The State of the Game; Large base ships in competitive play

By Cloaker, in X-Wing

Looking over stats from ATC; the top 10 most used large base ships competitively is something intriguing to survey at this stage in the game. In researching @Brunas 's great resource at http://advancedtargeting.computer/index.html who might provide us with more detail in January for large base ship performance analysis, thought it good to reflect currently on this facet of design. To offer those top 10 and their rank among all ships/pilots in quantity usage for tourneys;

#18 (out of ALL ships used in OP); Lt. Tavson, Upsilon Shuttle; 156 total lists

Winrate 54.1%

Cut 31.4%

Cut winrate 35.4%.

Observation; The most used large base pilot. The low winrate at higher levels of play is to be expected, as top players know how to effectively engage an Ups list with Tavson and minimize risk. While the 4 primary is horrifying to face for opponents, rarely can he provide 3 or more quality attack turns with it in an average game, as most opponents opt to fly around or away from him. One of early second edition's most efficient ships, he's been largely figured out and his future potential might only get murkier. He'll still most likely go up slightly in points in January, however, given his action economy, probably making the anvil of many FO lists less prevalent as the faction overall continues its drift into triple ace / swarm archetype.

#22 Colonel Jendon, Lambda Shuttle; 147 total lists

Winrate 52.1%

Cut 22.4%

Cut winrate 44.8%

Observation; The best Alpha engagement utility in the empire's disposal, Jendon assists many Imperial ship lists; He can give Targeting Computer Soontir and Vader locks out of the gate, or he can enable Hatchetman Vynder to initiate his onslaught of munitions aggro, or he can setup barrage bomber spam, or Redline, the options are tremendous. And then there's always the possibility he shuttles the Emperor to modify every turn. Why is his cutrate so low? Perhaps it's because of higher overall average ship counts---in 1.0 there were much more 2 and 3 ships lists, but now it is fairly common to see 7 ship CIS / Sear murderswarms. And the shuttle just can't lift enough weight in those matchups to stay ahead in the damage race. He's well costed however, and if those banes that threaten his viability go up as predicted in January, he might have a bit more success on extended tables.

#28 Rear Admiral Chiraneau, Decimator; 134 total lists

Winrate 51.6%

Cut 20.1%

Cut winrate 51.2%

Observation; He ain't heavy, he's my RAC! Possibly suffering from the same vulnerabilities as the Lambda (more effective swarms in 2.0) it is interesting to note that he is the highest usage large base pilot to show a cut winrate over 50%--this might be due to the fact that it isn't unusual to find him in a 2 ship list in elite play, flown by experienced players who understand how to best bring the many facets RAC offers to bear effectively. But we are seeing a theme already here; the top 3 large ships competitively used in volume in 2.0 are used mainly for a) their pilot abilities rather than their chassis and b) as ships that rarely are considered to be viable endgame candidates. RAC is certainly costed reasonably...for 8 points over the Patrol Leader he gets a talent slot and Initiative 5. And some could even still argue he and the other Decimators could come down a point or two. But this is unlikely given that the Patrol Leader can't (and shouldn't) go below 67 for fear of 3 Decis in a list. RAC represents a litmus to watch as he is probably the pilot with the best utility to tip the scales competitively with the right combination (I'm looking at you, Minister Tua and Moff Jerjerrod.)

#51 Han Solo, Rebel YT-1300; 79 total lists

Winrate 48.8%

Cut 20.2%

Cut winrate 47.8%

Observation; Our old buddy and pal, considering the top 5 pilots most used in tourney lists are all over 300+ count, (with Obi-Wan and Vader both over 400!) looking at the scoundrel appearing in only 79 lists indicates it's probably mainly out of love for the thematic nature he offers. Handbrake Han had a brief day in the spotlight, but he rightfully had the toys that made him so effective properly curated. The bigger picture here moreso than Han is the large drop in the usage rank; It's a plummet of 23 total spots from RAC for the next large base ship to be represented. Han has and always will be a fixture of the game, even if it is more in casual than OP, but the potential for him to tilt into uber effectiveness is possibly the slightest of margins of all large based ships in the game. That's because of three things; His ability, the double mod slot, and Boost. These represent a perfect storm of challenge in competent hands. Yes, the other iterations of the Falcon also have access to the red boost, but they lack the action economy afforded by a well flown, obstacle skirting, Rebel Han kitted with Engine Upgrade + modification to taste. He's already been priced down once, there's just too much risk in going further, as even a no upgrade Han at 41% of squad value is a tremendous bargain.

