Imagine a timeline where Force could not recharge on its own during a game.

• Start with X number of force charges and thats all you have.
• If 100% non-rechargeable seems to restrictive, then imagine it required a Reload + Weapons Disabled Action equivalent to recharge
• Would it have a dramatic impact on how you play Force Ships? Take Actions? Re-position? Approach combat, etc.?
• How much of an effect would real resource constraints have on the cost of pilots/upgrades that use force?
• Could it make interesting characters more playable in a wider variety of lists over the long term?
• Would it make the handful of "Force Sensitive" ships like Boba, Soontir, Guri, and Fang Fighters stand out that much more?
• We generally accept fixed resource management for other charges, particularly ordinance as normal.
• Is it possible to implement these changes without card errata?
• Would these restrictions make using the Force seem more impactful/special?

I think I would have liked it better if force was the way it is now, but non-recovering. Though... generally that makes force ships more alpha-strikey. Even if it were to be limited to use only 1 force charge per dice roll, based on how the game works - it would be like having a free calculate - you would see it come to maturity as alpha strike. That isn't interesting either.

Actually... now that I think about it... I think that concept is less interesting than the current usage, which, while decidedly OP and annoying, does make force ships more interesting as a double mod/double action type of ship.

Still probably the best would be to make better innate force-using pilot abilities and more force talents that are strongly usable.

only recover force on a focus action 👏

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Imagine a timeline where Force could not recharge on its own during a game.

• Start with X number of force charges and thats all you have.
• If 100% non-rechargeable seems to restrictive, then imagine it required a Reload + Weapons Disabled Action equivalent to recharge
• Would it have a dramatic impact on how you play Force Ships? (1)
• How much of an effect would real resource constraints have on the cost of pilots/upgrades that use force? (2)
• Could it make interesting characters more playable in a wider variety of lists over the long term? (3)
• Would it make the handful of "Force Sensitive" ships like Boba, Soontir, Guri, and Fang Fighters stand out that much more? (4)
• We generally accept fixed resource management for other charges, particularly ordinance as normal. (5)
• Is it possible to implement these changes without card errata? (6)

1) of course. We hardly ever see Force Talents as it is, so this will likely be the final nail in the coffin for all but maybe two of them. Since you basically now have a small number of Calculates to use over the course of the game and jump hoops to get back, I’d say the majority of Force capable pilots and crew will be overpriced.

2) As I touched on in the first point, pretty much everything would need to go down. Even Jedi. Force Talents would be mostly garbage. The only thing I could see possibly going up/staying the same is Hate and Maul, for their Force regen capabilities, though the need for damage to work might still see them come down, just not as much.

edit: Nearly forgot about the farm boy who started it all. Luke’s ability basically circumvents this suggestion entirely. He stays the same or goes up.

3) If Force Users are correctly repriced, probably. If they are not, then we simply have a case of replacement than additions. The faces change, but the dance remains the same.

4) It could possibly make pilots and chassis with built-in extra modifiers more attractive, but considering they weren’t the only game in town before the Prequel Factions came along, I do not think it will be unduly.

5) But the Force has little in common with Ordnance. The upgrade that makes more sense to compare it to (and possibly emulate) is Lone Wolf or Elusive. In the case of Lone Wolf, it recharges each and every turn. Where the limitation comes from is when it can be spent. Elusive does require something special (doing a red maneuver) to recharge, but can be used when ever. There are other examples of these two types of charge uses and I believe looking to them is a better course of action. While gameplay>fluff, I think treating the Force as you would a missile is a mistake. The Force is a mystical element, not a limited supply of high-yield warheads. It should have a more organic feel, rather than a static resource.

6) Possibly, but that would require altering the base definition of the “Recurring” symbol. Then you have to decide if all Recurring symbols regen the same way (do things like Tallie, Epic ships, Lone Wolf, and so on have to do the exact same thing in order to “recover”) or if each individual token type gets its own “Recurring” definition. Both present their own problems, and it could be debatable if the result is actually better than the major headache of errata

NOW YOU UNDERSTAND THE THE TRUE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!!

WHAT THE???

*low power light flashing*

A while back, I had the idea of splitting the Force based on Light Side and Dark Side. By default, Light Side users wouldn't be able to spend Force Points to modify red dice, and Dark Siders wouldn't be able to modify green dice. Force upgrades could override this, so Brilliant Evasion would actually be desirable for a Dark Side users.

