18 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I miss Dash...

Muddled around a bit on YASB with the 2400 and I ended up wondering, has anyone tried running Dash with Saw crew or does the self damage on a ship that expensive turn people off despite the nasty potential it has?

Basically i5 and i6 force using aces need to cost as much as these i5 and i6 large base pilots. Just like you cant get RAC with force crew, whisper, and Vader in a list, you shouldnt be able to get three i5 and i6 force using aces in a list. Everytime I build RAC, im just like why wouldnt I take Vader instead for less points? RACs only advantage is taking force crew to help the squad, but being honest, you are going to spend that force on RAC 80% of the time instead of the crews actual ability. Force is just too good in this game. Greater than almost any pilot ability.

Had good time taking Hera to tournament, with a little list fidling she does wonders.

1 hour ago, JBFancourt said:

IN MY HUMBLE O 😜

Super Dash (sure why not BR and Boost and have a 4 die CANNON shoot 360), and Super Han (my ace can move anywhere and still shoot your ace)...

led to Autothrusters (I can stop ANY attack)

which led to hyper offensive mods

...... and eventually we got ENDLESS BOMBS.

But seriously, 😂😂😂 how I miss pre errata whisper. Decloaking after seeing board state.... ❤️❤️❤️

edit: oh I forgot. Remember predator came as a response to tie swarms when they were king. That was really early on tho

Oh, reminiscing. The good old days where Soontir could blank with 4 greens and still get 3 evades. Now that’s a heroic roll!

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Muddled around a bit on YASB with the 2400 and I ended up wondering, has anyone tried running Dash with Saw crew or does the self damage on a ship that expensive turn people off despite the nasty potential it has?

It comes down to the fact that you need N number of attacks to destroy enough/all ships, and those N shots mainly depend on Dash because Jake won't do too much.

If you have 6-8 turns of shots, attacking twice per turn, then you can use Saw in maybe half of them at most. One (but actually any) of those uses requires that you kill an additional 70+ points.

apparently Leebo does not appear in that site at all.

23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It comes down to the fact that you need N number of attacks to destroy enough/all ships, and those N shots mainly depend on Dash because Jake won't do too much.

If you have 6-8 turns of shots, attacking twice per turn, then you can use Saw in maybe half of them at most. One (but actually any) of those uses requires that you kill an additional 70+ points.

Why Jake if Saw is on Dash? Jake passing Dash a Focus action in this case would block Saw crew's ability.

34 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Why Jake if Saw is on Dash? Jake passing Dash a Focus action in this case would block Saw crew's ability.

That does not change one bit the core of my argument.

I could have written "random 50pt wingman" and you would likely point out how much the wingman matters..

The other issue is you have 120 points behind 10 hit points... With no defensive capability.

In 1.0 you tried to arc dodge what you could. But no boost and no PTL means any I1 swarm knows where he’s gonna end up. Want an EPT? Then you have red BRs now too. And the no 360 turret means aces can literally destroy you without taking a shot. Or few shots. You lose one 4 die shot and it’s significant.

IMHO Dash with title should be 20-30 points cheaper. Against your 4 die attacks the enemy now gets another green. At range 1 (which you cannot control as easily anymore cuz no boost red BR) you lose 2 reds. And no PTL means you’re not double modded unless you have a support ship. And you no longer have 360 coverage.

Honestly, the chassis should be equal to the 1300. Boost is infinitely better on a large base than BR and the white boost takes a mod slot while the BR takes an EPT. Also when you take into account the range 1 business, the damage output is similar. And it has 3 fewer HP.

(98) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(6) Expert Handling
(14) Outrider
Points: 118

(82) Han Solo [Modified YT-1300 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(14) Bistan
(7) Engine Upgrade
(4) Trick Shot
Points: 115

Or look at it this way:

(82) Han Solo [Modified YT-1300 Light Freighter]
(7) Engine Upgrade
Points: 89

“Han”ds down the Falcon wins in EVERY category.

😜😜

Or just a straight 98 v 82 chassis comparison. No matter what you build with the 2400 you get more with the 1300.

1 hour ago, Redblock said:

Had good time taking Hera to tournament, with a little list fidling she does wonders.

What’s your list?

53 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That does not change one bit the core of my argument.

I could have written "random 50pt wingman" and you would likely point out how much the wingman matters..

You replied with a side step, @JBFancourt replied directly to the question. Dash is perceived as too expensive to self damage.