#60 Lando Calrissian, Rebel YT-1300; 70 total lists

Winrate 51.8%

Cut 30%

Cut winrate 41.6%

Observation; It should hardly be a surprise to see the dashing future Rebel General as the next large base pilot to be used in volume. He has all of the aforementioned benefits of the Rebel YT-1300 chassis, and the most beneficially versatile method of achieving the stalwart talent of first edition, Push the Limit. Simply put, Lando can do what none of the large ships do above him or in the game can do; He can action himself and then reposition. While this gives him tremendous utility, especially when paired with Nien Nunb, his usefulness in squads extends to providing any friendly ship in the Rebel Alliance with PTL as well. He makes the cut nearly a third of the time, which isn't impressive overall but then as with Han, there's isn't much wiggle room for points decrease. Ask yourself if an additional 6% of your squad budget is worth the uptick from the initiative 1 Outer Rim Smuggler at 69 to get Init 5 conditionally favorable PTL. The answer is most certainly yes, and we are far more likely to see a points decrease on the ORS (but no more than 2 points, as 3 rebel YT-1300s would be incredibly formidable even at Init 1) before we'll ever see one on Lando again. In fact, I'd argue that Lando is undercosted still given his value in a squad, especially one that fields high initiative alpha strike munition carriers.

#65 Rey, Resistance YT-1300; 59 total lists

Winrate 50%

Cut 13.5%

Cut winrate 33.3%

Observation; At this point, it becomes clear that the YT-1300 in any iteration holds the lion's share of representation competitively for large bases. This is skewed heavily by the prequel factions having only one large base total between them and 2 large base ships out of 17 total options across 42% of the 7 factions in the game when including FO. This will loosen up as FFG releases new large base ships for those factions, but for now, we have half of the top 6 being a Falcon of some sort. Rey was a terror in first edition, but she's been slow to join the party here. The cutrate tells the tale; she's just not very good given her surrounding options. Some of this is the discovery of just how awful the scavenged YT-1300 is in a game with higher ship counts and less rounds for time on target. The loss of the one straight blue, the red 4 K, the red rotate and 2 less shields are enormous hurdles to overcome in list-building. And then there is also the issue of her price proportionately to her wingmates. There just isn't a lot of variety to bring other elements to keep the heat off her and the albatross of MOV her destruction gives the opposition. Yet you can't really reduce her price.... why? Those 2 Force Points. They're huge for damage mitigation. (A liberally undercosted Rebel Leia YT-1300 might not be something we want to see too much of, BTW!) But ultimately, it's the challenges of the chassis and the similar maligns the Jumpmaster faces that lead me to offer a controversial solution; Cost illicits more favorably. Much has already been discussed about Scum factionally suffer without their tricks, and the Illicit advantages of Inertial Dampeners and Contraband Cybernetics are surefire ways to help the Resistance YT-1300 (and the JM5K) be more valuable with fire-duty cycles. (Also, who wouldn't mind seeing Old Han on the board for a change?!!!)

