Spinning this out of another thread to NOT derail that one, but an idea was proposed by PhantomOF to grant large base ships 2 actions per activation to help bolster their action economy.

There would definitely need to be some stipulations... one being that at least one action MUST be from the action bar on the pilot card, which could be modified by a crew of course like from perceptive copilot.

This would curb any crazy regen shenanigans, negating critical damage, or possible broken crew combos.

Standard stress and ion rules would apply, though the ion effects should limit large ships to a single action.

As a flat rule, this may make several large ships unpredictably problematic. That said, maybe instead of a RULE, make it a limited modification upgrade for large base ships only. This way, it can't be abused, it can be priced out of use for specific ships/pilots, and all the information is there in front of the player.

Even the ships that might be too good under this situation (Lando, Han, Chiraneau) could just be priced up to reflect their value.

Shuttles might also need a price bump, as the combo of Coordinate and still getting an action for themselves would be really strong.

True, but I wouldn't want to see certain ships which function fine now get costed into oblivion and never used again.

Making it a one or two dot limited upgrade prevents that. Something like Rebel Falcon Lando would be too action efficient by being able to focus, lock, and rotate its arc.

I don't think it's necessary to add this sort of thing to large ships - huge ships getting 2 actions is a large part of their 'thing'.

But if FFG wanted to, they could make a co-pilot crew card which adds a linked action: Focus for stress. Prerequisite: Reinforce.

10 to 12 points?

Most of the ships that want a 2nd action to be more viable have reinforce available, but suffer from then lacking dice mods. YV666, decimators, Lambdas, VCX100s.

This prevents Falcons from abusing it unless you also pay for that modification no-one uses which costs you a shield.

1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

I don't think it's necessary to add this sort of thing to large ships - huge ships getting 2 actions is a large part of their 'thing'.

But if FFG wanted to, they could make a co-pilot crew card which adds a linked action: Focus for stress. Prerequisite: Reinforce.

10 to 12 points?

Most of the ships that want a 2nd action to be more viable have reinforce available, but suffer from then lacking dice mods. YV666, decimators, Lambdas, VCX100s.

This prevents Falcons from abusing it unless you also pay for that modification no-one uses which costs you a shield.

That modification no one uses is unused in part because it can't go on large base ships in the first place

I'm put off by the idea. Seems like the balance issues would get out-of-hand fast, and even extra actions isn't always going to be enough. Many large ships can die deceptively fast for their cost. Maybe Reinforce covers it, but stuff like Resistance YT-1300s will still be wicked squishy at their price. Raising the price of still-strong ships like Han and RAC probably keeps them unplayable.

I've been playing some generic VT-49 Patrol Leaders. Slap on Seventh Sister crew or Fifth Brother Gunner, and for 77 points, you've got a 2nd action each turn. "Only" a calculate, but it can still be solid. I'd say they're *almost* worth it. If they could get a full Focus token, or Reinforce/Rotate, that'd be really strong. If they got two actions at something close to their naked cost of 68? Oh **** they'd be strong. Two of these things with Duchess is an "almost" list. If you could swap out Duchess for a better ace, or run some bid, I think it could have real legs.

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I'm more into the thought of how Epic adds action economy through linked Calculate actions on Teams. Not as powerful as double-actions, and not as flexible. Most small-base ships with action economy (other than The Force *eyeroll*) only ever get extra *movement* actions, and usually at the cost of stress (reducing next turns movement options). Limiting a large ship to a bonus calculate token, and only with a limited subset of actions (to be sure Reinforce or Rotate, maybe Jam or Coordinate), seems potentially reasonable. Maybe it's cheap mod slot upgrades that allow you to refine the direction you want your ship to go in. Or at least it'd be cheap to take *one* of these upgrades, so that you can be more flexible at increased cost.

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There's another thing I've had in my head for a while: when I first heard of Variable Points Costs, I anticipated something like "TIE Punishers pay less for ordnance." This allows Punishers to have a higher base cost (so they never get used as efficiency ships), but allows them to kit themselves out with upgrades.

Large Base ships actually tend to have some solid options for action economy crew/gunners, typically a lot stronger than Action Economy Talents or Astromechs. However, this raises the final price of Large Base ships too high. But cutting large-base ship prices makes low-upgrade ships too cheap.

One Possible Solution: reduce the cost of certain kinds of upgrades based on ship type.

