that, his background is a mystery. Whether or not Jango's claim is true has not been determined in the current canon . And, until it is, that still leaves room for interpretation whether you can consider him to be Mandalorian based upon that.

5 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

And you're missing mine as well. Armour is not a second skin, it has layers between the surface of it and your body. It is totally within the realm of possibility that a hit to the armour fails to gain any sort of purchase on the surface of it and the hit is harmlessly deflected away. To narrate that as a failed attack, not just one that was totally soaked, falls well within the realm of possibilities. The same way as you can narrate a shield taking a hit and deflecting that away from the body so that the attack doesn't gain enough purchase to cause injury. Because the body isn't the armour.

Anyway, you seem to have had nothing further to add about damage being possible on a failed attack using advantages and triumphs not related to Blast. Shall I take that as an admission of having been wrong?

I'm not missing your point. Having layers of surface doesn't change the fact that for armor to work, the person wearing it must be hit. Whether or not the blow has any "purchase" is irrelevant . The person was still hit . He (or she) was still struck. That is what's relevant. Armor does not prevent a blow from hitting , It only reduces or negates the damage from the hit. It cannot prevent a hit from making contact. As for your assessment of Page 211 of F&D, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. While the passage does say that the table itself (on page 212) is not an exhaustive list of the only options for spending Advantages and Triumphs, The rules do spell out that spending Advantages and Triumphs on Active weapon qualities , is restricted specifically to successful combat checks unless explicitly stated otherwise in that quality's description , as is the case with Blast and Guided . This is explicitly stated here (AoR page 168 and F&D page 161):

Quote

Active qualities require Two Advantages to activate unless otherwise stated in their description. Weapon qualities can only trigger on a successful attack, unless specified otherwise.

While the table for Spending Advantages and Triumphs in combat is not exhaustive, that does not mean you can spend them to damage a target without hitting them . Activating a weapon's Blast quality with three Advantages is the only way by RAW to inflict damage on a target on a missed attack. Guided simply allows the weapon itself to make a second attempt to hit the target on a missed attack, and continue to do so as long as the subsequent attempts roll enough Advantages or a Triumph to trigger the quality again. But to do that, the weapon in question must actually have that quality to begin with. You cannot activate a weapon quality that the weapon doesn't have, no matter how many Advantages or Triumphs you have. So, no, that rule does not contradict what I'm saying.

@Darth Revenant quoted from the Soldier book, which states otherwise... and contradicts what you're saying.