#69 Lieutenant Sai, Lambda Shuttle; 49 total lists

Winrate 58.1%

Cut 28.5%

Cut winrate 68.4%

Observation; A bit of a dark horse surprise here, as the highest winrate large base pilot overall with at least 20+ competitive list sampling also boasts the largest cut winrate, just over 2 out of 3. Sai has essentially been lurking at the outer fringes of OP. She's interesting to experiment with, as she provides a degree of action economy for a squad in a manner similar to Lando, but in a faction where such economies are perhaps of even greater benefit for getting their trademark ace lynchpins to the endgame. If she gets 4 quality attacks in during the entirety of a dogfight where the endgame ship (most likely Vader, but possibly Defenders when they and the Lambda come to Hyperspace) still is at full points, I'd wager that the Sai player probably wins, but with an important caveat; She absolutely MUST have the ST-321 title. This gives her 3 die primary a fully modified attack provided she coordinates a focus. That's hella good for scarcely 1/4th of a total squad budget (albeit most likely three total ships, as Imps love their bids) and screams that there's some gold to mine here. The argument can be made given the data that Sai is the BEST large base potentially barring a points increase in January, which there seems little danger of as she isn't a prominent fixture on tables currently for the Empire. But don't be surprised if that changes in the future...

#70 Ketsu Onyo, Lancer Pursuit Craft; 48 total lists

Winrate 41.5%

Cut 18.7%

Cut winrate 14.2%

Observation; Our first Scum pilot to be represented in this list in a faction that has the most large base options, Ketsu has probably arrived here due to one undeniable factor; Her offense. There's no two ways about it, she hits any poor ship she runs into at range 0-1 HARD. Augmented by her ability, the Shadow Caster title, and Fearless, she can deliver a painful blow to any fragile ace hovering at her advantageous assigned initiative 5. Quite simply, she can pick many a 4 health ship off the table in one go. The issue? It's within the dial---this is a chassis that with it's large base gives up a lot of space once it clears the Alpha, with its predilections for 3+ speed maneuvers. While many lament the reduction of the turret primary to a 2 attack value, it most likely is for the best as Ketsu would be very hard to pin down later without getting hurt in return. How is she played in the competitive scene is probably as the hammer she is meant to be, and 38% with the prior mentioned of a squad base cost she is a pretty decent return on investment. But the low cut representation and performance is undeniable, and tells us that in a galaxy of the current swarm and ace meta archetypes she just doesn't have the stamina to hold up. She's just too much MOV to afford to give up, but a price drop on the Lancer chassis of 2-3 points might just be enough for her to creep into what she might be best at; as a third ship in a 3 ship list that can win the game for you if played without error.

#79 Captain Oicunn, Decimator; 42 total lists

Winrate 43.2%

Cut 7.1%

Cut winrate 0%

Observation; Our 9th large base pilot in this list of 10 has us continuing to scrape the bottom of the cut barrel. Sure, Oicunn has gotten a modicum of play, but it hasn't turned out well. The reason? Most likely the irresistible temptation to make an Initiative 3 zero agility ship nearly half of an imperial squads list, which is what happens once one tacks on Intimidation and the Dauntless title. The reality is at that point it becomes hard to not resist putting some sort of crew on him, maybe even two because hey, there's two slots, and before you know it, poof! That monkey of points on your back has turned into a gorilla, and not a very competitive one at that. The deficiency of options Oicunn allows for filling out a squad works against the very things that make the Empire so good; The tools at their disposal. Sure, you could drop a couple of Gunboats in a list with him and try to pincer, or go for the traditional two ship Decimator approach whether it is RAC or an Ace, but the indisputable truth is that Oicunn just can't hang with all of the varied threats in the competitive scene. The game has changed, and maybe even passed him by. He's a relic of an approach that worked fine in the 1.0 game, with only 3 factions and insane combos and that invaluable Engine Upgrade, but here in 2.0 at that lofty price point and easy to hit broadside, it puts him more as a novelty for casual play and perhaps Epic. He might be the best candidate on this entire list for a sizable point drop but then again, there's that pesky Patrol Leader threshold of 68 to consider. How low can he go, if at all?

