16 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'm stupid and stubborn enough it might seem like bravery.

I'm sorry, but if you're trying to win the argument you're in through stubborness and stupidity, you're so outmatched it's not even funny.

On 1/16/2020 at 10:20 PM, StriderZessei said:

Anyone feel like crunching numbers to see what can survive a Juyo/Ataru with Unmatched Ferocity?

Asking for...a friend. 😁

On 1/16/2020 at 7:17 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Jedi: Knight/niman-disciple with peerless interception is a far stronger build than soresu defender + ataru striker. Peerless interception is the counter to saber swarm, and a far stronger defense than the entire soresu tree

Peerless interception is the counter to saber swarm/unmatched ferocity.... the attacker will strain themselves unconscious or possibly in the case of unmatched ferocity turn darkside (if they don't take strain instead of conflict). Jedi:knight/niman-disciple will be taking 3 strain peer round for the first use of parry that round, and will be stopping 11 damage of each hit. And will be able to at will trigger 1 improved parry and one weapon quality, I suggest a dragite gem and concussive 2 which means they won't be able to attack for 2 full turns and then drop 3 speeders on them. Game set match.

13 hours ago, Vondy said:

And you have empirically confirmed play test data that verifies this theory? Not just fuzzy head-math and intuitions, but brass tacks real world experience from repeated real world play scenarios? If not, then the impressive certitude with which you state your claim is just bluster and the entire discussion is just spitting into the wind.

Intellect 6 and Lightsaber 5 isn't any better than Willpower 6 and Lightsaber 5.

Soresu Technique and Niman Technique do the exact same thing for different stats.

Reflect talents are irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He's not shooting at you.

Defensive Circle is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He isn't attacking your allies .

Strategic Form is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He wants to attack you.

Defensive Stance is somewhat better than Defensive Training dice-wise but requires you to burn strain .

Supreme Parry only saves strain when you didn't attack the previous round. You skip attacks and sip tea?

The Soresu Defender does not have Draw Closer or Force Assault for extra successes or second chances.

The Soresu Defender will most likely be a Force Rating behind the Niman Disciple.

What the Niman Disciple isn't as good at is defending other people ... which doesn't matter in a duel.

Adding dice is generally better than upgrading dice (although despair gives a better chance to activate improved parry), defensive stance also costs a maneuver.

24 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Peerless interception is the counter to saber swarm/unmatched ferocity.... the attacker will strain themselves unconscious or possibly in the case of unmatched ferocity turn darkside (if they don't tale strain instead of conflict). Jedi:knight/niman-disciple will be taking 3 strain peer round for the first use of parry that round, and will be stopping 11 damage of each hit. And will be able to at will trigger 1 improved parry and one weapon quality, I suggest a dragite gem and concussive 2 which means they won't be able to attack for 2 full turns and then drop 3 speeders on them. Game set match.

How would you trigger Improved Parry if the attacker is triggering Vaapad Control and Hawk Bat Swoop? Not saying they'll never generate disadvantages, but it seems unlikely.

49 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

How would you trigger Improved Parry if the attacker is triggering Vaapad Control and Hawk Bat Swoop? Not saying they'll never generate disadvantages, but it seems unlikely.

Peerless interception has upgrades that let you do that once per round without needing threat/despair

36 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Peerless interception is as upgrades that let you do that once per round without needing threat/despair

Hacks! I call hacks!

EDIT: this was sarcasm.

5 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Hacks!

The upgrades are called "effortless counter" (1 free improved parry/reflect per round)

And "activate quality" (stack an item quality onto improved parry/reflect)

Knight with peerless interception does what soresu is supposed to do far better than soresu defender does it. Supreme parry and defensive stance might make combining soresu defender with knight and peerless interception worth while against a huge number of opponents, you'd be spending 3 strain per round, stopping I think 11 points of damage per hit, and relying on improved parry to dish out, guaranteed to dish out 1 per round hoping for despairs for additional hits.

Personally I think it knight and peerless interception combines better with niman-disciple

Knight+peerless interception+niman-disciple would have a better chance of surviving genosis than knight+peerless interception+soresu defender. The only 2 spec combo that might beat it's ability to survive genosis is knight+peerless interception+shien expert because of supreme parry means you only spend 1 strain per round but you'd also be stopping less damage

49 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Hacks! I call hacks!

EDIT: this was sarcasm.

The technical term is "riposte" I think.

16 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The question is "Lackluster" compared to what? Put that guy up against a Soresu Defender with Intellect 6, Lightsaber 5, Soresu Technique, Parry, Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, Supreme Parry, Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance, Strategic Form. The Soresu Defender will mop the floor with the Niman master. You put a master of Niman against a master of any of the other five forms, all else being equal , and the Niman user will lose.

Challenge accepted . So is this a one spec only challenge in which case attributes top out at 5, plus a dedication so 6, checking the box. Are we doing human. Assuming we have all the talents in the tree. Does niman-disciple get the move force power to make use of force assault or do you want a "pure blade work" competition. I'm assuming orokos.com for dice rolls. Do you want to start a new thread or roll in this one. Are we allowing destiny points? Are we using basic lightsabers? Users choice of vigilance/cool for initiative. Are we doing starting skills plus lightsaber boosted to 5, or something like 70 -> 100 xp for skills?