It was pointed out that the ability to stack offensive mods was generally more powerful than being able to spend them on defense, but that could be adjusted through pricing. Plus, those Dark Siders would be much more vulnerable to getting focused down than a Jedi would be.

I mean, it's 1e Glitterstim without stress, kinda. The force would be a nice perk, but not all that important.

• The Aethersprite would need a redesign. How about something like "After you execute a maneuver, you may perform a Barrel Roll or Boost action. If you do, after your activation, spend 1 force or gain 1 stress." It becomes a little bit more flexible than a TIE Interceptor or such, but pretty similar.
  • Alternative idea: One core use of the force could be to remove stress. Aethersprite just gains "Autothrusters" to link a red boost or barrel roll, but since Jedi all have the Force, they could go stress-free sometimes. In a scheme where Force doesn't come back, having more tricks you could do with it would be neat.
• Luke with current text is bonkers. I don't necessarily mind Luke being the most bonkers pilot out there, since the T-65 isn't super mobile, and he's only Init 5 and can easily get out-aced.
• Hate becomes almost exclusively the only Dark Side talent (some Sense), so Light Side would need some sort of equivalent. Maybe "Action: Gain 1 stress to recover 1 force." Maybe it also has 2 non-recurring charges and you'll spend 1 to do the action. Maybe it has three recurring charges and you'll spend all three to do the action. But I like the idea of the Dark Side gaining force charges from taking damage, but the Light Side having to use actions to regain force. It becomes an inefficient action, but one which is stored over the turns, and one which can power several flexible things.
• Most force crew/gunners like Kanan Jarrus become beyond-belief useless. Maybe more folks would wind up looking like crew-Leia, but that doesn't necessarily make me feel better.

Overall, I don't think it works for 2e. I don't hate it for 3e.

I think a simple limit of only one spent per roll would curb the essential double modded attacks. And also help on the “can’t touch this” feel of the 3 force Jedi.

I also really like the light side/dark side idea above but I’d errata brilliant evasion as a light side only upgrade.

I could easily get behind a 1 force per roll only rule.

I'd also like to see all of those stupid "after you fully execute a maneuver" add "and you did not overlap an obstacle or another ship"

All of them. Including Lando, Jedi, Defenders, etc. ESPECIALLY THOSE DUMB LARGE BASES TOO.

(I assume that's the wording for also if your template moves through an obstacle??)

11 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I could easily get behind a 1 force per roll only rule.

I'd also like to see all of those stupid "after you fully execute a maneuver" add "and you did not overlap an obstacle or another ship"

All of them. Including Lando, Jedi, Defenders, etc. ESPECIALLY THOSE DUMB LARGE BASES TOO.

(I assume that's the wording for also if your template moves through an obstacle??)

No, overlap refers only to the ship's base being on an object when placing at the end of the maneuver. The rules language for what you're looking for would be "if you fully execute a maneuver and did not move through or overlap an obstacle". I'm not convinced it's necessary though; fine-tuned working past a cloud or asteroid is a lot less important than the fact that it allows double-reposition in either order, stress-free, when not colliding.

18 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

No, overlap refers only to the ship's base being on an object when placing at the end of the maneuver. The rules language for what you're looking for would be "if you fully execute a maneuver and did not move through or overlap an obstacle". I'm not convinced it's necessary though; fine-tuned working past a cloud or asteroid is a lot less important than the fact that it allows double-reposition in either order, stress-free, when not colliding.

"did not move through or overlap an obstacle nor overlap a ship"

or

"if you were not blocked and you did not move through nor overlap an obstacle"

ugh.

Wordy verbose and annoying

To be honest, I don't know what changes would make sense that don't immediately make force irrelevant, and would need a points reduction on a lot of things. How useful are elusive, cards with a calculate, other nearly single use cards? All have to be cheaper, not the around 9 points per force charge that we can guess at the moment. And I really doubt that a massive points reduction on force users is going to be well taken. The alternative of doing one after the other means that force users will be effectively removed from play (or completely OP) for half a year. That could be ok for most factions where it doesn't matter. But trainingwheels-Jedi/Vader would notice. A lot.

