2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Niman relies on use of Force powers to cover for deficiencies in blade work . This is what the book itself says. Use of Force powers are included in Form VI in order to compensate for its relaxed focus on bladework. The book states that explicitly. Form VI is weak on blade work compared to all other lightsaber forms. It is deficient in actual use of the lightsaber and compensates for this deficit by use of Force powers. That is my problem with it, as a form, and the problem that is specifically stated that many in universe Jedi Battlemasters have with the form.

Yeah. That’s been addressed. Your only response is to repeat yourself and not address specific responses. People don’t seem to share your “pure blade work” views.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Secondly, I have suggested alternatives. If the character intends to master the lightsaber and focus on combat, then I suggest taking one or more of Soresu, Ataru, or Shien. In fact, I suggest a combination of any two, or all three, and master them.

Eventually. Sorta. In response to someone else deep in the weeds on Niman and it has zero mechanical or system advice. It was all “this form, that form” generic setting statements. “Anything else is better, here’s 3 forms” is the response they were looking for.

16 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The only lightsaber form which was singled out as having every single practitioner wiped out was Niman . That is a key point. Even if there were only a 30 out of 214 survivors among the Jedi in that battle, those survivors had at least one or more practitioner each of Form I, Form II, form III, Form IV, and Form V represented within their numbers, but No practitioners of Form VI represented in their numbers.

It's not just me. Path of the Jedi also states as much. It specifically states, "Many Jedi Battlemasters do not consider Niman sufficiently demanding." It further goes on to mention that a Nima user will never be able to defeat a Makashi expert, but is useful for facing down criminals and thugs . And thus, for Jedi Consulars, it is a form that is easily mastered.

Many means not all, it explicitly means that some do consider niman sufficiently demanding, these would be the ones who have fully mastered it. Many doesn't even mean most.

The quote is

While it is true that i t would be nearly impossible for a Niman practitioner to defeat an expert in Makashi

1) nearly impossible specifically does not mean never,

2) it's stacking a niman practitioner against a makashi expert, the odds would change significantly if you stack a niman expert (one of those jedi battle masters who do consider niman sufficiently demanding because they have mastered it) against a makashi expert

Btw who would you think has devoted more effort into learning something a "practitioner" or "disciple"? The niman- disciple spec is the exception not the rule (rule = typical diplomat lightsaber slacker)

Quote

Page 74 of Path of the Jedi states in full: (bold mine for emphasis, except in title. Underlines in actual text. with annotations from Jedi.)

Note the key points here. Form Vi is the Moderation form. it's moderately effective, average , median , mediocre, just OK . Further, it states specifically that it is intended for, and primarily used by, Jedi Consulars. It is not intended for those who focus on combat.

There's so much wrong with the word chain, Moderation does not mean moderately effective, it does not mean average, median is a type of average, median does not mean mediocre

The quote is

Form Vi is the most balanced of all styles. It is not as precise as Form II, as defensive as Form III, as kinetic as Form IV, nor as dominating as Form V, but Form VI draws from all styles to create a hybrid form marked for its practicality .

it compares form iv against what the others are best at, let that sink in, niman gets compared to the best in every area.

but you seemed to have missed what it did not say.

It does not say form 6 is not as precise as form 3, 4, or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as defensive as form 2 4 or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as kinetic as form 2 3 or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as dominating as form 2 3 or 4.

it says it's the most balanced, implying that it beats/is better than the other forms at what they don't specialize in

Quote

To continue:

It is a hybrid form which is not as good as any of the other forms in what they do.

Close but no cigar, it is not as good as the other forms at what they specialize in, but being the most balanced it beats the other forms at what they don't specialize in

Quote

To continue:

Jedi Battlemasters do not consider Niman to be demanding enough. It's not a form that is suited for combat against trained combatants . It's only really effective as a last defense against criminals and thugs.

To continue:

You left out the "many" meaning someone who wants to be good at niman should learn from one of the battle masters who teaches it in a way that is sufficiently demanding

Quote

The annotation states:

It's difficult to use the Force as a weapon while trying to use a lightsaber too. I need more Practice.

-Kenobi

Quote

This is also a key point. A Niman user is essentially trying to do two things at once : Fight with a lightsaber, and use Force powers at the same time.

But for someone who has practiced enough to do it well it is extremely effective, and yeah it takes a lot of training to do it well, and the typical niman practitioner hasn't put that effort in.

