On 12/31/2019 at 11:44 PM, micheldebruyn said:

I'd just rule it as a thing that doesn't exist and isn't possible, no matter what you roll.

Nice parade you have there! Here have some rain!

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I was perusing Gadgets & Gear and noted that the hyperwave interceptor there allows you to track nearby ships in hyperspace and even estimate their trajectories and arrival times. One could presume the First Order TIE fighters have a similar device installed and used it to track the Falcon. As for hyperspace skipping itself I still feel that it "breaks the universe" in the sense that it renders hyperspace travel times and drive classes "inchoate." But, insofar as it is extremely dangerous, difficult, and can quite potentially break your ship or kill you... that's not as big a concern. After all, sane people don't do it.

31 minutes ago, Vondy said:

As for hyperspace skipping itself I still feel that it "breaks the universe" in the sense that it renders hyperspace travel times and drive classes "inchoate."

You mean the travel rules that WEG cooked up whole cloth on their own with no real input from LFL? The very same ones that the movies (even the original films) completely ignore in favor of "speed of plot"? The ones that the prequels, made by the settings very creator, completely disregarded and had people traveling from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of hours vs. WEG's old charts insisting said travel would take days? The rules that Han himself broke repeatedly in TFA, first with jumping to lightspeed from inside the hanger of a larger ship and then dropping out of hyperspace inside a planet's gravity well (something that per WEG's rules are both blatantly impossible)?

Drive classes themselves are only referenced once, by Han in the initial film, and even that may have just been boasting on his part, something that Obi-Wan even says may well not be true when telling Luke, "if the ship's as fast as he's boasting, we ought to do well." At no place else in the films are their mentions of hyperdrive ratings, which again was something WEG made up for the sake of the RPG.

Your game, so you can do what you want, but at least be aware that you're putting stock in stuff that ultimately began as fan-fiction and has long since been invalidated by films created when Lucas owned the license.

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

You mean the travel rules that WEG cooked up whole cloth on their own with no real input from LFL? The very same ones that the movies (even the original films) completely ignore in favor of "speed of plot"? The ones that the prequels, made by the settings very creator, completely disregarded and had people traveling from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of hours vs. WEG's old charts insisting said travel would take days? The rules that Han himself broke repeatedly in TFA, first with jumping to lightspeed from inside the hanger of a larger ship and then dropping out of hyperspace inside a planet's gravity well (something that per WEG's rules are both blatantly impossible)?

Drive classes themselves are only referenced once, by Han in the initial film, and even that may have just been boasting on his part, something that Obi-Wan even says may well not be true when telling Luke, "if the ship's as fast as he's boasting, we ought to do well." At no place else in the films are their mentions of hyperdrive ratings, which again was something WEG made up for the sake of the RPG.

Your game, so you can do what you want, but at least be aware that you're putting stock in stuff that ultimately began as fan-fiction and has long since been invalidated by films created when Lucas owned the license.

Those rules were also repeatedly broken in the Clone Wars Cartoon. **** even the supposed Holdo Maneuver was used by Anakin to destroy Grievous's ship by making it fly into a moon. I think it is pretty clear the rules aren't rules so much as guidelines for safe hyperspace travel. And much like the rules of the road in real life you can break the rules at your own risk.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

You mean the travel rules that WEG cooked up whole cloth on their own with no real input from LFL? The very same ones that the movies (even the original films) completely ignore in favor of "speed of plot"? The ones that the prequels, made by the settings very creator, completely disregarded and had people traveling from one end of the galaxy to the other in a matter of hours vs. WEG's old charts insisting said travel would take days? The rules that Han himself broke repeatedly in TFA, first with jumping to lightspeed from inside the hanger of a larger ship and then dropping out of hyperspace inside a planet's gravity well (something that per WEG's rules are both blatantly impossible)?

Drive classes themselves are only referenced once, by Han in the initial film, and even that may have just been boasting on his part, something that Obi-Wan even says may well not be true when telling Luke, "if the ship's as fast as he's boasting, we ought to do well." At no place else in the films are their mentions of hyperdrive ratings, which again was something WEG made up for the sake of the RPG.

