Say I'm running a defensive character. A decently high Force Rating, Willpower, Discipline, and a few ranks in Parry/Reflect. I've invested in Protect/Unleash all the way down the right side of the tree to get Mastery (and probably a couple Strength Upgrades, as well). I perform the Protect action, reducing incoming Blaster/Force/Lightsaber damage by a pretty good chunk. Let's say 6 in my example. I also have 2 pips that I spend on the Mastery upgrade.

Then on an opponent's turn, they hit me with a blaster shot, dealing 10 damage. Would I be able to Reflect, say, 4 of that damage to reduce the damage to 6, then use Protect's Mastery to redirect that last 6 damage back at the target who attacked me? Or would Protect's damage reduction happen first, reducing the damage to 4 instead of 0 and preventing me from using the Mastery upgrade, regardless of whether or not I can then reduce that damage to 0 with Reflect afterward?

I'd say it's ultimately up to the GM.

Going strictly by order of operations as listed in the combat chapter, Reflect would be activated just after damage is calculated but prior to applying the damage against your soak value, which the talent even says. Protect doesn't have that verbiage, so it's unclear if takes place prior to, during, or just after the damage being applied against the target's soak, though the Mastery upgrade suggests the power's effects are applied before soak, which is my read on the power in general.

However, Reflect is all or nothing in terms of damage reduction, as there's no wording to say you can opt to not use the full ranks purchased. So if you've got 3 ranks of Reflect, the damage of the incoming blaster shot in your example would be reduced by 5, leaving 5 damage to be absorbed by Protect, dealing 5 damage since that's what the Protect power absorbed.

Given that it's a major investment in XP to get Force Rating 3 and Protect to that degree of proficiency, I don't see the combination as being inherently gamebreaking. It's powerful, but at the amount of XP needed to get there, the other PCs in the group are going to be equally capable within their respective wheelhouses.

My understanding is that Parry / Reflect comes first, then Protect . That's how I read it.

It's also worth noting that some GMs may lean towards the "one reaction to an effect" rule that many other RPGs use, and thus limit your character to either using Protect or using Reflect, and disallow using both, generally out of concerns of potentially making the character too much of a damage sponge. I disagree with that, since Protect generally has to be set up in advance, but just putting it out there that some GMs may handle the scenario differently.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

It's also worth noting that some GMs may lean towards the "one reaction to an effect" rule that many other RPGs use, and thus limit your character to either using Protect or using Reflect, and disallow using both, generally out of concerns of potentially making the character too much of a damage sponge. I disagree with that, since Protect generally has to be set up in advance, but just putting it out there that some GMs may handle the scenario differently.

I agree. Not only does Protect have to be set up in advance, but its a huge investment in points to build it to a significant level. There is a top tier ability that let's you use it without setting it up in advance, but if I recall correctly, you can only use that ability once per encounter. If the character has invested deeply in protect that has come at the expense of other abilities. My philosophy is that its best to give them what they pay for and, if it turns into an actual problem at the table, talk it out.

Alright, since the general consensus is that this should be allowed, I now have a follow up question.

Say I have a Dice invested in Sense, or use the Dodge/Side Step talent to upgrade the difficulty of incoming attacks. I use the Protect action to reduce incoming damage by 6.

An enemy attacks with a blaster, hitting with a Despair for 10 damage. Would I be able to use Improved Reflect to deal that 10 back at them with the Despair, then inflict the 6 as well as described in the opening post?

Effectively, I'm trying to think out a build idea that doesn't actively strike down opponents, but rather turns as much of their attacks back upon them as possible. "You reap what you sow," and all that.

Per the rules on Improved Reflect (and to an extent Improved Parry), the redirected attack would deal it's standard damage, as that amount is determined prior to even the application of Reflect/Parry.

So yeah, in your example, activating Improved Reflect would mean the target is taking 10 damage from the attack, while odds are you're character isn't taking anything between the combination of Reflect, Protect, and base soak value. Again, this is based on the GM allowing the character to benefit from both Reflect and Protect against the same attack (don't see why they wouldn't, but I've seen GMs for various systems make some rather odd rules adjudications).