Quote

So, yes, there are inherent deficiencies in the form itself. It is not designed for combat against trained professionals.

None of the quotes you quoted said that

Quote

Exactly, Niman is not designed for battle. Path of the Jedi is pretty clear on this as well. Makashi is relatively weak against multiple opponents, since it's intended for one-on-one duels, but it's not completely useless in those situations.

Makashi is canonically the worst form against blasters, yet a makashi practitioner presumably survived genosis, and niman which is canonically better than the worst against blasters did not. That specifically indicates a difference in the quality of the practitioners instead of the form.

You lose

13 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Niman relies on use of Force powers to cover for deficiencies in blade work .

No. What you're saying is that a non-Force-sensitive user of Niman who has no Force powers would be weak.

Not that Lightsaber forms that don't make excessive use of the Force even exist.

No Jedi has ever used this "pure bladework" you speak of.

Another thread that's going nowhere because nobody refuses to give up on winning the internet. 😞

16 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

Another thread that's going nowhere because nobody refuses to give up on winning the internet. 😞

True - if we just let Tramp be Tramp and moved on fewer threads would be devoured.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

True - if we just let Tramp be Tramp and moved on fewer threads would be devoured.

Insanity (noun): Trying to have a reasonable discussion with Tramp Graphics and expecting him to ever change his mind.

Maybe we skip the ad hominems?

It unnecessarily personalizes debates and tends to poison the well.

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Many means not all, it explicitly means that some do consider niman sufficiently demanding, these would be the ones who have fully mastered it. Many doesn't even mean most.

The quote is

While it is true that i t would be nearly impossible for a Niman practitioner to defeat an expert in Makashi

1) nearly impossible specifically does not mean never,

2) it's stacking a niman practitioner against a makashi expert, the odds would change significantly if you stack a niman expert (one of those jedi battle masters who do consider niman sufficiently demanding because they have mastered it) against a makashi expert

Btw who would you think has devoted more effort into learning something a "practitioner" or "disciple"? The niman- disciple spec is the exception not the rule (rule = typical diplomat lightsaber slacker)

There's so much wrong with the word chain, Moderation does not mean moderately effective, it does not mean average, median is a type of average, median does not mean mediocre

The quote is

Form Vi is the most balanced of all styles. It is not as precise as Form II, as defensive as Form III, as kinetic as Form IV, nor as dominating as Form V, but Form VI draws from all styles to create a hybrid form marked for its practicality .

it compares form iv against what the others are best at, let that sink in, niman gets compared to the best in every area.

but you seemed to have missed what it did not say.

It does not say form 6 is not as precise as form 3, 4, or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as defensive as form 2 4 or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as kinetic as form 2 3 or 5

It does not say form 6 is not as dominating as form 2 3 or 4.

it says it's the most balanced, implying that it beats/is better than the other forms at what they don't specialize in

Close but no cigar, it is not as good as the other forms at what they specialize in, but being the most balanced it beats the other forms at what they don't specialize in

You left out the "many" meaning someone who wants to be good at niman should learn from one of the battle masters who teaches it in a way that is sufficiently demanding

It's difficult to use the Force as a weapon while trying to use a lightsaber too. I need more Practice.

-Kenobi

But for someone who has practiced enough to do it well it is extremely effective, and yeah it takes a lot of training to do it well, and the typical niman practitioner hasn't put that effort in.

None of the quotes you quoted said that

Makashi is canonically the worst form against blasters, yet a makashi practitioner presumably survived genosis, and niman which is canonically better than the worst against blasters did not. That specifically indicates a difference in the quality of the practitioners instead of the form.

You lose

No. It's saying that even the best Niman users in the battle couldn't survive. That suggests the quality of the Form in combat situations.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It's saying that even the best Niman users in the battle couldn't survive. That suggests the quality of the Form in combat situations.

That suggests the quality of the form in one specific combat situation. To whit, a mass combat against a surrounding force of numerically superior foes using ranged attacks an an open field with very little cover to make use of. Were it not for Yoda's timely arrival with an army of clones armed with blasters and gunships , every single Jedi in that arena would have died irrespective of the form they trained in. Anakin Skywalker? Obi-Wan Kenobi? Mace Windu? All would have been dead in another minute.

Each form has strengths and weaknesses and the circumstances of the fight matter an awful lot when deciding which one will have the edge. Mass melee? Shii-Cho. In a traditional mano-a-mano duel? Makashi. In a highly mobile hit and run duel? Ataru. Massed modern combat? Soresu. Closing in small unit engagements? Shien. So what is Niman good for? Its solid for one one one duels or small unit engagements where you can make the most of your telekinetic abilities, and the users who will really shine with it are going to be powerful telekinetics.