Your game, so you can do what you want, but at least be aware that you're putting stock in stuff that ultimately began as fan-fiction and has long since been invalidated by films created when Lucas owned the license.

Let me know when you've worked the condescension out of your system and want to have a conversation about what makes for good games.

What works on the big screen and what works at the gaming table are not always one and the same.

A lot of what we see on screen does not make for a very coherent universe and is frequently self-contradictory.

Han's braggadocio about his record on the Kessel Run strongly implies that there is a quantifiable time-factor involved with hyperspace travel.

If all drives were created equal and hyperspace routes didn't matter he would have nothing to brag about. Speed is a factor of distance over time .

If hyperspace travel is just jump-drive style instantaneous matter transport, why even ask him if the Falcon is a fast ship?

Why reference drive classes at all if they are all equally fast?

Worse: between the screen swipes and a poverty of onscreen maps and chronometers we don't have a consistent measure for time versus distance.

The maps that we do get are ex post facto hand-waves trying to make order out of total choas... because that's what our brains are wired to do.

If I can jump across the universe in an instant then everything is, for all practical intents and purposes, equidistant.

Thus, on a larger world-building scale, why is the Outer Rim considered lawless and remote and distant from the core worlds?

Why did it take so long to explore and colonize it and why is it so far outside the circles of galactic commerce and culture?

If I can go from Conscant to Tattooine as fast as I can to Alderaan why is Tattooine a total backwater? In terms of time-factor its right next door.

If one strictly applies on-screen hyperspace minimalism then Star Wars has no flyover planets and sectors and regions of space are superfluous.

The "speed of plot" becomes as irony's straight man because it introduces a swarm of plot-holes and conceptual contradictions for us to solve.

How do we, as people sitting down to run games, make sense out of the giant beautiful mess we are basing them on?

The desire for maps, rational travel times, meaningful scale, economic verisimilitude , and even a basis for making strategic decisions is 100% valid.

Games are not movies. The very details screenwriters and directors handwave often prove to be the very details we work with.

We need some sort of consistent benchmark and guidlines to base our stories on, be they WEG's clunky old tables or not.

3 hours ago, Vondy said:

Let me know when you've worked the condescension out of your system and want to have a conversation about what makes for good games.

Says the person who has routinely been sniping at others for wanting to include things seen in the actual media into their own games, having those games reflect what is seen on the screen as opposed to being bound to an arbitrary and increasingly archaic system that was devised out of thin air over 30 years ago.

You don't want to include the various changes to hyperspace travel times introduced in material created after WEG first published those ultimately arbitrary numbers? That's perfectly fine. Nobody here has said that you have to allow hyperspace skipping or travel times that are measured in hours as opposed to days in your game if it makes you that uncomfortable.

5 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Says the person who has routinely been sniping at others for wanting to include things seen in the actual media into their own games, having those games reflect what is seen on the screen as opposed to being bound to an arbitrary and increasingly archaic system that was devised out of thin air over 30 years ago.

You don't want to include the various changes to hyperspace travel times introduced in material created after WEG first published those ultimately arbitrary numbers? That's perfectly fine. Nobody here has said that you have to allow hyperspace skipping or travel times that are measured in hours as opposed to days in your game if it makes you that uncomfortable.

Started a new thread. Because maybe we should discuss that aspect.

What about the time taken to travel. Without immediately access to books, it takes hours, days or weeks to travel in hyper space. So you wouldn't get the starting scene without a long wait between jumps. Hyperspace isn't telelortation.

19 minutes ago, mwknowles said:

What about the time taken to travel. Without immediately access to books, it takes hours, days or weeks to travel in hyper space. So you wouldn't get the starting scene without a long wait between jumps. Hyperspace isn't telelortation.

Hyperspace travel time on screen has always been shorter than in any iteration of the RPG. (As the story goes, it all stems from the WEG charts accidentally swapping in “days” for “hours.”) But, if it helps, you can consider the strain put on the hyperdrive by performing this maneuver to be part of the inherent danger that can result in fire...everywhere...the whole thing.