#83 Darth Maul, Sith Infiltrator; 39 total lists

Winrate 46.7%

Cut 12.8%

Cut winrate 0%

Observation; How the mighty have fallen! In what was FFG's quickest re-calibration on a large base pilot's viability aside from the Voldemorting intent given to Tripsilon (and the accompanying Dormitz/Hyperspace Tracking Data builds) and Shotgun Dash, Maul rides on the faintest of winds, propelled by the briefest of past glories, to do one thing and that is ATTACK. The only new faction pilot to make the top 10, he currently suffers through from being in a faction that currently just isn't designed to carry him; Swarm heavy ace hunters that can also still melt high HP ships in a couple of turns if all goes right for them and wrong for him. While the Dooku/Maul list was quite a beast to contend with, the prospect of seeing his own faction doing what it does best on the other side of the table once Servants of Strife was released was probably the nail in the coffin for him competitively. That, and the base adjusted pricing of Hate. (Unrelated, is fellow Infiltrator pilot 0-66 really so bad as to only get into 9 lists competitively? Seems like he should have gotten the Networked Calculations ability, that would have been neat.) Maul's no joke ability to double tap, combined with a great dial as far as large bases are concerned, are what obviously make him alluring. But until Relays are reduced a bit in cost, and CIS gets a true cheap shuttle ship to help coordinate his barrel rolls to keep him having that gun focused on his prey, Maul will stay in the Salt Mines.

Some final assessments;

1) Despite getting some mostly favorable repricings, large bases have still generally struggled to be better options than having an additional small base ship in second edition

2) Large base Pilots seeing play aren't really tearing it up competitively, and this might be reflective of less combo-wing than before in 1.0

3) Large bases are fairly cost prohibitive right now, and with half points on all ships being a thing, for top level players it's better to spread out MOV, count on their better sense of target prioritization and do the math

4) Recent 2.0 large base releases like the VCX-100 and the Jumpmaster are non factors in OP so far and probably paying for past sins of 1.0

My above sentiments are by no means authoritative or comprehensive. Just my own limited observations on how large bases are currently functioning in the game from a competitive standpoint. Thought it was worth sharing and presenting for forum dialogue as we head into 2020 and the next round of points adjusts. Cheers!

Edited by Cloaker

I miss Dash...

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I miss Dash...

I think he's going to be making a comeback in January to some degree. His main nemesis is swarms, which are more plentiful now then in the latter days of 1.0, and he can keep some Aces and Jedi maybe even in check, so he has merit as a gatekeeper there. Dropping all YT2400 pilots 10 points right out of the gate January, I'd have zero issue with personally.

One of the major problems with large bases is simply how they fly. They've got a hard time putting much time on target. Another is that while they have a lot of health, it's easily depleted with even the weakest of attacks(which makes swarms a particular nemesis to them).

I notice that 3/4 scum large ships aren't even mentioned, probably because they're doing quite badly, if they even see tournament play at all. And the only one that's mentioned has a kturn to help it get some more time on target, and 2 agility, and still does poorly.

By every metric, turret large bases got worse in Second Edition (e.g. more prevalent swarms and beef lists to face, lost 50-75% of their attack coverage, reliability-upgrades became basically non-existent, critical damage got far more punishing). Yet, large bases are generally as expensive as their 1.0 counterparts were, despite being far less valuable.

The result is that, barring the support-oriented Lambda and Upsilon, large-based ships have generally been trash the entire run of Second Edition. After a year and a half FFG has shown little to no interest in addressing the issue, so I'm not holding my breath for them to become competitively viable anytime soon.

Trends I'm seeing here:

- No generics, it's all about those juicy pilot abilities.

- Nothing with only a 2-dice primary.

- Multiple mods/actions (Rey, Han, RAC, Tavson, Lando if he gives himself an action, Dooku, Maul)

- Supporty ships (Lando, Jendon, Tavson, Sai)

- Ships that have some way of mitigating the "going too fast" problem with large bases. Rebel YV-1300s and Decimators can circle around with the turret sideways. Oicunn and Ketsu can bump into something and still shoot it. Shuttles can stop and also provide support abilities when they don't have shots.