In some ways Niman is the best overall form, which means every other form will be better than it at something .

On 1/12/2020 at 4:29 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

My “absolutist” stance, as you put it, is based upon the lore specifically establishing how weak Niman is in actual battle. As noted in the Visual Dictionary for AOTC, and other primary sources, every single Niman user in the Battle of Geonosis was killed in that battle. Not one survived . In a battle situation, Niman is the worst possible form to use. You have a far greater chance of survival if you use the other forms , especially Shii-Cho, Soresu, or Shien.

That says Niman is not good in mass combat. But then I suspect that is why Palpatine started a war so as to draw Jedi into a situation they are not really fit for.

2 minutes ago, Vondy said:

That suggests the quality of the form in one specific combat situation. To whit, a mass combat against a surrounding force of numerically superior foes using ranged attacks won a field with very little cover to make use of. Were it not for Yoda's timely arrival with an army of clones armed with blasters and gunships , every single Jedi in that arena would have died irrespective of the form they trained in. Anakin Skywalker? Obi-Wan Kenobi? Mace Windu? All would have been dead in another minute.

Each form has strengths and weaknesses and the circumstances of the fight matter an awful lot when deciding which one will have the edge. Mass melee? Shii-Cho. In a traditional mano-a-mano duel? Makashi. In a highly mobile hit and run duel? Ataru. Massed modern combat? Soresu. Closing in small unit engagements? Shien. So what is Niman good for? Its solid for one one one duels or small unit engagements where you can make the most of your telekinetic abilities, and the users who will really shine with it are going to be powerful telekinetics.

I disagree. Niman is passable for taking on thugs, and other relatively untrained opponents, as a last ditch defense, not trained warriors. It's not " good " for anything. It's "OK" for saving your butt as a last resort.

As you, yourself demonstrate, Niman relies upon telekinesis and other Force powers, not on the use of the lightsaber . The use of the Force is a crutch here. That is the problem with Niman. A swordsman dedicates his life the the mastery of the sword . Mastery of the blade in combat, not on other esoteric pursuits. That is why I harp so much about focusing exclusively on blade work. A master of any fencing form should be able to defeat his opponents with his blade alone . A Niman practitioner, no matter his level of expertise, cannot do that because the form does not dedicate itself to the rigors necessary to master the blade . Instead it relies upon the use of Force powers to compensate for its deficiencies resulting from a relaxed standard in blade work. That is the fatal flaw in Niman.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That says Niman is not good in mass combat. But then I suspect that is why Palpatine started a war so as to draw Jedi into a situation they are not really fit for.

Very true. The best forms for mass combat are Soresu, Shien, and Shii-Cho.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Niman is passable for taking on thugs, and other relatively untrained opponents, as a last ditch defense, not trained warriors. It's not " good " for anything. It's "OK" for saving your butt as a last resort.

As you, yourself demonstrate, Niman relies upon telekinesis and other Force powers, not on the use of the lightsaber . The use of the Force is a crutch here. That is the problem with Niman. A swordsman dedicates his life the the mastery of the sword . Mastery of the blade in combat, not on other esoteric pursuits. That is why I harp so much about focusing exclusively on blade work. A master of any fencing form should be able to defeat his opponents with his blade alone . A Niman practitioner, no matter his level of expertise, cannot do that because the form does not dedicate itself to the rigors necessary to master the blade . Instead it relies upon the use of Force powers to compensate for its deficiencies resulting from a relaxed standard in blade work. That is the fatal flaw in Niman.

Very true. The best forms for mass combat are Soresu, Shien, and Shii-Cho.

I wouldnt say that is a flaw of Niman. I would say you keep trying to misuse the form and thus claim it is bad. It is good for its intended purpose. Its intended purpose is defense of people less focused on combat.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It's saying that even the best Niman users in the battle couldn't survive. That suggests the quality of the Form in combat situations.

Question: how many Niman users actually took part in that battle? Other than Obi-wan and Anakin, that is.

Also, your primary source for all of this is The Jedi Path , which a fictional non-fiction book, and is thus written by a fictional character. All information in that book is subjective. Like Codex entries in a Dragon Age game.

15 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Question: how many Niman users actually took part in that battle? Other than Obi-wan and Anakin, that is.