10 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

And the agile gunner should go to 2 points for the single turret arcs

I can't quite agree to that. I don't think AgiG is enough worse with a single arc compared to a double-arc. Heck, the fact of getting a free rotate action is probably more powerful, since you'll need to rotate more often. I think some variable pricing with gunners is probably handy (Veteran Turret Gunner should be like 3 points for a ship without a fixed-arc primary weapon, same as Tail Gunner should be), but I don't think Agile Gunner is one of them.
Maybe priced by turret attack dice value, but even then, I'm not sure.

13 hours ago, Ysenhal said:

Trends I'm seeing here:

- No generics, it's all about those juicy pilot abilities.

I've had a bunch of fun with two Patrol Leaders with Fifth Brother or Seventh Sister, plus as much of a pocket ace as you can afford (usually Duchess). I'm not sure it's an actual "good" list, but it's kinda fun to have double decis with either reinforce and red dice mods, or simply force/lock if they're in a safe position. Kind of a lot to chew through.

But the trend against most generics is going to hold true for small/medium ships, as well. Vultures are strong, and like, what else for generics? 104th ARCs?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That does not change one bit the core of my argument.

I could have written "random 50pt wingman" and you would likely point out how much the wingman matters..

Agreed that Saw on Dash is probably a massive trap. Potent as the effect is, the cost in points and in health is just too high.

Right now, the only wingman I'd probably consider for Dash is Luke. Luke with R2-D2 has the best shot at keeping as many points safe as Rebels can do, and Luke can also hit decently hard if he's left alone. I don't think there's anyone else who could both contribute well enough, or else stay alive well enough.

The Dash build I've had most success with these days is Dash w/expert handling and Perceptive copilot alongside Lando YT1300 w/Nien Numb and Jyn Erso crew. I'm 5-0 with this list.

Lando is a great coordinate battery for Dash. Both ships can get actions and still hit hard.

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You replied with a side step, @JBFancourt replied directly to the question. Dash is perceived as too expensive to self damage.

That's one but not the only reason. My reply was another one.

The biggest issue for Large-base ships is simple action efficiency. Unless I missed one, the only large base ship with a linked action is the Jumpmaster.

I'm wondering how broken it would be to add a flat rule change allowing Large ships to perform two actions per turn. Maybe just large-base ships with a total point value of 90+ points after upgrades. Just being able to Reinforce and still get offensive mods would be huge for the VCX, YV-666 and Decimators. Might be too good for Han and Chirpy, though.

18 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

The biggest issue for Large-base ships is simple action efficiency. Unless I missed one, the only large base ship with a linked action is the Jumpmaster.

I'm wondering how broken it would be to add a flat rule change allowing Large ships to perform two actions per turn. Maybe just large-base ships with a total point value of 90+ points after upgrades. Just being able to Reinforce and still get offensive mods would be huge for the VCX, YV-666 and Decimators. Might be too good for Han and Chirpy, though.

Rebel Lando YT-1300 might also become too much

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

The biggest issue for Large-base ships is simple action efficiency. Unless I missed one, the only large base ship with a linked action is the Jumpmaster.

I'm wondering how broken it would be to add a flat rule change allowing Large ships to perform two actions per turn. Maybe just large-base ships with a total point value of 90+ points after upgrades. Just being able to Reinforce and still get offensive mods would be huge for the VCX, YV-666 and Decimators. Might be too good for Han and Chirpy, though.

This would be awesome. There would definitely need to be some stipulations... one being that at least one action MUST be from the action bar on the pilot card, which could be modified by a crew of course like from perceptive copilot.

This would curb any crazy regen shenanigans, negating critical damage, or possible broken crew combos.

Also, standard stress and ion rules would apply, though the ion effects should limit large ships to a single action.

No lie? I think I'm going to take this idea and run with it for casual games!

Edit - I want to refine this, so I'll make a new topic as to not derail this one!

People are saying Large ships need more action economy. Its true, but there are ways around it. This is my Hera list, low on upgrades, high on ships, and all about action economy.

Sheathipede-class Shuttle - •Ezra Bridger - 47
•Ezra Bridger - Spectre-6 (42)
Sense (5)

RZ-1 A-wing - •Jake Farrell - 37
•Jake Farrell - Sage Instructor (36)
Crack Shot (1)

RZ-1 A-wing - •Arvel Crynyd - 37
•Arvel Crynyd - Green Leader (34)
Intimidation (3)

VCX-100 Light Freighter - •Hera Syndulla - 79
•Hera Syndulla - Spectre-2 (73)
•Leia Organa (6)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I don't think large ships need fiddling with mechanically, that's a massive can of worms. Adding an action will push various pilots into nonsense territory.