Well, Reflect (Improved) is an OoT Incidental while Protect - Mastery is part of the Power check of the previous round. So, with just re-reading it it appears that:

10 incoming damage with a Despair, Reflect 4 for 6 incoming damage.

Assuming Protect was activated the previous round and you have the requisite pips allocated to reduce the damage to 0 before soak.

You would redirect 6 from Protect and 10 from the Reflect (Improved) and take 0 damage (though you might still be knocked down or Disoriented etc, it was a successful attack)

That's what I'm getting from a RAW look. It's for you to decide if that's too much for the game or not. Personally, I'd allow it in my game. Every round our force user is taking Protect actions, she not taking lightsaber actions. She'll probably do less damage this way. lol

22 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

You would redirect 6 from Protect and 10 from the Reflect (Improved)

I'm not sure I understand it correctly. But if the attack deals 10 damages, and you you redirect 6 from Protect +10 from Improved Reflect, that means you redirect 16 damages. That's 6 more than the total damage dealt by the attack. I all for using Protect and Reflect, improved or basic, for the same attack. But I'm not for allowing the use of both to deal more damages than those from that attack.

Or I understand it completely wrong.

28 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

I'm not sure I understand it correctly. But if the attack deals 10 damages, and you you redirect 6 from Protect +10 from Improved Reflect, that means you redirect 16 damages. That's 6 more than the total damage dealt by the attack. I all for using Protect and Reflect, improved or basic, for the same attack. But I'm not for allowing the use of both to deal more damages than those from that attack.

Or I understand it completely wrong.

Mechanically, it comes from the wording and order of operations.

Reflect (Improved) does damage to the attacker equal to the initial attack, before you reduce it by Reflect. In the example 10

Protect redirects whatever damage you would have taken (if Protect alone reduces it to 0), in this case 6

While it would do more damage than the original, I personally don't have a problem with that especially since it's such a situational occurrence and the defending character is sacrificing their action to do so.

Now, alternatively, it's often a misconception that 1 action/attack means 1 shot/hit. Minion groups only get 1 roll, but multiple individuals are firing multiple shots. Same can/should be said for individual characters, as we see many times in the movies. So with multiple shots incoming, one solid one gets Reflected accurately at full power, and all of the remaining ones that got through the characters defenses are absorbed and redirected as well.

That's how I see things. Does it take a bit of "narrative pan back", yeah, but that's the beauty of the system, it's not all about the "crunch" all the time.

14 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

I'm not sure I understand it correctly. But if the attack deals 10 damages, and you you redirect 6 from Protect +10 from Improved Reflect, that means you redirect 16 damages. That's 6 more than the total damage dealt by the attack. I all for using Protect and Reflect, improved or basic, for the same attack. But I'm not for allowing the use of both to deal more damages than those from that attack.

Or I understand it completely wrong.

That's sort of why I started this thread. Going by Rules as Written, it would appear that a "defensive" character such as the build described in my first post could actually return more damage back to their attacker than what the attacker used against them.

Of course, the trade off is that this requires a ton of XP investment for very little gain. You would need at least FR 4 for Protect and Sense, a heavy investment in Protect itself and the left side of the Sense tree, a decent Discipline/Willpower, and Improved Reflect, and the use of your action to simply have the possibility to pull this off, which means you won't be performing attacks of your own. Not to mention you'll be bleeding through Strain pretty quickly when facing more than a single foe, due to your only real damage potential frequently requiring the use of Reflect, and likely Dodge/Side Step as well to improve the odds of Improved Reflect triggering.

That's a pretty considerable trade off for how little gain this truly is. Simply investing in more direct offense would be far more reliable in combat. Invest the same amount of XP required here, and you could build a terrifying Ataru Striker, for example. Or any number of blaster-focused builds could majorly outperform this one. The only real perk to this build is the raw survivability that comes from pairing Protect with Reflect.