Also, your primary source for all of this is The Jedi Path , which a fictional non-fiction book, and is thus written by a fictional character. All information in that book is subjective. Like Codex entries in a Dragon Age game.

From my understanding, reading the various source materials, by the time of the Prequels, Niman was the predominant form used among Jedi since they weren't expected to face highly trained combatants, nor other lightsaber wielders. They were primarily diplomats by this point, except for a relative few who chose to focus on the combat arts, particularly the lightsaber. So, it stands to reason that the vast majority of the slain at Geonosis were all Niman practitioners. This may not be entirely accurate , but that is my understanding.

18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I wouldnt say that is a flaw of Niman. I would say you keep trying to misuse the form and thus claim it is bad. It is good for its intended purpose. Its intended purpose is defense of people less focused on combat.

I would say it's a flaw of Niman. And, based upon the text in Path of the Jedi , it is also the opinion of the majority of Jedi Battlemasters. A sword school should teach mastery of the sword . A lightsaber form should teach mastery of the lightsaber. Niman doesn't teach mastery of the lightsaber . It teaches base proficiency in the lightsaber compensated by use of Force powers . That is the inherent weakness of Niman. It relies on the use of Force powers as a crutch to compensate for a relaxed focus on the use of the blade. That defeats the whole point of a sword school, or lightsaber form. The whole point of a sword school or lightsaber form, is mastery of the weapon itself. If the form is not devoted 100% to mastery of the weapon, it is not a good form. It is inherently flawed . And that gets people killed .

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

From my understanding, reading the various source materials, by the time of the Prequels, Niman was the predominant form used among Jedi since they weren't expected to face highly trained combatants, nor other lightsaber wielders. They were primarily diplomats by this point, except for a relative few who chose to focus on the combat arts, particularly the lightsaber. So, it stands to reason that the vast majority of the slain at Geonosis were all Niman practitioners. This may not be entirely accurate , but that is my understanding.

I would say it's a flaw of Niman. And, based upon the text in Path of the Jedi , it is also the opinion of the majority of Jedi Battlemasters. A sword school should teach mastery of the sword . A lightsaber form should teach mastery of the lightsaber. Niman doesn't teach mastery of the lightsaber . It teaches base proficiency in the lightsaber compensated by use of Force powers . That is the inherent weakness of Niman. It relies on the use of Force powers as a crutch to compensate for a relaxed focus on the use of the blade. That defeats the whole point of a sword school, or lightsaber form. The whole point of a sword school or lightsaber form, is mastery of the weapon itself. If the form is not devoted 100% to mastery of the weapon, it is not a good form. It is inherently flawed . And that gets people killed .

No it is you trying to impose an incorrect use of a form. Using something for a task it is not intended is going to fail. That is like complaining a philips screwdriver is terrible for turning nuts. Well yeah because you are using the wrong tool. I get that you personally prefer other forms because you prefer better fighting skills. That does not mean Niman is a bad form it just means it is not good for the task you want.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

From my understanding, reading the various source materials, by the time of the Prequels, Niman was the predominant form used among Jedi since they weren't expected to face highly trained combatants, nor other lightsaber wielders. They were primarily diplomats by this point, except for a relative few who chose to focus on the combat arts, particularly the lightsaber. So, it stands to reason that the vast majority of the slain at Geonosis were all Niman practitioners. This may not be entirely accurate , but that is my understanding.

It's a battle. The Jedi Order may have been a wee bit out of touch, but they wouldn't have sent diplomats who are bad at fighting.

Also, you have zero information here and don't know. You're guessing at best.

Quote

I would say it's a flaw of Niman. And, based upon the text in Path of the Jedi...

That's an episode of Rebels and something vague in Disneyland, not a text.

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Niman is passable for taking on thugs, and other relatively untrained opponents, as a last ditch defense, not trained warriors. It's not " good " for anything. It's "OK" for saving your butt as a last resort.

As you, yourself demonstrate, Niman relies upon telekinesis and other Force powers, not on the use of the lightsaber . The use of the Force is a crutch here. That is the problem with Niman. A swordsman dedicates his life the the mastery of the sword . Mastery of the blade in combat, not on other esoteric pursuits. That is why I harp so much about focusing exclusively on blade work. A master of any fencing form should be able to defeat his opponents with his blade alone . A Niman practitioner, no matter his level of expertise, cannot do that because the form does not dedicate itself to the rigors necessary to master the blade . Instead it relies upon the use of Force powers to compensate for its deficiencies resulting from a relaxed standard in blade work. That is the fatal flaw in Niman.