As others have mentioned, a lot of big ships have trouble with time on target. It seems like in order to compensate for that they need to either hit extra hard when they do get a shot, or still be able to do useful things when they don't.

Not to derail the conversation, its actually quite interesting, but Sai is in fact, a female.

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

By every metric, turret large bases got worse in Second Edition (e.g. more prevalent swarms and beef lists to face, lost 50-75% of their attack coverage, reliability-upgrades became basically non-existent, critical damage got far more punishing). Yet, large bases are generally as expensive as their 1.0 counterparts were, despite being far less valuable.

The result is that, barring the support-oriented Lambda and Upsilon, large-based ships have generally been trash the entire run of Second Edition. After a year and a half FFG has shown little to no interest in addressing the issue, so I'm not holding my breath for them to become competitively viable anytime soon.

To be fair to FFG, they specifically stated this in the article for the first points update. They stated that they were going to lower the cost of large bases and their upgrades. This is when RAC became somewhat flyable....

.... and Dash went from 100 to 98... 🙄


I do agree with you and other posters that point and upgrade changes HELP greatly with viability, BUT unfortunately DESIGN is the biggest obstacle IMHO.

The whole point of the clunky big base turret in 1.0 was time on target... then they gave them double reposition, arc dodging, turret platforms... and “begun the arms race has.”

I almost think that any ship with a double bowtie turret arc should get the agile gunner text for free. Just slap it in the rules FFG. 😜

And the agile gunner should go to 2 points for the single turret arcs

Edited by JBFancourt
1 minute ago, JBFancourt said:

To be fair to FFG, they specifically stated this in the article for the first points update. They stated that they were going to lower the cost of large bases and their upgrades. This is when RAC became somewhat flyable....

.... and Dash went from 100 to 98... 🙄


I do agree with you and other posters that point and upgrade changes HELP greatly with viability, BUT unfortunately DESIGN is the biggest obstacle IMHO.

The whole point of the clunky big base turret in 1.0 was time on target... then they gave them double reposition, arc dodging, turret platforms... and “begun the arms race has.”

I almost think that any ship with a double bowtie turret arc should get the agile gunner text for free. Just slap it in the rules FFG. 😜

I'd be ok with: any gunner that requires a [turret arc icon] allows you to perform a rotate turret action on your action bar in the end phase.

It's a fair bit of power and action economy, but you're still relegated to the end phase and you're still at the mercy of stress; if you're stressed you can't rotate, and if your rotate action is red it stresses you. And it'd let those double turret arcs get a little more use from those expensive generic gunners.

PS: Dash can go down anywhere from 1-5 points so long as Outrider goes up by an equal or greater amount :D

Overall, I like how large ships have been done in 2nd ed.

A few were badly designed to be too hard to balance with just points (YT2400 and Jumpmaster in particular) but this is far better than they were in 1st.

Others have been done very well indeed, such as Lambdas, where points tweaks change them from too weak to too powerful or kept in balance.

But generally, if a large ship costs double an equivalent small ship, it needs to be providing something that can't otherwise be done, or a way to double the effectiveness of themselves or another ship.

Maybe a similar study featuring medium ships would be interesting to compare?

I think Dash might be better than expected: but folks gotta give up on Trick Shot/Outrider. Too expensive, too hard to get consistently lined up. Maybe it'd work when flown really well, but I think it's a massive trap.

Dash needs mobility, which means he needs his barrel roll, which means Dash either: [1] Expert Handling (which I really hope gets a 50% price cut on all ship sizes... it's unplayed, and many red Roll ships don't see play either) [2] Kanan Jarrus. I'm inclined to think Kanan is the better choice. Kanan/Lone Wolf is a lot of passive mods (good!) plus it opens up Dash's whole dial. I think that's the secret sauce. I guess it's not strictly incompatible with TS/Out, but I still think it's over-investment in a trick which, while hard hitting, really limits your movements.