• Proposal: Most ships get a keyword or two.
  • Each keyword would have a number, and a style of upgrades associated with it.
  • "Keyword 2" would reduce upgrades of the type by 2 points.
  • Some ships would probably go up in base price a little, but not all. A lot of ships could use a boost, and getting cost-reduction keywords adds more options for them, without really breaking the cost structure.
• Example keywords, with very non-exhaustive ship examples:
  • Advanced: Reduces Sensors, Tech
    • E-Wing, TIE/x1, Quadjumper
  • Custom: Reduces Illicit, Modification
    • Kihraxz, Kimogila, maybe U-Wing
  • Droid Interface: Reduces Astromech, Tactical Relay
    • X-Wings to be sure (jack the cost of R2 Astromechs for Jedi, but they'll still be affordable on X-Wings), but maybe less-popular TacRelay carriers like the Sith Infiltrator
  • Elite: Reduces Talent, Force Talent
    • TIE Interceptors, TIE/sf (so they don't get to double-dip Sensor/Tech)
  • Multiweapon (OK, this needs a better name): Reduces Cannon, Turret
    • Y-Wing and TIE Aggressor, but not Scurrg or Ghost, so that these ships which *really* need a turret to be viable can essentially have the turret cost baked in.
    • Making Cannons cheaper on B-Wings, combined with a jacked base price and the upcoming S-Foils would really make the ship fulfill a different role from an X-Wing
  • Munitions: Reduces Missile, Payload, Torpedo
    • K-Wings, TIE Punisher, TIE Bomber, but maybe also stuff like Z-95 or Torrents or Strikers, which seldom use these slots
  • Spacious: Reduces Crew, Gunners
    • Most large base ships, but maybe not all. Maybe the MG-100 Starfortress has Advanced and Munitions, to make bomb strategies more appealing, and to help keep VTG costs relatively high

Honestly, just balance it in points. They don’t need extra actions.

The lambda is pretty good now. The falcon is on the cusp of greatness.

Has anyone flown 3 patrol leaders (or similar 3 large not normally allowed) in a 200pt game (204 in this case). I feel like the best three ace lists would still beat it.

47 minutes ago, BenDay said:

Has anyone flown 3 patrol leaders (or similar 3 large not normally allowed) in a 200pt game (204 in this case). I feel like the best three ace lists would still beat it.

I've run 2 patrol leaders and a Krennec/Tarken Sai shuttle (which is under 200), and everyone is intimidated by the, you know, 43 HP on the table. (sai has a hull upgrade) Aces can still outmaneuver it (ST-123>tarken is downright arthritic), but it's had some success against a jedi knight swarm that couldnt arcdodge with everything.

IMO what large bases need is more crew like Minister Tua.

Yeah, free red actions are good. but old Tua is good on RAC, and okay on other large ships.

So I have a dumb question- how valuable is a Init 7 free white turret rotate or calculate?

27 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

So I have a dumb question- how valuable is a Init 7 free white turret rotate or calculate?

Not 26 points, that’s for sure. IMO Luke’s value is only as a crutch upgrade for new players who are still learning how to fly and outguess their opponents. Experienced players rarely need to rotate their arcs because they know how to plan ahead and keep them on target while using their actions for other things. But everyone pitched a fit about Luke before 2nd edition even came out and so FFG priced him out of the game.

Look at it this way- compare Luke with any of the other crew/gunner force upgrades. Do you think he’s better than say, Darth Vader crew? Emperor Palpatine? Ahsoka Gunner? Rey gunner? Maybe a little better, but twice as good as any of them? Definitely not.

5 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Not 26 points, that’s for sure. IMO Luke’s value is only as a crutch upgrade for new players who are still learning how to fly and outguess their opponents. Experienced players rarely need to rotate their arcs because they know how to plan ahead and keep them on target while using their actions for other things. But everyone pitched a fit about Luke before 2nd edition even came out and so FFG priced him out of the game.

Look at it this way- compare Luke with any of the other crew/gunner force upgrades. Do you think he’s better than say, Darth Vader crew? Emperor Palpatine? Ahsoka Gunner? Rey gunner? Maybe a little better, but twice as good as any of them? Definitely not.

not 26, definately. But now... with init 5 and 6 double repositioning ships all over the meta, with large bases needing action economy... How much IS he worth to a low init large base turret?

5 hours ago, Gilarius said:

I don't think it's necessary to add this sort of thing to large ships - huge ships getting 2 actions is a large part of their 'thing'.

But if FFG wanted to, they could make a co-pilot crew card which adds a linked action: Focus for stress. Prerequisite: Reinforce.

10 to 12 points?

Most of the ships that want a 2nd action to be more viable have reinforce available, but suffer from then lacking dice mods. YV666, decimators, Lambdas, VCX100s.

This prevents Falcons from abusing it unless you also pay for that modification no-one uses which costs you a shield.

Something like this is probably the better solution. Not sure about 10-12 points tacked on to an already expensive ship though, IMO part of the reason we don't see large ships is because their upgrades that make them useful also cost them out of their HP / Damage potential.