The fatal flaw in your proposition is the strange notion that the Marquis de Queensbury Rule applies in life and death combat. Real combat is not a sporting event or a show match with referees where everyone fights fair and sticks to the rules. A warrior brings everything he has to battle, which for Force users like Jedi includes telekinesis and other powers.

Is Niman inferior in terms of "pure" bladework? Sure. You win. I totally concede that point, but that's a "woulda-coulda-shoulda" argument. Unlike real world fencers Jedi have vast force powers to integrate into their combat systems. No Jedi is going to politely agree to fight with his hands tied behind his back and anyone who walks into a fight against a Jedi naively expecting them not to hit them with absolutely everything in their arsenal is a damned fool who deserves to die.

The fixation on the best "pure blade" style misses the mark.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I'm going to ask you to stop with the bold text abuse . Here and there is fine, but you are really overdoing it . I'm literate and don't need that much help comprehending what you are writing. Its both insulting and hard on the eyes.

11 minutes ago, Vondy said:

The fatal flaw in your proposition is the strange notion that the Marquis de Queensbury Rule applies in life and death combat. Real combat is not a sporting event or a show match with referees where everyone fights fair and sticks to the rules. A warrior brings everything he has to battle, which for Force users like Jedi includes telekinesis and other powers.

Is Niman inferior in terms of "pure" bladework? Sure. You win. I totally concede that point, but that's a "woulda-coulda-shoulda" argument. Unlike real world fencers Jedi have vast force powers to integrate into their combat systems. No Jedi is going to politely agree to fight with his hands tied behind his back and anyone who walks into a fight against a Jedi naively expecting them not to hit them with absolutely everything in their arsenal is a damned fool who deserves to die.

The fixation on the best "pure blade" style misses the mark.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I'm going to ask you to stop with the bold text abuse . Here and there is fine, but you are really overdoing it . I'm literate and don't need that much help comprehending what you are writing. Its both insulting and hard on the eyes.

Well said. Niman's flaw is that its practitioners dont focus on combat much because most of them are diplomats. The Reason they were at the battle is because they were who were available at the time.

21 minutes ago, Vondy said:

The fatal flaw in your proposition is the strange notion that the Marquis de Queensbury Rule applies in life and death combat. Real combat is not a sporting event or a show match with referees where everyone fights fair and sticks to the rules. A warrior brings everything he has to battle, which for Force users like Jedi includes telekinesis and other powers.

Is Niman inferior in terms of "pure" bladework? Sure. You win. I totally concede that point, but that's a "woulda-coulda-shoulda" argument. Unlike real world fencers Jedi have vast force powers to integrate into their combat systems. No Jedi is going to politely agree to fight with his hands tied behind his back and anyone who walks into a fight against a Jedi naively expecting them not to hit them with absolutely everything in their arsenal is a damned fool who deserves to die.

The fixation on the best "pure blade" style misses the mark.

A few plain and simple B1 battle droids with guns overpower a Jedi who is relying on pure bladework.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it is you trying to impose an incorrect use of a form. Using something for a task it is not intended is going to fail. That is like complaining a philips screwdriver is terrible for turning nuts. Well yeah because you are using the wrong tool. I get that you personally prefer other forms because you prefer better fighting skills. That does not mean Niman is a bad form it just means it is not good for the task you want.

Yes, it does. Niman is a fighting form. It's a martial art, a combat art. It is used to fight , and potentially kill opponents with a particular weapon . That is its purpose. That is the sole purpose of any weapon art. And it is a purpose for which it is ill suited . That is because it does not focus 100% upon the weapon for which it is ostensibly dedicated to . What good is a weapon form that doesn't give you the tools you need to allow you to defeat your opponents with just that weapon alone . IF, even a "Master" of the form has to rely upon telekinesis in order to compensate for the deficiencies in the use of the lightsaber inherent with the form, then it is a flawed form.

5 minutes ago, Vondy said:

The fatal flaw in your proposition is the strange notion that the Marquis de Queensbury Rule applies in life and death combat. Real combat is not a sporting event or a show match with referees where everyone fights fair and sticks to the rules. A warrior brings everything he has to battle, which for Force users like Jedi includes telekinesis and other powers.