//

Han/Lando are interesting ships to me. I think they're probably fairly solid in theory, but folks don't want to fly them. Some of that is the old Rock-Paper-Scissors. These two aren't good enough against aces, to make up for the large number of Vultures out there.

13 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Looking over stats from ATC; the top 10 most used large base ships competitively is something intriguing to survey at this stage in the game

I don't think you can use atc for this.

15 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Rebel Han kitted with Engine Upgrade + modification to taste.

Rebel Falcon also has access to Kanan Crew which is Engine Upgrade, with a force point, that also essentially gives you Dash’s ability, and for Han that’s all at i6.

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

The whole point of the clunky big base turret in 1.0 was time on target... then they gave them double reposition, arc dodging, turret platforms... and “begun the arms race has.”

Revisionist history. Everyone who lived through the dark times of wave 4 knows Aces i.e. Phantoms specifically, fired the first shot in the arms race as they were only catachable by a 360 turret. Luckily, the poor design decisions of Phantoms haven't plagued 2.0 as well...*whistles nervously*

15 hours ago, Cloaker said:

2) Large base Pilots seeing play aren't really tearing it up competitively, and this might be reflective of less combo-wing than before in 1.0

4) Recent 2.0 large base releases like the VCX-100 and the Jumpmaster are non factors in OP so far and probably paying for past sins of 1.0

These two assessments pretty much sum up large bases. The other wrinkle is the addition of medium based ships. The u wing and fire spray both got better but there classification changed where as the vcx resistance falcon lost health.

I believe some large based ships are stronger than people think I've seen Bossk used to good effect it's just the tools around him need work. The same for stridan with the right crew he could be easily broken.

4 hours ago, Ikka said:

Not to derail the conversation, its actually quite interesting, but Sai is in fact, a female.

Rightfully corrected!

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't think you can use atc for this.

I wholeheartedly admit you're far more versed than me so I won't claim there isn't some static within the above correlations.... @Brunas I am sure has some arcane methods of better illustrating what the premise is within the competitive analyses he compounds. Which, I dare say, might still show similar conclusions.

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

And the agile gunner should go to 2 points for the single turret arcs

Gunner upgrade costing by turret type? Why that's just elegant.

I'd even price it higher in descending order of ship base size as well. Prevent turret spam, but give value to large ships in action economy rotates.

Little ideas like yours are why I love throwing my ideas and observations out there. Fun groupthink stuff. You deserve a cup of hot coffee!

Edited by Cloaker
32 minutes ago, reqent said:

... I've seen Bossk used to good effect it's just the tools around him need work. The same for stridan with the right crew he could be easily broken.

I LOVE Bossk. He was my first ship purchase when I got into the game. And I think you're right. Because the strength of Scum lies in illicits and crew, two things the YV does well, he is reasonably priced to deliver the goods.

I'd like all the YV pilots to come down 2 more points. Then I'd put him on the table every game.

4 hours ago, Ikka said:

Not to derail the conversation, its actually quite interesting, but Sai is in fact, a female.

True facts.

k7lFKLh.jpg

5 hours ago, Ysenhal said:

Trends I'm seeing here:

- No generics, it's all about those juicy pilot abilities.

- Nothing with only a 2-dice primary.

- Multiple mods/actions (Rey, Han, RAC, Tavson, Lando if he gives himself an action, Dooku, Maul)

- Supporty ships (Lando, Jendon, Tavson, Sai)

- Ships that have some way of mitigating the "going too fast" problem with large bases. Rebel YV-1300s and Decimators can circle around with the turret sideways. Oicunn and Ketsu can bump into something and still shoot it. Shuttles can stop and also provide support abilities when they don't have shots.

As others have mentioned, a lot of big ships have trouble with time on target. It seems like in order to compensate for that they need to either hit extra hard when they do get a shot, or still be able to do useful things when they don't.

More true facts.

I've been using Latts a fair bit, with Assaj more recently. Arc coverage and double mods are the be all and end all.