The slots and options large ships have access to already give them what they need, but also means they suffer greatly from the diminishing returns extra upgrades provide and the shrinking space for effective wingmates. It's a delicate balance. Aside from a few clear examples, targetted points changes, and perhaps a few slots, would be enough imo.

I think it's important that large ships remain puzzling to use and build well. Obviously it should not be impossible, or too difficult, but making it too easy would be a horrible misstep and open the way to all sorts of nasty.

Large ships dont need systematically applied extra actions, but more crew like Minister Tua would be nice- granting free red actions.

I think large bases should have more ways to shoot twice. I don't even think it would have to be expensive, just limited to large. You can already make a CROC corsair that shoots 4 times, and only expends one energy , for around 100 points. Large ships are being overshadowed by huge ships.

5 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

The biggest issue for Large-base ships is simple action efficiency. Unless I missed one, the only large base ship with a linked action is the Jumpmaster.

I'm wondering how broken it would be to add a flat rule change allowing Large ships to perform two actions per turn. Maybe just large-base ships with a total point value of 90+ points after upgrades. Just being able to Reinforce and still get offensive mods would be huge for the VCX, YV-666 and Decimators. Might be too good for Han and Chirpy, though.

This is in fact what makes RAC one of the more viable large bases. His reinforce also gives offensive mods.

Same for Lando. Same for Han passive rock mods.

19 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Lots of rambling below not presented as coherently as it probably needs to be but w/e some of the points I think are still important.

I think the challenge with some of the Large Bases gets back to single ships ( even small ones ) being overstuffed with mechanical options. This is the Dash or Defender "problem". Often happens at the request of players. These things kinda naturally get priced into the High 80s or 100s out of necessity and only work when they function as or compete with Pure Mobile Aces (i.e. Han) and end up fitting in like 2-3 possible lists. I think this generally happens because some of the Large Bases cant hang with lists made up of Two to Three 50-80 pt High Init Aces, the exact issue that Three Generics of almost any kind in the 70-100 pt range have.

Large Bases struggle with the same thing almost everything in the game currently struggles to matchup with, Undercosted Highly Mobile Aces. Some exceptions to this, mainly Large Bases that actually are Aces, ie Rey and Han or Large Base Control ships like Ketsu. Time on target feels like a pressing need against Aces, this isnt just a Large Base problem. Might sound counter intuitive but alot of Swarm Lists (even the very best ones ) actually have pretty bad time on target to which is why they tend to undeperform in cut. Price Aces more correctly for once and I think more Large Bases and their Point Equivalent in small/medium i1-i4 things will begin to appear in the meta.

Just to drive this point home, look at the point totals on virtually any Team of 3 Generics in the game:

• Tie Bomber - Scimitar ( 87 )
• Tie Advanced v1 - Baron ( 96 )
• Tie Interceptor - Alpha ( 102 )
• Tie Striker - Sentinel ( 102 )
• Khiraxz - Cartel ( 114 )
• z95 - Bandit Squadron or Banana (69, 72)
• Syck - Cartel ( 84 )
• Mining Guild Tie - Sentry ( 72 )
• Y-Wing - Grey or Goonie or Red ( 93, 93, 99 )
• RZ1A - Phoenix ( 90 )
• RZ2A - Blue ( 99 )
• Tie FO - Epsilon ( 78 )
• Tie SF - Zeta ( 96 )
• Torrent - Gold Squadron ( 75 )
• B22 - Feet ( 102 )
• Hyena - Techno Union ( 78 )
• Vulture - Trade Fed ( 76 ) - Team of 4
• N1 - Bravo ( 102 )

I dont want all of these to become cheaper, I want Aces to be priced correctly (i.e. Right at 200 for 3 of them). Match most of these Teams of Three against pretty much any 60-80 pt Ace and they will lose the majority of the time vs a competent player. Exceptions are basically Teams of Three with access to rear arcs or defensive token stacks. But even the ones which are specifically teched to deal with Aces tend to struggle. Much less of a problem when there is only 1 pure ace to deal with in the end game. Some of the Large Bases have underperformed no doubt and will likely see minor pt deceases. But they arent the only thing in that point range that has suffered against cheap groups of Aces throughout 2.0's first year. I think FFG needs to address that problem consistently across all factions, without picking one or two factions per point cycle to get to be the 20 point bid Trip Ace of the season ( this isnt a Bid Rules problem either, its just undercosted things doing undercosted things). Push that stuff towards 200 across the board and ships we generally consider "bad" might start to see more play without significant buffs.