Is Niman inferior in terms of "pure" blade-work? Sure. You win. I totally concede that point. Except its a "woulda-coulda-shoulda" argument. Unlike real world fencers Jedi have vast force powers to integrate into their combat style. No Jedi is going to politely agree to fight with the metaphorical equivalent of his hands tied behind his back, and anyone who walks into a fight against a Jedi naively expecting them not to hit them with absolutely everything in their arsenal is a damned fool who deserves to die.

The fixation on the best "pure blade" style misses the mark.

Also, I'm going to ask you to stop with the bold text abuse . Here and there is fine, but you are really overdoing it . I'm literate and don't need that much help comprehending what you are writing. Its both insulting and hard on the eyes.

And yet we see in history warriors, such as Miyamoto Musashi , who could dominate almost any opponent with just his weapon of choice. He didn't need to use other items or "tricks" to win. He could defeat any opponent, regardless of the weapon said opponent wielded, using just his sword (or bokken [a wooden sword]). Such was his mastery of the blade. This was true in mass battle as well.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well said. Niman's flaw is that its practitioners dont focus on combat much because most of them are diplomats. The Reason they were at the battle is because they were who were available at the time.

The form itself doesn't focus on lightsaber combat. This is stated explicitly in Path of the Jedi . To quote: "To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework, Form VI encourages intergrating Force powers into combat." Niman does not have anywhere near as strenuous a focus on blade work as any other lightsaber form. It was designed for its ease of mastery, and a relaxed focus on the lightsaber in order to accomplish that.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

A few plain and simple B1 battle droids with guns overpower a Jedi who is relying on pure bladework.

Bobi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, and many other Jedi defeated vast numbers of battle droids using just their lightsabers. They relied only on bladework .

All combat forms have their uses and what they are meant for. Niman is designed to be assistance to a political approach, it is not meant for an open battle field fight. The Jedi hadn't had those types of battle for a long time, so they adjusted their trained to match what they are required to do now. That is why there were so many of this form.

This would be like a person who is trained to fight with in rapier skirmishes sent to a full battle field, while they know how to fight they are not best prepared foe their environment. So they will struggle no matter how well they are trained at fighting rapier styles.

After the clone wars started the Jedi would have gone back to training and started to learn form 5 (blaster protection) style. Since that would be their new need, due to the massive change to their opponent.

Like all weapons, fighting styles they have strengths and weaknesses. So there is no one style that is the best overall, they make forms to fit the situation.

13 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

All combat forms have their uses and what they are meant for. Niman is designed to be assistance to a political approach, it is not meant for an open battle field fight. The Jedi hadn't had those types of battle for a long time, so they adjusted their trained to match what they are required to do now. That is why there were so many of this form.

This would be like a person who is trained to fight with in rapier skirmishes sent to a full battle field, while they know how to fight they are not best prepared foe their environment. So they will struggle no matter how well they are trained at fighting rapier styles.

After the clone wars started the Jedi would have gone back to training and started to learn form 5 (blaster protection) style. Since that would be their new need, due to the massive change to their opponent.

Like all weapons, fighting styles they have strengths and weaknesses. So there is no one style that is the best overall, they make forms to fit the situation.

No, there isn't. However, Niman doesn't have any actual strengths . That is its biggest weakness. The very fact that it has to rely upon the use of Force powers in order to compensate for anything is a huge inherent flaw in the form.

And, as for a rapier user in an open battle. No, the rapier is not meant for armored combat, particularly against plate armor. Neither is any sword really. In mass armored combat, a sword, is a back up weapon. However, the rapier is well suited for getting into the gaps between the plates in the armor because it is a very thin blade. So it is not completely ineffective in armored mass combat.

The Battle of Geonosis showed Niman to be basically useless in battle. It is only any good at taking on a handful of relatively untrained criminals and thugs, not hardened combatants.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Bobi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, and many other Jedi defeated vast numbers of battle droids using just their lightsabers. They relied only on bladework .

Except they didn't. They would have been shot dead before they got within melee distance without the Force.

Most Jedi at geonosis hadn't fought in a field battle during their time as a Jedi, so they were unprepared for the style of combat they were thrown in to. So many of the Niman Jedi fell during the battle cause their were so many who used that style since it fit their current need. Jedi who used other style fell as well, there were just less casualties since there were less trained in those forms.

Like in the Princess bride when fesik fight Wesley, he comments since he is so use to one style of fighting going back to another is difficult.

Most Jedi wouldn't bother knowing form 1 since they would have such low probability of fighting someone else with a lightsaber. So they learned the form that they would use the most.