The YV can stall, hard turn and double mod for long enough to keep the arc impactful. Assaj can double mod and cover pretty well, since she can afford to rotate and force mod/offer control.

It's still difficult, simply because you can't really opt out of taking damage. The 3rd pillar of large base strength, lasting long enough. Some kind of damage mitigation is really important. Reinforce/tractor and force/evade help my 2, but you have to choose one way or the other, sacrifice is necessary. It's a bit too much in one direction or the other and hard to maintain coverage at the same time. This all seems quite balanced, if ever so slightly overcosted.

Large bases do tend to tip into NPE quite easily, the list I used is decent, but has to tiptoe around being horribly unpleasant to play against.

2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

True facts.

k7lFKLh.jpg

Large bases do tend to tip into NPE quite easily, the list I used is decent, but has to tiptoe around being horribly unpleasant to play against.

I want that card. She's ADORABLE. Also, please share your large base build, don't keep all those cookies for yourself, it's the holidays.

This is my take on the bossk list I played against mostly because i cannot remember the exact list. Its definitely has synergy.

YV-666 Light Freighter - •Bossk - 77
•Bossk - Fearsome Hunter (64)
Marksmanship (1)
•Ketsu Onyo (5)
•0-0-0 (5)
•BT-1 (2)

Escape Craft - •L3-37 - 32
•L3-37 - Droid Revolutionary (26)
Tactical Officer (6)

Lancer-class Pursuit Craft - •Asajj Ventress - 88
•Asajj Ventress - Force of Her Own (74)
•Lando Calrissian (8)
Shadow Caster (3)
Brilliant Evasion (3)

Total: 197/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

I want that card. She's ADORABLE. Also, please share your large base build, don't keep all those cookies for yourself, it's the holidays.

Haha. I've already shared it quite a bit. The Latts build has starred in several lists, but this is about the pair of them together.

Lots of rambling below not presented as coherently as it probably needs to be but w/e some of the points I think are still important.

I think the challenge with some of the Large Bases gets back to single ships ( even small ones ) being overstuffed with mechanical options. This is the Dash or Defender "problem". Often happens at the request of players. These things kinda naturally get priced into the High 80s or 100s out of necessity and only work when they function as or compete with Pure Mobile Aces (i.e. Han) and end up fitting in like 2-3 possible lists. I think this generally happens because some of the Large Bases cant hang with lists made up of Two to Three 50-80 pt High Init Aces, the exact issue that Three Generics of almost any kind in the 70-100 pt range have.

Large Bases struggle with the same thing almost everything in the game currently struggles to matchup with, Undercosted Highly Mobile Aces. Some exceptions to this, mainly Large Bases that actually are Aces, ie Rey and Han or Large Base Control ships like Ketsu. Time on target feels like a pressing need against Aces, this isnt just a Large Base problem. Might sound counter intuitive but alot of Swarm Lists (even the very best ones ) actually have pretty bad time on target to which is why they tend to undeperform in cut. Price Aces more correctly for once and I think more Large Bases and their Point Equivalent in small/medium i1-i4 things will begin to appear in the meta.

Just to drive this point home, look at the point totals on virtually any Team of 3 Generics in the game:

  • Tie Bomber - Scimitar ( 87 )
  • Tie Advanced v1 - Baron ( 96 )
  • Tie Interceptor - Alpha ( 102 )
  • Tie Striker - Sentinel ( 102 )
  • Khiraxz - Cartel ( 114 )
  • z95 - Bandit Squadron or Banana (69, 72)
  • Syck - Cartel ( 84 )
  • Mining Guild Tie - Sentry ( 72 )
  • Y-Wing - Grey or Goonie or Red ( 93, 93, 99 )
  • RZ1A - Phoenix ( 90 )
  • RZ2A - Blue ( 99 )
  • Tie FO - Epsilon ( 78 )
  • Tie SF - Zeta ( 96 )
  • Torrent - Gold Squadron ( 75 )
  • B22 - Feet ( 102 )
  • Hyena - Techno Union ( 78 )
  • Vulture - Trade Fed ( 76 ) - Team of 4
  • N1 - Bravo ( 102 )