Other thing to add. It also sounds counter intuitive but if we want Large Bases to be more relevant in more lists we pretty much should be requesting less of them, or at least that their role in a list be more specific, so their costs can stay reasonable. Tavson, Hera, Lando, Lambdas, Ketsu, RAC have all seen play because they can do somethings well in an overall list without having to be the entire list. Not saying they have performed well but they definitely have shown signs of quality. Asking less of them leaves room in the list for a couple or even several other ships.

Wanting any 1 large base ship to basically be your list will end up poorly. That works only in the extreme ( Kanan Han, Dash Rorak ) and then gets nerfed into oblivion for semi obvious reason.

"Normal" Large Bases Do This Stuff:

• 60-80 Points
• Powerful Offense
• Powerful Support
• Limited Mobility
• Limited Time On Target
• Consistent Durability ( Basically high HP Count or Re-Enforce )
• Extremely Fast flankers with 3 speed moves
• Excellent Blockers
• Deal with Swarms Well with 2 wingmates
• Area Control ( i.e. Tavson/Hera )

"Rare" Large Bases Do This Stuff:

• 80-100 Points
• Reposition
• Arc Dodge
• Defensively Token Stack
• Shoot Twice Per Turn
• Always Have Arc On Target

Basically I don't think Time On Target and Mobility buffs are the only solution for making Large Bases more relevant. The better that is the higher their points have to be and costs end up high again as they become essentially Ace equivalents. Have them do a couple of the things well and the rest mediocre so they can function in that 60-80 point range and allow lists to even out matchups against the field (i.e. like Tavson/Hera do against Swarms). Pair that with properly costed Mobile Aces and I think they can find a more consistent home for a larger # of large bases in the meta without constantly walking the Dash Rorak line. Then FFG can really focus on making one or two very rare large base things like the YT1300 walk the Dash/Rorak line which seems like it takes a ton of careful iteration.

^

"I can't play my favorite ship, it must be underpowered"

If your favorite ship has no time on target against an ace, Short of cost reductions that actively ruin the game, that is not solvable by making generics or lower initiative pilots cheaper. No time on target for 1-2 less points is still no time on target. The problem is, and has been since the inception of 2.0, ace play. The CIS has done okay at contesting aces with swarms, but that's only with some questionable cost reductions that put them well ahead of normal squadrons and even then, they were only a pseudo counter.

On 12/28/2019 at 8:24 AM, JBFancourt said:

I almost think that any ship with a double bowtie turret arc should get the agile gunner text for free. Just slap it in the rules FFG. 😜

And the agile gunner should go to 2 points for the single turret arcs

Most of the gunner upgrades are terribly overpriced. The Rebel gunners, especially, are ridiculously inefficient for the points they cost. The only Gunner that's seen reasonable play is/was Scum-Han, because he's action-efficiency. Gunners that deal with attacking are all insanely costed, and I wouldn't even run most of them at 4pts yet they still cost 14+ points in many cases. I have played a lot of games with a Rebel Falcon because it's my favorite ship and nostalgia, but I haven't bothered putting a Gunner upgrade on it in any games within the past year because the options are all underwhelming to start with ON TOP OF also being heavily overcosted.

Significantly lowering the cost of most of the Gunner upgrades (especially the unique Rebel ones) might help some of those upgrades actually get fielded for a change, but I think the issues holding back large-based ships (especially bowties) go far beyond just the gunner seat.

On 12/29/2019 at 3:22 PM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Most of the gunner upgrades are terribly overpriced. The Rebel gunners, especially, are ridiculously inefficient for the points they cost. The only Gunner that's seen reasonable play is/was Scum-Han, because he's action-efficiency. Gunners that deal with attacking are all insanely costed, and I wouldn't even run most of them at 4pts yet they still cost 14+ points in many cases. I have played a lot of games with a Rebel Falcon because it's my favorite ship and nostalgia, but I haven't bothered putting a Gunner upgrade on it in any games within the past year because the options are all underwhelming to start with ON TOP OF also being heavily overcosted.

Significantly lowering the cost of most of the Gunner upgrades (especially the unique Rebel ones) might help some of those upgrades actually get fielded for a change, but I think the issues holding back large-based ships (especially bowties) go far beyond just the gunner seat.

It seems like the Gunner slot in general isn't being really used as intended. You're more likely to see a Gunner used for having a Force Point than anything else.