3 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

A while back, I had the idea of splitting the Force based on Light Side and Dark Side. By default, Light Side users wouldn't be able to spend Force Points to modify red dice, and Dark Siders wouldn't be able to modify green dice. Force upgrades could override this, so Brilliant Evasion would actually be desirable for a Dark Side users.

It was pointed out that the ability to stack offensive mods was generally more powerful than being able to spend them on defense, but that could be adjusted through pricing. Plus, those Dark Siders would be much more vulnerable to getting focused down than a Jedi would be.

Would have to make Brillian Evasion a light side power, or dark siders would just have everything, while light siders get nerfed hard.

4 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Would have to make Brillian Evasion a light side power, or dark siders would just have everything, while light siders get nerfed hard.

Not really. Making it Light Side only just ensures it continues to never be used by anyone. Make it 1-2 points for Light Side pilots, but 8 points for Dark Siders. Plus, it means they're not using their Force slot for Hate.

You also presume that the devs would never add Light Side powers to help with offense.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

"did not move through or overlap an obstacle nor overlap a ship"

or

"if you were not blocked and you did not move through nor overlap an obstacle"

ugh.

Wordy verbose and annoying

You don't need anything about being blocked or overlapping a ship, that's what the 'fully execute' stipulation refers to already. If you bumped a ship you only partially executed.

Could be as simple as each ship can only spend 1 force per phase.

Edit:

Or more refined. Each force user can only spend one force per phase.

Which allows for additional action economy with force crew cards.

regenerating force is crazy good. yes it takes time to replenish to full but when u start with 3 force using standard hit and run tactics is effective and you should not be too worried about being caught at zero force/one force at the start of ur turn if u are playing optimally.

force users are popular and for good reason, they are powerful and imp somewhat overshadow other pilots because they are so prominent.

id be ok with force sensitive pilots in every faction. lots of examples in SW extended universe/sw cannon of force users crossing into other factions right?

3 hours ago, Greedo_Sharpshooter said:

regenerating force is crazy good. yes it takes time to replenish to full but when u start with 3 force using standard hit and run tactics is effective and you should not be too worried about being caught at zero force/one force at the start of ur turn if u are playing optimally.

force users are popular and for good reason, they are powerful and imp somewhat overshadow other pilots because they are so prominent.

id be ok with force sensitive pilots in every faction. lots of examples in SW extended universe/sw cannon of force users crossing into other factions right?

Every faction already has at least one Force pilot though.

Republic: Lots of Jedi.

Separatist: Dooku, Maul.

Empire: Vader, various inquisitors.

Rebel: Luke, Kanan.

Scum: Asajj.

First Order: Kylo.

Resistance: Rey.

4 hours ago, Dasharr said:

Every faction already has at least one Force pilot though.

Republic: Lots of Jedi.

Separatist: Dooku, Maul.

Empire: Vader, various inquisitors.

Rebel: Luke, Kanan.

Scum: Asajj.

First Order: Kylo.

Resistance: Rey.

all force users are not created equal. Asajj for example is only large base ship. do seperatists have ne Fu's other than Dooku. if not then id argue they should have more esp in small ship base.

The republic have the most and arguably the most cost effective force users which when u think about it gives them a sizeable advantage with options that abuse force. Empire is a close second. even generic inquisitors have force right? this gives these two factions many more options compared to the other factions.

3 minutes ago, Greedo_Sharpshooter said:

do seperatists have ne Fu's other than Dooku.

Same ship:

Id dearly love to see Assaj in a starviper or even a mining guild tie or pretty much any small base scum ship. Would give scum a powerful option to run alongside all manner of pilots.

I'd love to see Mara Jade as a Force-wielding Scum pilot. Maybe it won't happen, but I can dream.

I suspect that there may be Disney-canon licence issues preventing old-canon force users being added to X-Wing. Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn are force-users who became Jedi in the EU (now Legends) stories that they came from, but the only force-using pilots in X-Wing are from Disney-era-canon.

22 hours ago, svelok said:

only recover force on a focus action 👏

Hate, CLT Jedi, Rey, Optics Kylo, and Supernat Inky's approve.

3 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I'd love to see Mara Jade as a Force-wielding Scum pilot. Maybe it won't happen, but I can dream.

The Hand of the Emperor is not an outlaw. She is a duly appointed agent of Peace and Order in the galaxy. 🧐