5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Adding dice is generally better than upgrading dice (although despair gives a better chance to activate improved parry), defensive stance also costs a maneuver.

So... in terms of statistical success vs. failure (not counting "big roll results" like despair) Defensive Training is somewhat better than Defensive Stance and it doesn't cost a maneuver or strain?

Somehow I'm not feeling very lackluster about Niman.

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

So... in terms of statistical success vs. failure (not counting "big roll results" like despair) Defensive Training is somewhat better than Defensive Stance and it doesn't cost a maneuver or strain?

Somehow I'm not feeling very lackluster about Niman.

Defensive Training does not stack with a Defensive trait on a saber. If both are using a basic saber, then Defensive Training is a big benefit. OTOH, someone can still use Defensive Stance and a hilt that provides Defensive X while the Niman Disciple gains nothing from his Defensive Training (other than the very flavorful benefit of not having to constantly equip himself specifically for defense).

Lightfoil (Defensive 2) with a modified Lorrdian Gemstone (Defensive +1) and a modified curved hilt (Defensive +1) grants a total of Defensive 4 and makes a great offhand weapon. Or, you could just use a shield.

30 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Defensive Training does not stack with a Defensive trait on a saber. If both are using a basic saber, then Defensive Training is a big benefit. OTOH, someone can still use Defensive Stance and a hilt that provides Defensive X while the Niman Disciple gains nothing from his Defensive Training (other than the very flavorful benefit of not having to constantly equip himself specifically for defense).

Lightfoil (Defensive 2) with a modified Lorrdian Gemstone (Defensive +1) and a modified curved hilt (Defensive +1) grants a total of Defensive 4 and makes a great offhand weapon. Or, you could just use a shield.

Not sure that's true anymore after the errata to make defense work more like genesys

But defensive training does stack with defense granted by armor, so 2 defense from armor and defensive training 2 gets you to the max of 4, so... then committing a force die to the sense defense double upgrade.

6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The upgrades are called "effortless counter" (1 free improved parry/reflect per round)

And "activate quality" (stack an item quality onto improved parry/reflect)

So what you're saying is, it's better to use a Juyo/Ataru with Unexpected Demise and hope to roll a double triumph and destroy the Guardian's saber? 😛

1 hour ago, StriderZessei said:

So what you're saying is, it's better to use a Juyo/Ataru with Unexpected Demise and hope to roll a double triumph and destroy the Guardian's saber? 😛

Sabers can't be sundered according to RAW

28 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Sabers can't be sundered according to RAW

They can be but it takes 2 triumphs and a talent I believe.

31 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They can be but it takes 2 triumphs and a talent I believe.

I think its "just" 2 Triumphs.

They can also be disarmed - Aim (GM dependent) or Move.

18 hours ago, StriderZessei said:

Anyone feel like crunching numbers to see what can survive a Juyo/Ataru with Unmatched Ferocity?

Asking for...a friend. 😁

Pre Emptive avoidance works pretty well especially with Force Leap.

You would not believe how many Lightsaber duels I've won using Sage Healer Niman by going

PreEmptive avoidance thats nice you have saber swarm and Unmatched Ferocity, all those attacks don't mean anything because I'm not in melee range anymore...

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Sabers can't be sundered according to RAW

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

They can be but it takes 2 triumphs and a talent I believe.

Sabers can't be sundered, but scoring 2 Triumphs lets you destroy an enemy's weapon, no sunder required.

F&D core page 212, spending advantage and triumph table:

2 Triumph: “Destroy the lightsaber an opponent is wielding. At GM’s discretion, the crystal may be salvaged from the destroyed lightsaber and installed in a new hilt, with any modifications intact”.

You don’t even need it to be a successful attack check.

2 hours ago, Decorus said:

Pre Emptive avoidance works pretty well especially with Force Leap.

You would not believe how many Lightsaber duels I've won using Sage Healer Niman by going

PreEmptive avoidance thats nice you have saber swarm and Unmatched Ferocity, all those attacks don't mean anything because I'm not in melee range anymore...

For your consideration:

I’d say Preemptive Avoidance negates Hawk Bat Swoop. HBS includes this possibility in it’s full text: “If the character cannot move to engage the target, the attack automatically misses.”

However I just noticed HBS also says “The character may spend FP before resolving success or failure of the check to engage the target immediately as an incidental, and ...”. So maybe the Ataru can use another incidental to re-engage if they have a force point (and then preemptive avoidance again for a DP?)

13 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

F&D core page 212, spending advantage and triumph table:

2 Triumph: “Destroy the lightsaber an opponent is wielding. At GM’s discretion, the crystal may be salvaged from the destroyed lightsaber and installed in a new hilt, with any modifications intact”.

You don’t even need it to be a successful attack check.

That's what I was missing, it's been a while since I looked at that table... and both sides (GM, PCs) of my live play table has agreed not to take away destroy gm/pc's lightsaber (having it drop at their feet to burn a maneuver is ok though)

Its almost 100% guaranteed that a player will flip a destiny point to avoid having their Saber sundered.

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

Its almost 100% guaranteed that a player will flip a destiny point to avoid having their Saber sundered.

That doesn't have to be allowed. This is very much a "mother may I?" game with the GM when it comes to Destiny points (outside of specific talents and signature abilities). Sometimes, it's best if mother says NO.