Lowering base cost too much just increases chances more naked ships in the better solution. Wouldn't we prefer large ships especially actually get good use out of crew/upgrades? I would, and in that case, we need to have a lower cost on their tools.

20 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

not 26, definately. But now... with init 5 and 6 double repositioning ships all over the meta, with large bases needing action economy... How much IS he worth to a low init large base turret?

Not an 8th of your list. I’d drop him by 10 points. Make him 16 points and see how it goes for 6 months, and then see if his points need to be tweaked a little

There really ought to be a different Luke Gunner. He's high right now since he entirely trivializes initiative, which is stupid. Having the timing for Luke to be almost literally anything else (start of activation, fully executing a maneuver, system phase, end phase) would justify a much lower price. Give him the old Supernatural/Precognative Reflexes treatment.

Also, there ought to be Luke *crew* with a picture of RotJ Luke in black, like at Jabba's Palace.

How about no?

Large ships should stop being:

take-damage-but-efficiency-remains-100%-until-dead

super action and damage efficient to the point of invalidating lots of attacks

hyper-mobile/evasive (thank goodness FFG got this one)

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I'd almost rather see them get VTG or something default WHILE the ship is above 1/2 hp. After 1/2 hp has been lost, no more VTG. Two attacks on two different targets from two different arcs.

Force them to push into the fray. Then you can reward them with some reasonable tankiness too.

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Other large bases could be lower in cost (more like 1.5 a small base's value), but be nimble and smaller footprint.

Atm the issue I think is that there isn't a whole lot of interest in flying large bases cuz they're not super duper unique.

2.0 released on a number of vital corrections, two of which were: removing Veteran Instincts and Push The Limit from the game. Linked actions were developed to very carefully control the double action economy in the game.

I do like the idea of giving large base ships MORE rather than lowering points. I love 100-120 point mammoths. However, giving them extra actions would have to be very monitored. Such as “after performing an action, you may perform X”. For me, I’d choose X to be Rotate. The wonderful thing in 1.0 for large base turrets was time on target. While 360 degree coverage was too powerful, I feel they’re too limited now.

Another idea in the original thread I liked (forget who said it) was adding a text to all gunner cards, that require turret arc, that said something to the effect you may perform a red rotate action in the end phase.

4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Honestly, just balance it in points. They don’t need extra actions.

The lambda is pretty good now. The falcon is on the cusp of greatness.

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done without adding a "Limited" keyword. The Jumpmaster probably deserves to be less 40 points for its attack, action bar and dial. However, pricing it at that level would allow you to field five of them, with a ridiculous 45 health behind 2 agility. Their offense would bite, but the amount of work needed for every 20 points destroyed would be excessive. For the same reason, you'll never see a VCX or Decimator below 67 points, or a Resistance Bomber below 51 points.

9 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done without adding a "Limited" keyword.

The prequel factions have the multi dot system where you get X copies of that based on number of dots. Same idea could be errata’d to the generics you’re worried about spamming problems with.

I feel like just flat-out adding two actions to every large ship at this point wouldn't work that well because ships, pilots and upgrades haven't been designed around it. If you have to start adding "stipulations" it just gets convoluted.

More large-ship-only oriented upgrades isn't a bad idea, especially since there are currently many more upgrades that are limited to non-large ships. More double-slot upgrades (and giving large ships more slots to handle them) could be another way to give them some toys that can also go on selected small ships (e.g. double cannon on the B-Wing).

As with many others who've commented, I'm against providing a double action across the board for any ship, not just large ships. Having a Large-only Modification that perhaps provides a Focus -> Reinforce (red) linked action might work a lot better though. It would be a mod that gives the Large ships two actions that they like to have, while also limiting it with the red action. Price it somewhere around the 7-9 point range and I think it could be pretty decent.

Actions would help a bit, you could solve that with crew that adds an action.

I think stacking damage too quickly is the issue. I’d like a crew/mod that gives a free Reinforce action at start of combat while you have shields. Make big ship shields tougher than small ship shields.

I'd be fine just giving them a discount on hull upgrade and allowing them to take multiple mods.

I mean, +1 hull on a small 3-hull ship is a huge difference, proportionally, and would require a harder shell and maybe mobility upgrades so it doesn't suffer from the problem extra mass. +1 on a large 9-hull ship, otoh, would only mean a slightly thicker plating.

Seeing as survivability appears to be a problem for large bases, giving them the potential for an extra turn on the table should help the situation a little.

4 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Actions would help a bit, you could solve that with crew that adds an action.

I think this a pragmatic solution. Most factions haven't received new crew since their 2.0 inception. Pilots like major stridan are really hindered by this (Hux or bust). The other benefit is the crew can now be limited to two or three.