I dont want all of these generics or all large bases to become cheaper. I want Aces to be priced correctly (i.e. Right at 200 for 3 of them). Match most of these Teams of Three against pretty much any 60-80 pt Ace and they will lose the majority of the time vs a competent player. Exceptions are basically Teams of Three with access to rear arcs or defensive token stacks. But even the ones which are specifically teched to deal with Aces tend to struggle. Much less of a problem when there is only 1 pure ace to deal with in the end game. Some of the Large Bases have underperformed no doubt and will likely see minor pt deceases. But they arent the only thing in that point range that has suffered against cheap groups of Aces throughout 2.0's first year. I think FFG needs to address that problem consistently across all factions, without picking one or two factions per point cycle to get to be the 20 point bid Trip Ace of the season ( this isnt a Bid Rules problem either, its just undercosted things doing undercosted things). Push that stuff towards 200 across the board and ships we generally consider "bad" might start to see more play without significant buffs.

Other thing to add. It also sounds counter intuitive but if we want Large Bases to be more relevant in more lists we pretty much should be requesting less of them, or at least that their role in a list be more specific, so their costs can stay reasonable. Tavson, Hera, Lando, Lambdas, Ketsu, RAC have all seen play because they can do somethings well in an overall list without having to be the entire list. Not saying they have performed well but they definitely have shown signs of quality. Asking less of them leaves room in the list for a couple or even several other ships.

Wanting any 1 large base ship to basically be your list will end up poorly. That works only in the extreme ( Kanan Han, Dash Rorak ) and then gets nerfed into oblivion for semi obvious reason.

"Normal" Large Bases Do This Stuff:

  • 60-80 Points
  • Powerful Offense
  • Powerful Support
  • Limited Mobility
  • Limited Time On Target
  • Consistent Durability ( Basically high HP Count or Re-Enforce )
  • Extremely Fast flankers with 3 speed moves
  • Excellent Blockers
  • Deal with Swarms Well with 2 wingmates
  • Area Control ( i.e. Tavson/Hera )

"Rare" Large Bases Do This Stuff:

  • 80-100 Points
  • Reposition
  • Arc Dodge
  • Defensively Token Stack
  • Shoot Twice Per Turn
  • Always Have Arc On Target

Basically I don't think Time On Target and Mobility buffs are the only solution for making Large Bases more relevant. The better that is the higher their points have to be and costs end up high again as they become essentially Ace equivalents. Have them do a couple of the things well and the rest mediocre so they can function in that 60-80 point range and allow lists to even out matchups against the field (i.e. like Tavson/Hera do against Swarms). Pair that with properly costed Mobile Aces and I think they can find a more consistent home for a larger # of large bases in the meta without constantly walking the Dash Rorak line. Then FFG can really focus on making one or two very rare large base things like the YT1300 walk the Dash/Rorak line which seems like it takes a ton of careful iteration. Large bases dont need universal power creep to be relevant, they just need the aces to be costed properly.

Edited by Boom Owl
4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Revisionist history. Everyone who lived through the dark times of wave 4 knows Aces i.e. Phantoms specifically, fired the first shot in the arms race as they were only catachable by a 360 turret. Luckily, the poor design decisions of Phantoms haven't plagued 2.0 as well...*whistles nervously*

IN MY HUMBLE O 😜

Super Dash (sure why not BR and Boost and have a 4 die CANNON shoot 360), and Super Han (my ace can move anywhere and still shoot your ace)...

led to Autothrusters (I can stop ANY attack)

which led to hyper offensive mods

...... and eventually we got ENDLESS BOMBS.

But seriously, 😂😂😂 how I miss pre errata whisper. Decloaking after seeing board state.... ❤️❤️❤️

edit: oh I forgot. Remember predator came as a response to tie swarms when they were king. That was really early on tho

Edited by JBFancourt